kd6rxy

It appears that since the last Troop Committee meeting that I no longer have the confidence of its members. Not sure exactly why, but that is what I got out of things. It seems that I have offended those members whose boys are part of the troop junior leadership and have also been the root of most of the problems in the troop concerning the lack of teamwork, unacceptable personal interaction between the boys in the troop, and thier refusal to accept any of the responsibility in thier junior leadership rolls in the troop.

So, I have offered my resignation and it was accepted by the majority of the troop committee. Since I live in a small town, with only this one troop, and I do not wish to travel, I am also leaving scouting.

There will come a time in the future when I will once again take up scouting, but until then I want to thank you all for your input and support and let you know that I appreciate each of you.

I agree with all, but oust the mother and suspend the boy. If he wishes to return, the let it be without mom, otherwise, he doesn't return.

As far as the form letter, the first written can (and usually does in our troop) become the "form" for all subsequent letters of the same nature. None of us like to do things more than once.

ASM7,

Thanks, I did get to the website. I brought up the idea at the TC meeting and they thought it was a great idea. The CC even said he knew a couple of ladies (and gentlemen) that would be willing to help us out with this.

Rooster7,

I also like your rewrite of the rules too. I have not had the time yet to put my imagination to it, but I think there are a lot of good ideas coming out of this.

It was suggested earlier that this could possibly be an eagle requirement, but that was all, no discussion.

And I agree that ASM7's troop has a good approach, but I disagree that it could or should be considered strictly "military."

Dinner parties and gatherings have been going on outside the military since who knows when and proper behavior and manners were expected of those participants just the same. The military just put it in writing and made this part of their program.

I see nothing wrong with taking this program from the military and reworking it to fit our situation by removing the particularly military aspects from it.

I don't think that a boy of any age would like to be looked down upon as the ill mannered heathen, in fact, with proper reinforcement from the adults (a pat on the back), I think the boy may even begin looking for the proper ettiquette to display in any given situation.

Once again, we have pretty much isolated this discussion to meal time and that is fine, but please remember that there are other times and places where proper ettiquette needs to be used.

Just spent a week in camp with 4 other troops. I don't mind the boys calling me by my first name. But I found it refreshing and I admired the boys who, when they knew my first name and that they could use it, still called me Mr. Germann. Their parents are doing a great job!

Bob White

Glad to hear you are all well. What a vacation! Wow, 18 days. The last time I was off work that long, I was looking for a job!

By the way, I may not have caught that if we hadn't discussed it a bit earlier in the thread.

It just seems to me that if BSA thought it was important enough to create a merit badge for one thing (Family Life) that should be taught in the home (and obviously hasn't been), then maybe they should take a look at this one. I thnk we all agree that proper ettiquette is important, we all just have different ideas (and some darned good ones at that) about where it should be taught.

ASM7's troop has a good program established, I hope he can help me out so I can get one started in my troop. I wish more of us had some type of established part of our program on this subject that we could share.

ASM7

Wonderful aproach. I will check out the website. Pretty much just the thing I was looking for.

Thanks for your post!

You wouldn't happen to have this ettiquette class written down where you could email it to me would you?(This message has been edited by scoutmaster424)

I see it, but I don't know if it makes it right. I have no idea what the BSA policy was on this issue at the time of those drawings and photos.

According to todays insignia guide as Fscouter quotes, some of these are acceptible and some are not.

I am not changing my position, but I think I will bring this up at the troop committee meeting tonight and see what they have to say about the issue.

Hey, Bob White,

Does the Family Life Merit Badges expose the boy to a hobby, career or recreational activity?

Seems to me it deals with life skills.

Haven't seen you post lately, hope everything is well with you.(This message has been edited by scoutmaster424)

Yeah, but I guess you could put the boys in an environment where they would have fun, but the parent might have reservations about thier son being there. Even at a place like a Boy Scout Summer Camp.

One of the complaints from a few parents on parents night was the rudeness of the lady at the front desk when they came in. One parent said that if she had let that first impression guide her, her son would have gone home with her. So it doesn't take much for people to think something is unsuatable for thier child.

Don't have a bible handy, but weren't the letters to Corinthia written after the time of Christ?

And don't you have to know the author's definition of short?

Way off the subject now!(This message has been edited by scoutmaster424)

I was told the reason for Family night is so the parents see the camp and to make them feel they want to send their son there next year.

