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So what was the consequence here? A piece of paper? The first strike, of a three strike and maybe your out policy? I have boys that might work on, but I also have boys that are going to take the second swing, just because there is no real consequence (or just another piece of paper). I bet the only way his parents will find out is if you tell them.

Who cleaned up the latrine after the boy? Was his mother there to do it? Did the SPL do it? Did you do it? The boy should at least have to clean up after himself (if not everyone else for that day).

I had a boy (my girlfriends son) throw his candy bar wrapper on the ground at camp one morning then walked off. I had him police the entire camp by himself. Believe me, he didn't like it. And it was the first thing out of his mouth when he saw mom. "I had to clean up the whole camp by myself yesterday!" He told her the truth when she asked why. Her response was, "I bet that won't happen again."

Now that he is the SPL, he keeps an eye on people and their trash.

Everyone here has good points and ideas. I agree with most everything said here. But one thing, the fear of failing because of the group activity. We do a lot of things as a group. This particular boy has no problem doing other things and failing in front of the group. These boys are his friends and most of the time offer encouragement. But it brings up another thought. Maybe there is an underlying thing about water that none of us (including his grandmother) have detected and the boy won't admit to or even realizes himself. All he knows is that he doesn't like the water. One thing I think might help, is that if his grandmother would bring him to the swimming activities at the YMCA so that he can see the other boys swimming and having fun and to allow the peer thing to work for him. She just lets him stay home. We have even had committee meetings at the Y on that night, and she doesn't even come to those because he doesn't want to come there for the swimming.

So, its got to be something with the water (coupled with being spoiled).

I wish I could figure this one out!

Yes, I agree that the advancement process cannot be circumvented without good reason(and approval).

I haven't placed any unnecessary emphasis on requirements nor do I push the scout any more that I feel I should. If a boy doesn't want to advance and is having a good time, then maybe I have done my job. But when a boy says he wants to advance, but then refuses to fulfill certain requirements to meet his goals, all I can do is as I have stated, point out his dilema to him, and maybe a suggestion on how to overcome it and then allow him do as he sees fit. I can't recommend a variation on a requirement just because a boy doesn't want to do it. There must be a compelling reason, a physical or emotional problem that prevents him from completing the task (being classified as TOW might be enough).

The new boys taking the first year campers program at summer camp can be tenderfoots in a months, depending on their level of participation in the troop activities (we have one new boy who is competitive and a real go-getter).

This happening may be benefit the advancement of those who are more competitive, but may prove detrimental to others.

Regardless of being in scouts or not. I feel every person should learn to swim at least enough to save thier own life if the need should arise.(This message has been edited by scoutmaster424)

I have lived in a river community all my life. My siblings and I were required by our parents to learn to swim at an early age and had to at least pass what the Red Cross called advanced swimming. I learned to swim when I was 4 or 5. And spent my summers at the swimming pool or in the river. I can't remember ever not being able to swim and can not imagine anyone not wanting to, or at least not learning enough to be able to save themselve. Found out later that it was because dads brither had drowned in 1946.

I had no experience with people who wouldn't swim or were classified as TOW (Terrified of Water) until I was about 15 and saw a woman burn to death on the back of a cabin cruiser because she wouldn't go into the water. Not even with rescuers there waiting to help her the minute she jumped. Then later I had a young boy in a swim class I was helping with that was TOW. After 2 years, he would stand in the shallow water without holding on to anyone or anything, but still wouldn't put his face in the water. It was still a big achievement for the boy. You could see the terror in his eyes but also the elation that he had taken this small step.

The scout in my unit is not like that though. He will get in the water, play around, doesn't need anyone close by, he just won't try to swim.

His grandmother has enrolled him in lessons at the YMCA (Troop swims 1st and 3rd Mondays here, but he refuses to come). ALl we can hope is that he will overcome his hardheadedness and do it!

I agree with sctmom, too. If this boy did this not knowing it was wrong (I taught my son and my girlfriends son, that you raise the lid and the seat aim for the center the lower the seat and lid when they are finished), I would be concerned about other developmental problems showing up. If it was for any other reason, let him clean up for a day or two, he will realize quick, that it won't be tolerated.

I still send the boys back in to clean up the mess (they have to clean the entire toilet if they don't raise the seat, not just the seat)or lower the lid when they "forget."

I have a similar problem with one of my 12 years old scouts excpet that he refuses to do any of the swim requirements and has for over a year. He is still a tenderfoot.

He says he doesn't like the water and isnt' going to do it.

When I ask him about his plan for advancement though, he tells me he wants to make eagle by the time he is 15 or 16. Then I ask him how he plans to get beyond tenderfoot when he refuses to do the swimming requirements. He doesn't have an answer. I feel he thinks that I will eventually cave in and advance him with or without the requiremnts complete.