I think the best I've seen is the camp had family night on Friday. They were invited for dinner ($6 seemed steep for a piece of chicken or two andsome mashed potatoes and salad.), a tour of the camp and closing campfire. At closing campfire the troops paraded into the ampetheater(?) with the Troop being announced along with SM and SPL. Each troop that was performing skits, etc did their thing and the parents were there to see. If homesickness overtook the boys then, they could just pack up and go home with mom & dad (with the promise they would show up the next afternoon to help unload and stow the troop gear, of course). All they were going to do was sleep, pack up and leave the next morning anyway.

If I had to vote for what night parents night should be and I couldn't pick none, then I'd pick Friday.

Camp Friedlander had it on Wednesday, disruptive, fostered homesickness in the middle of the week,

Eagle74 -

I can see why you are proud of the facility. It looks great and was run well for their first year.

Do we know each other?

Maybe I will see you at Peterloon!

Acco40

Don't know that I can disagree with what you said nor do I think I want to. As I recall, the MCJROTC wear their hats everywhere. I've never seen them in church.

Except to say that I was brought up that men uncover in church and women do not (except in a synagogue and I have no experience there).

I admit, I don't have all the answers to this one. But I think as time permits, I will persue it a bit further. I have yet to hear from the Lt. Col. in charge of the MCJROTC at the High School.

acco40,

I like it when you play this way!

Since being in an arena such as this would pose a unique set of circumstances, I would first have to consult Emily Post (but let's not go there). And since you are presenting me the scenario of the hats being requested worn, I would first have to ask the promoter his opinion (but that shouldn't matter). And since the color guard would more than likely start out in the tunnel (indoors), and I would want to do it "by the book," My first thought would be to have them not wear their hats.

But I have seen this at a hockey game in the Firstar Center (now the US Bank Arena) and they did wear their hats and it was definitely indoors. The regulation in the isignia guide says that hats can be worn. A lot of these posts (as my own) say no way.

I have also seen the local ROTC color guard at indoor events, but for the life of me, I can't remember if they had their hats on or off.

But after looking at a picture of the stadium, i would have to say yes to indoors and no to hats. I would have to have a compelling reason to change my opinion.

But let's face it, This is a good scenario, but I won't hold my breath waiting for anything like it to happen to us.

I do need to brush up on my color guard ettiquette (there is that word again) and then write a few exceptions to the rule. Like how to handle things when the color guard enters a building (or leaves). It makes my head hurt just to think about all the possibilities. I think I will have to refer to my sources (military and non) and get back with you on this.

This is very interesting!

Left for Summer Camp at Camp Friedlander last Sunday (one hour from home). Everyone fine, busy fisrts day at camp. Weather was hot and humid (heat ndex over 100 for 2 1/2 days).

At about 2AM Monday morning, I had a scout (15 years old and the oldest in the troop) crying that he couldn't sleep and his stomach hurt. I told him I would take him to the medical lodge, wake up the medics, and have him checked out. He refused. I told him to just go back to his tent and try to go to sleep that with the heat and humidity everyone was having trouble sleeping. He did. His tentmate told me he cryed for about another hour. The next morning he was up, went to breakfast, merit badge sessions, etc. and told me that he was fine. At 9PM on Monday, he was back for the same reason. I spoke to the other leaders in the camp and we agreed that I should call his mother. So I did. She went on and on about how his asthma is so bad along with his "other" lung problems that she was worried how he would handle the high heat and humidity because he can't breath well when that happens. She also asked if his stomach was hurting. She told me she had his medicine at home and said he should probably come home. I asked why we didn't have it and why it wasn't on his medical form. She didn't know why. Shen spoke with him and he packed up to leave. As he did so, I retrieved my copy of his medical form and all it said was that he had asthma and should have an emergency inhailer with him and that he has upset stomachs with no mention of medication. When the medic asked about the inhailer at the Sunday evening med check, he said he didn't use it anymore.

He showed no signs of having trouble breathing and definitly was in no distress. And the medics had plenty of over the counter remidies for upset stomachs. So what it boiled down to was that he was homesick and spoiled to boot. His mother said she would bring him back the next day after the front came through that would cool things down a bit. They didn't show up. She also told the other leaders wife (that came for family night) that she was bringing him for family night and leaving him there. They didn't show up.

This incident opened the flood gates. I had another boy ask if I had anyone go home from camp early because of homesickness. I said not yet, but give it an hour. I also reminded him that he couldn't go home because he gave his dad such a huge amount of lip service that he wouldn't be homesick and that he needed the vacation from dad. He agreed taht he should stickit out and got extra busy, the other scouts in camp jumped in to help too.

Then the next day, a third boy wanted to call his mother. He wanted to ask her to come to parents night (she told him she wasn't when we left).

Then my son said he wanted to go home (he lives with his mother), but he knew he couldn't do that.

By Wednesday, the fifth wanted to go home too.

That left my girlfriend's son. I was proud of him. Not once did he show any sign of homesockness, not even when he found out I was speaking to his mother on the cell phone (he did ask me to ask her to bring more underwear when she came for parents night, then ran off). Adn he only cryed for about 10 seconds when she left on family night.

I didn't have any of these problems last year with these boys, but we were 3 1/2 hours away. I think we will choose camps at least 2 hours away from now on.

Using a wagon to move things at summer camp is one thing (I've considered making one for use by our troop), backpacking is another. It was a bad decision on someones part to bring one on a backpacking trip.

It sounds that the wagon was loaned for troop use no matter who's idea it was, and if so, the troop should pay no matter who authorized its use. Then they should never consider this again for backpacking trips.

I didn't realize what I ws starting with my question. But a lot of intersting stuff being brought up here.

I was at camp last week. We had our troop and 4 provisional troops in the same campsite. So there were 5 troops and 6 leaders. One morning on the parade field before breakfast, standing there in my new camp T-shirt and non-uniform but otherwise BSA hat, I asked the other leaders if I should remove my hat or leave it on and salute for the flag raising. Iwas told unanimously taht I was in a class B and a BSA hat, so I should leave it on and salute.

In quiet disagreement, I removed my hat bedause I felt I was not in uniform. Everyone else saluted no matter what hat or class uniform they wore(even if it was no class).

Oh, and by the way, the uniform for dinner was to be a class A or full field uniform. The camp director dismissed on whos troop was most properly uniformed and the firstonesto go was a troop in troop T-shirts - no field uniforms. Most other troops grumbled at this. So even the camp has an idea that proper uniform does not necessarily mean full field uniform.

At our next TC meeting, the CC (ex-military) and I will bring up that our policy on hats will be as follows:

indoors - hats off always - period.

outdoors - when in full field uniform, the uniform hat may remain on for flag ceremonies, non-uniform hats will be removed. Hats will be removed when not in full field uniform.

Since interpretation is open to all, this is how we choose to interpret what is written.

Just got back from Camp Friedlander. This is the first Summer Camp they have had since 1971. Overall I give them an A+.

From the boy perspective. They had a lot of fun, learned a lot, the merit badges sessions were interesting, I attended a few, good food, and air conditioned dining hall was a blessing (we had a heat index of over 100 a couple days).

I guess being thier first year for so long, there were some administration type problems, but for the most part, it went pretty smooth.

Their adult program had a lot to be desired (also symptoms of the first year, I think). Very few training sessions and all of them were the same time and day so you could only attend one. I was told it would be different next year. (But, summer camp is for the boys.)

They did have problems on the water front, only during open boating. Seems they will let any swimmer have a boat regardless of his abilities in that boat. Had a few mishaps that brought complaints at the SM meeting the next morning. No one hurt but one of my boys was involved. Everyone realized it wasn't all the boys' fault, the policy and counselors let him have the boat. I suggested that they give a short orientation to each boy or group of boys to let them know what was expected of them. Apparently the policy was changed, my scout was not allowed in a canoe later in the week (due to lack of ability) I guess they decided to go this route for now. Also, on parents night, a parent wanted to go canoeing with his son, the staff said no, he would have to pass the BSA swim test(kudos!) when the man produced a card showing that he was a certified scuba diver, they still said no (kudos again!), but you think they would have allowed him the canoe since he showed proof of swimming abilities above and beyond the scope of the BSA swim test.

I must compliment the camp on their zero tolerance policy with the camp staff, seemed on Monday a Counselor smacked a kid across the arm with an arrow, leaving a welt. He was immidiately fired and escorted off the property and a new counselor was in place on Tuesday.

Overall I think the camp staff did a great job. I would recommend the camp to anyone asking.