Boy is he wrong! (his grandmother is prominant on the troop committee, but he doesn;t know that she agrees with me.)

I tell him that after he does the second and first class requirements, that he doesn't have to swim again if he didn't want to, but so far, he hasn't bought into the fact that he needs to do this.

He doesn't claim to be terrified of the water, just that he doesn't know how and has no interest in learning.

I realize this may be the toughest thing he has ever had to do. I feel he too has been allowed to give up easily and quickly (or just not try in the first place.)

Any suggestions for this scout?

We just had out 10 day out meeting for Camp Friedlander and it looks to be a good time. The new camp looks great, the new lake is awesome. Spoke to some of the unit leaders out there too, and their reviews were good, except for the mention of the typical first day hectics. I am looking forward to it. I will let you know of our experience on the 29th.

Spork, Will you coming to Peterloon this October?

And here I thought some scotus leaders fingers were as dyslexic as mine?

SPL or PL for the leader

In a one patrol troop you don't need both.

I called him the PL and he acted as SPL when it came to dealing with the SM and ASM('s). To me Senior Patrol leader implies that there are other Patrol Leaders and he is the top dog.

Whatever, T337SM's troop wishes to use, it is their choice, and neither is wrong.

T337SM,

If you want common sense, then do what Bob White describes above. I have been doing it for a year or so now and it seems to be working fine.

We are teaching the patrol method, not the troop method. If you teach them to be a patrol now, they will teach it to the new scout patrol later. Then when you have two patrols, you can teach them to be a troop.

We do our recruiting from 3 small towns and the 3 surrounding townships, I really don't think I will have enough boys for two full patrols, if I ever have enough for two patrols.

If we were to do this strictly "by the book" which has no provisions for one patrol troops, then we would not have our troops, would we? I think the book writers are giving us credit for being able to make the adaptations for this situation. As I said earlier, using the spirit of the book, not the letter.

Sctmom is right. These do keep everything together and helps keep things from getting forgotten. Also, if your charter organization is a church, you can put an add in thier bulletin about your needs (especially the small stuff, i.e., flatware, strainers, etc) People will clean out thier kitchens for you. Our CO is a church and we did this, the next Sunday, there were three boxes of stuff from flatware, napkins, towels, cups, cooking utinsels, coffee pots, even a teapot!

Here are the links for both.

Project Cart PJC2500

http://www.suncast.com/utilitystorage/38/pjc2500/

Barbeque and Garden Cart BGC2000

http://www.suncast.com/lawnandgarden/19/bgc2000/

Took me a while to find them. They put them is what I think were odd locations on the website. Also, if you email them, they will respond promptly with pricing and where to get them in your area.

Hope this helps!

Since there is no written policy or procedure for a one patrol troop, those of us that have that situation are left with using the policy and procedures that are in the BSA literature as a guide in how to establish and operate our troops until such a time we can build up to the small troop example you cited. And hopefully we will have enough to fill all the jobs.

I know Bob posts the BSA policy, procedures, and literature, but I see it as a good thing.

I agree with Bob White here. I am also a "by the book" kind of guy, but take another look at the example of the small troop, it shows more than one patrol! Not the case here. Sometimes common sense must prevail and you need to take the spirit of the book into account and not the letter. If you have only one patrol, there is no PLC and you really don't have troop meetings, but patrol meetings, therefore, no need for a SPL. We did exactly as Bob White is suggesting in out troop.

Also, ian_au has a good suggestion. We too have been trying to do things with other troops and the idea is catching on in my area. Our troop began as T337SM's troop and we were "attached," so to speak, to another troop due to adult leadership issues. This particular relationship didn't work out, but we are planning and doing things with another neighboring troop who also has adult leadership problems. We are also planning to do activities with other small troops in the area.

All this is to bring inter-patrol activities as well as inter-troop activities to the boys in an attempt to help them learn and grow.

eisely has a point. Our troop is new with young boys and we do more of what he calls car camping. We frequent places where we can get into or close to with our vehicles. We do not have a storage problem either(unless you call lots of small stuff on shelves a problem), but we do have nearly enough small equipment and goods for the three patrol boxes we plan to buy. Then most of the small stuff will be stored in there. All of the patrols equipment will be kept in the box. Even the backpack stoves, etc. We use totes too. This works for us. It might not work for others. Each will have to decide what would be best for them.

By the way, I have typed the words Patrol box, Camp Box, and every other name I coould think of for these things into several search engines and have come up with practically the same thing. Wooden boxes with one drop side, with two drop sides, and one or two variations, I have all that I found downloaded and in a zip file. If you want it, email me and I will send it to you.(This message has been edited by scoutmaster424)

Our troop found every downloadable patrol box we could find and considered all of them as a replacement for our large wooden box that the boys can not(nor do they want to)carry.

We saw a troop that used Rubermaid Garden Carts for patrol boxes (modified a bit) and a table. Our boys liked these because they were lighter, smaller and much easier to handle. They said they liked them better than anything they could build. So we are going to give them a try.

We are now raising the money for the (3)new boxes and tables at a cost of about $100.00 for each set. The only ones we found though were made by Suncast and were the BGC2000 (about $65.00)and now I see they have a PJC2500. They look similar.

We hope to have these soon, modified and in service. I can let you know how they work out but it might be a month or two.(This message has been edited by scoutmaster424)

First of all, I want to thank everyone for their advice here. I will keep it in mind for the next time a situation comes up like this.

Secondly, It seems this father isn't as shallow as he seemed. When I saw him Wednesday evening, he did bring it up, but he apologized for "Going off" on me about the subject and that he realized he had no business doing so. He realized his grudge against the CC had no bearing here and that the CC really wasn't the "bad person" he said he was. He said everything is fine and his son will be staying in the troop, just don't expect him to be all "Hugs and Kisses" (his words, no kidding) when he sees the CC.

I seem to have a bit of trouble dealing with conflict. Probably because I just don't like it and hope things can work out without it, but also because I am just not too good at it.

So again, thank you for the help and the great input.

YIS

scoutmaster 424

Yes, I think you are right. I will see him in about 2 hours and I am sure we will get it discussed then. He seems to just have a grudge because they "lost" the case. He had similat stories about his divorce atty. Can't make everyone play nice can we?

I think he will perceive my taking up for the boy as taking up for the CC. Maybe it is. I defend my leaders when I feel the leader is right. Whatever the dads beef is, it doesn't belong in scouting and I will do my best to not let it in.

I wonder what will happen if he decides to let the boy stay and he meets up with the CC at the next COR?

Thanks for the adviece. I will letyou know how it ends.(This message has been edited by scoutmaster424)

No substance that I have been made aware of, I just get the impression that he is angry over "losing" the legal thing. Blames the lawyer for the case not going thier way. This situation is also blamed for the divorce.

I think there is more to it than I know, or even want to for that matter. And, of course, the CC won't discuss it (confidentiality stuff). I have asked him for a suggestion and he has taken the hands off approach, told me to let him know what happens. I am sure he knows the situation and probably knows it is no use talking to the guy.

I think any issue where the CC is involved will get his dander up. He doesn't understand how tough it is for us to get leaders. I am going to suggest he become an active leader. With our wanting to keep the distance between the CC and the boys, that would almost insure that the CC would be excluded except for the BOR's and COR's.

I will be seeing the father tonight. I am sure he will bring it up.

I was just hoping that in the course of the day that someone would give me that magical phrase that would make this thing go away, with the boy still here.

Added note. I emailed the CC since this post and he basically said he knows the situation and it calls for a hands off approach where he is concerned (assumingly they have already had words over the matter sometimein the past and he doesn't wish to repeat that). I guess it is up to the father to decide now.(This message has been edited by scoutmaster424)

As I have posted elsewhere, we have a small troop, few leaders, etc. Our CC is a County Court Judge and has a private practice on the side. He is also the only leader without a boy in scouts.

One of my scout fathers has brought to my attention that he has a personal problem with the CC. Seems the Father hired him before he was CC and evidently is still very displeased with the outcome of that and now despises the CC.

He has threatened to pull the boy out of the troop and frankly, I think he will.

I explained to him that the CC has little to do with the boys on a regular and that we intend to keep it that way as a general rule due to issues with BOR's, etc. But the CC will, however, on occasion participate in certain activities in which I require his help as an adult leader. The CC will be attending Summer Camp a couple days due to us needing to meet the leadership requirements.

The father has stated that he will keep the boy from Summer Camp now even thought the boy has performed the service hours needed for maximum campership benefits and is exceptionally excited about going (his first year).

The father obviously doesn't have all the facts of the matter (it seems complicated to me) but insists that our CC is a bad person and that he wants him to have nothing to do with his son.

I have tried to explain that the CC is not a bad person and that I am sure there were compelling reasons for whatever happened. I have also told him that this is for the boy and that him not liking the CC should stop the boy from enjoying scouting (the boy know s nothing of the situation and thinks the CC is a pretty cool guy).

I have also told him that I felt he should take the wait and see approach and monitor things before doing anything rash.

Does anyone have any suggestions as to how I can approach this so that the boy stays in the troop (which is where the boy wants to be)? The boy is bright and intelligent and has already shown leadership qualities in spite of his newness. I hate to loose him.

Sorry for the long post and thanks for listening.