We, on the other hand, probably will not attend next year. The closeness to home fostered homesickness. One boy left on Monday. He was homesick (don't know why, he was fine on all other campouts) and his mother gave me all kinds of "medical" reasons for him to go home, none of which were on his medical form and why did we not have his medications?). We have found that when you are 2-3 hours away, the homesickness doesn't happen, or the boys deal with it beter because they know in advance there isn't much chance of mom coming at 2 in the morning to get them.

The only complaint from the parents that came was the rude, snotty woman in the office where you sign in. Come to find out, the staff didn't like her either, so she wasn't playing favorites. I was told by the camp director that he would have someone with a pleasant smile and demeanor stand at the door and great people on parents night so they would get a good first impression.

Back from camp!

Because of this discussion, I was (overly) observant at mealtime at camp. For the most part, I saw implorable manners and not just from the scouts. Did some experimenting. I sat next to a kid (not from my troop) who folded a piece of roast beef (soaked in gravy), stabbed it with his fork and began to eat it(gravy dripping down the front o fo his shirt). As I was cutting mine ito bite size peices, I told him that what he was doing was rather rude and that he should cut it up first. What do you think he said? "This is how we do it at home!" I explained to him that it is not how we should do it in public and that it was bad manners. He said no more and began cutting it up. We never sat close together at anymore of the meals, but I did notice himpaying more attention to his manners (at least while I was looking). I was encouraged. But it was only a glimmer of hope when I looked around the dining hall to see so many with such bad manners. Then I looked at those who should be teaching them, and saw my answer in the manners displayed by the adults. This would be an uphill climb.

In the future, I will begin teaching these things in some manner. I will use many, if not all of the good ideas presented here. In speaking with my CC he related the story of when his sister came to visit when he was in the military and they were to attend a dinner at the majors house, he and his wife took his sister (18-19 yrs old) out that afternoon and shoveled in the ettiquette lessons so that her lack of proper manners would not be an embarrassment to her or any one else. Being her brother, he knew that her upbringing had not prepared her for this situation. She did fine.

He has suggested as sctomom did, have a dinner for both the scouts and their parents and have someone he knew come in to teach proper ettiquette to the boys. We will probably do this sometime in the future, I will let you know.

Back from Summer Camp (review will soon be in "So, what camp?).

The scout that was learning quick took swim lessons at camp and was able to build his confidence to a much higher level. He seems to have the notion that if he isn't good at something he isn't doing it. He did that at the rifle range. He didn't want to go because he wasn't a good shot. When we finally got him started, he spent all his free time shooting (as well as swimming). As his confidence builds, he will do it. We just have to keep telling him that if he trys and falls short, it is not a failure, if he doesn't try, he fails.

The scout I have that won't swim found himself wanting to do canoes and kayaks, but couldn't. I think his attitide is softening up.

We might get him swimming yet. By the way, he does work on his other requirememnts and merit badges, but he doesn't have much to overcome with those.

I am getting confused here, I can't tell if you are talking indoors or outdoors. And I think there is a difference.

Let's talk about indoors.

Look at the post by Fscouter that quotes the Insignia Guide (3rd from the top). The boys should only be wearing thier uniform hats indoors when in uniform and only during formal ceremonies except in religious institutions where custom forbids. And it says "may" which means there is a choice.

If the custom in the church id no hats, then they should be off! If not then then choose.

I haven't a clue as to public buildings, etc except to say that I was taught that hats come off in any building.

Now Outside

No reason I know of to have hats off except maybe for a prayer service. I have never seen where it is written that you take a hat off for the flag.

(Don't want to get this started again here, but about the salute thing, the boy scout handbook also gives us instructions for saluting, To the brow with no hat, to the brim of the hat, with hat. Two years ago, we had the honor of having a large number of active and retired military men home for the Memorial Day service which was held outdoors. I was watching them. They removed their hats ONLY for prayer. Saluted the flag when they went by it, or it went by, and when the National Anthem was being played.)

IT WAS ME! IT WAS ME!

Good Obeservation Acco40!

My parents chose what I watched way back when (it was what they wanted to watch, we only had one television then). And we watched television as a family usually in the evening after dark. In the daylight, I had things to do!

I wasn't put in front of the box just anytime to get me out of their way.

I may even be guilty of using it at times with my own children.

I was thinking more of the video games, etc.

But the good and evil of television though is left to another thread I think.

Leading by example is good. Can't argue with that.