I think FScouter is on the right track, but maybe you could also try having the boys do a reflection activity about the campout trip and have them produce their own checklist of things not to forget. Teach them the responsibility. The parents who went on the trip could also be involved in the reflection to guide the boys so that most things get on the list.

I also agree with Bob White, let there be consequences for them taking as long as they want. On our last campout, we had to skip cracker barrel (peach cobbler) because the boys started dinner late (the fish were biting like you wouldn't believe) and didn't get cleaned up until nearly lights out. The boys were told that would happen, but they still took nearly two hours to get cleaned up!

Old grey eagles point is good too. Our boys forgot the ketsup and mustard (we had hot dogs for one meal). So the boys roasted the first dog and ate them without anything. Then they got in the food box and patrol box and found this and that. The rest of the hot dogs were "fried" in the lid of a dutch oven in a concoction known to no man, but the hot dogs actully tasted pretty good. The comment was, "Who needs ketsup and mustard? I am sure it will be remembered next time!

sctmom quoted the website "in June 1943, the Supreme Court ruled that school children could not be forced to recite it (The PLedge).

I would have thought that would be enough to have the lawsuit thrown out. The way I understand it, the guy doesn't want his daughter to be forced to say the pledge in school.

I bet even though he doesn't say the pledge because the word GOD is in it, that he still uses the money!(This message has been edited by scoutmaster424)

When I was Cubmaster (2 years) I think the best advise I received was this:

You are now 9 years old again, think like it, have fun with it (it doesn't hurt to act like it at times too).

Don't be afraid to do things that the boys will laugh at (and get the other adults to do it too). The adults in our pack would do skits etc at the B & G and other 'big' meetings. It lets the adults know that it is okay to have fun, and the boys know that it is okay to laugh at the adults once in a while. Some of the most memorable times in Cub Scouting was when the adults got up in front and made fools of themselves, The boys loved it.

Also, Find out what the boys like to do and want to do and try to include as much of that in your program as possible. You won't be able to please everyone all at once, but you have the beast chance at pleasing most in the long run.

Maybe I should also be a little less "thin skinned" Mike, but I took your comments to sm101 to be about me.

As for the books and resources, I get chastised by the wife because I sit and read and read and read and that it seems I think of nothing but scouting (as if there is anything else, LOL). It's an old story from what I understand.

When we first started the troop, we were "pushed" into it when we were not ready by a fairly new DE that seemed to want to use us to "get his numbers up." We were "attached" to a nearby troop that I was told had a very good program. This went on for about 4 months. That relationship ended unfortunately due to conflicts with their CC. I lost three boys because of it.

That SM of that troop is our Unit Commissioner and a member of our troop committee. He is also a good friend. But still my troop won't do activities with his because of the situation before. Also, I have had the good fortune of becoming friends with a new scoutmaster of a 6-boy troop who has leadership problems too and we are doing joint activities, so I guess we can learn together. Enough said about this.

Back to smaster101's original question. Should patrol elections be more structured...?

To make my point more clearly, I don't think it matters much how the up to 8 boys in the patrol vote. Be it secret ballot, a show of hands, voting booths, someone will always complain about fairness, it being rigged, or whatever because they (or their son) did not win. Oh, I guess you could make the candidates leave the room during the vote, assuming they would vote for themselves anyway. They can be told the outcome after the vote and the ballots are gone (wouldnt want them to recognize handwriting). But I would bet they would know who voted for whom in the first 5 minutes back in the room.

By the way, 10 minutes after or elections were over, the grandmother of the boy who didn't win the SPL election complained to me that the winner talked all of the other boys into voting for him (Isn't that called a campaign? Getting the voters to vote for you?). I told her that I couldn't do anythng about it. What I didn't tell her is that I knew why he wasn't elected (he is a bit spoiled and has a bit of trouble getting along with others) and hopefully, I can do something to help that.

I have stated in other posts that mine is a new troop. All the boys in the "experienced" patrol are the same rank (tenderfoot), have pretty much the same leadership training and are all 11 to 13 years old. The new scout patrol is another matter. Everyone is a first time leader (except the SPL) so none of them have been able to show much leadership. Along with that, all of the adult leaders are also new with onlythe minimal training so far.

No older scouts, No higher ranks, none with more experience, and none more mature than the others (at least not remarkably). And we are doing the best we can. Right or wrong. So, we are trying to train the leaders that are elected, that the boys wanted as their leaders and give them the chance to do their best. If things don't go to well, then another boy can take the position and see what he can do. If the patrol or troop falters or fails, then I guess I will shoulder the "blame" and deal with it the best I know how.

I have found, in my reading of this entire forum and from the few posts that I have made, that many of you tend to forget that some of us don't have the adult scouting experience, youth scouting experience, and training (yet), than it seems most of you have and that we are here trying to learn something from those of you who do.