But you have to get that example in front of the kids and get them to pay attention. Do they really watch how you eat and get it that they should do what you do? How do they know when they see an example of proper ettiquette if they don't know first that it was proper ettiquette? For instance, if they have never been taught the proper way to hold a knife and fork, will they recognize that you are doing it properly, right in front of their eyes? I'm not sure.

Anyway, I must say that this has been a great debate. This is it for me until Monday, July 29 at 8:00 AM. (Sigh of releif! Get this guy outta here for a while!).

But first a bit of a recap.

We have those that want to lead by example and seemingly forget about it otherwise.

We should teach this stuff in several areas of the program, like when it comes under the scout oath and law (But no one has posted that they actually teach anythng like this, at least right now anyway, when they teach those aspects of scouting.)or in different merit badges.

We have those who think it might be a good idea to have a merit badge.

We have a little of "Everything I need to know about life I learned from Star Trek."

And the one thing I do see, is that we all seem to agree about the need to teach some of these things in our scouting program.

Shemgren

I went back and read your post again and you were in a situation where you were dealing with many troops and had no control, my apologies.

I ask my troop to wear the uniform as correct as they possibly can. I am still trying to get them to require the green pants.

But mine is not many units and I can deal with it in my troop (usually with uniform inspections).

I have boys bring their uniforms to meetings, COH, etc wadded up in a bag and ask me if they need to wear it. I answer them that it is for them to decide.

If they decide to not wear it, or wear it wrong, I ask the SPL to include a uniform inspection in todays meeting. Since he has bought into the idea of wearing the uniform properly, he does it. He wants them all to wear it properly and look good doing it.

Shemgren

Uniform hats, non-uniform hats, when in uniform, we wear the uniform hat.

In our unit Non-uniform hats are not worn with the uniform.

It brought things down to, I do this when in uniform, that when not in uniform. The scouts appreciated it being easier to remember.

Oh, and the scout sign thing. I did it at a Knights of Columbus meeting. I was impressed with the resonse.(This message has been edited by scoutmaster424)

NJCubScouter

Thanks for going into it all. I don't know it well enough, I just remember the lesson involved. I am 40 now, so my parents did such a good job instilling the necessity for using proper ettiquette in me that I remember that from such a young age.

I don't know what the accepted definition of a formal is, but the first formal ocaasion (other than maybe a wedding)in a scouts life is most likely going to be the Prom (Do you know the ettiquette which pertains to which style tux he should or should not wear?).

Mike Long brought up the Family Life Merit Badge and Eagle required at that!

Family life is also something we as parents should be teaching our children at home, on our own. Why then did the BSA create that one? I suppose it was because it was an important enough life skill that the BSA decided to take up where the parents were obviously lacking. And they require every boy aspiring to be an Eagle to take this merit badge. If we as parents were to teach our children about family from the beginning, the merit badge should be a breeze for them.

We've whipped the "manners at meals" example to a froth (Eating is a necessetiy that we all must do, so it seems like the appropriate example), but there are many other areas to be concerned with - Manners as neighbors, at church, in groups, in school, in hospitals, at funerals, weddings, dances, meeting dignitaries, and important people, on the road (isn't the recommended defense against road rage just simply having manners?)

I do not disagree with Quixote's ideas either. He's given some good ones, most of you have.

But no one has answered my one pointed question posted right after Quixote's post. How many of us teach ettiquette as part of teaching the point of the scout law "A scout is courteous?"

I do not. And until Quixote posted, I hadn't thought about it. But beleive me, I will think about it from now on.

But a wider question may be, how many of us teach the broader scope of the scout oath and law?

Or do we just say, "Now Johnny, do you understand what it means to be courteous?" And he replies, "Yea, it means to say please and thank you and yes ma'am, no ma'am." "Okay, He's got it!"

buffalo2 - I don't agree with what you said either. But if Rooster7 is correct, then maybe.

Read some of my examples I've posted. The man I used to work for worked on oil rigs for quite a few years before coming home to join Dads business. An environment where it was more than likely acceptable if not necessary to be a bit on the "barbaric" side. But he continues his deplorable habits even in the environment of those of us who tried to use the most basic of manners.

My kids lives with their mother and she has deplorable manners (especially when it comes to eating) and my son is absorbing this from his environment. I feel that if left as you say (maybe not as you mean as Rooster7 surmized) my kids will be eating from the pig trough in no time! Completely Unacceptable!(This message has been edited by scoutmaster424)