kd6rxy

You, and Mr Spock, said a mouthful!

(That was one of my favorite episodes. I haven't seen it in years!)

Fscouter

Glad I'm not the only one!

Boy, I wish our cubmaster would read these forums. Heck, I wish I had found them 2 years or so ago!

Signs up!

Our unit commisioner does that. I wait too! There is no better way to get them to stop talking than when they figure out they are the only one, the signs up, and everyone is looking at them.

About the abmonishing thing though, If an ASM was to do something he shouldn't (such as, admonish a boy in public), you bet I will pull him aside and talk to him about it in private, I am not sure if that is admonishing him or not, just explaining things aren';t done that way. He apparently needs to know and someone should be telling him. I guess as SM that would be me, but I wouldn't see a problem with anyone telling him or me if I did it.

Saying 'Hats off" to the group as you go into the mees hall is fine in my book (I am sure AI will be doing it next week at camp.) saying, "Tommy, I've told you everytime this week to take that hat off in the mess hall" n fron tof the group is not fine.

yaworski

I guess I wasn't so clear.

The parent made it clear that he wanted the kid gone for the week, he didn't care to do what and he obviously wasn't concerned about who with. But, If you can't trust the boy scouts...

He just plain acted as if he did not care about his son.

Anyway, I think people get concern and guiding confused with "overly involved" and "pushing" thier kids.

I personally want my kids to become independant at everything. I want to be able to not worry that they know what is expected as far as behavior and proper manners and are capable of doing the right thing.

And I don't think passing on my values to them is micromanaging thier lives either.

In the days of yore, parents didn't have electronic babysitters and did spend time with thier children doing exactly the same thing, instilling in them the family values.

I learned quite a while ago that a civilized educated man can easily act as a barbarian. A barbarian, however, cannot act as a civilized educated man. I think it was in an episode of the original Star Trek.

My point has been and still is, it is not the boys fault they have no manners. The fault is in the parents tht do not teach their children manners.

I am positive if parents were any less concerned about this issue, that the boys will not turn progrees in this subject, they would just be happy slobs.

sctmom

Give one of those communities a call and ask them, maybe they would grant you a couple night a month in return for a service project or something.

You might be surprised.

I don't disagree that some points of ettiquette fall under the realm of other areas in scouting lilke the scout law.

How many of us have meetings where we explain all this stuff about being courteous or about any other point of the scout law? I don't find anywhere like in the program resources where is suggests that you do? I have never thought of it before.

But there are so many things that are not covered elsewhere.

And which fork to use is not a cooking issue that only cooks should know, it is an eating issue and we all eat!

So I guess a merit badge like this should be required for eagle to be sure all the boys get it.

Dave J.

Aggreed. A week at camp is fine if he is nearly there. Some longer term thing is needed in most other cases.

As I thnk I have posted. I have a deal with the YMCA close to here. They provide me with a lifeguard to work with rank requirements for all of my scouts. They do this the first and third Monday of each month for $2 per scout.

I have one scout who is learning pretty quick (he really wants it).

I wish I could get all the scouts and thier parents to see the value and start coming.

Mike,

I understand where you are coming form.

Families apparently don't interact much anymore. Parents today seem to be looking for the babysitter (TV, Video, etc) and not taking the time to teach them proper behavior. I see this in my small troop. I fight the BSA(Babysitters of America) thing constantly. I asked a parent about what merit badges his son was going to work on and his response was that he didn't know and didn't care, he was getting a weeks vacation out of it. What a great parent.

Anyway, I am glad to see that most of the posters here agree the need for teaching the boys ettiquette be it in the form of a new merit badge or adding things to other merit badges or even in other area.

sctmom - adult behavior at kids sporting events is getting dplorable. I am glad to know that some one is taking it back to the parents!

By the way, I was at a tournement game in Cincinnati a couple years ago. I though it was something that the Little League Baseball Asst. Commissioner over the region was at this game (he really wasn't, his son was playing on the next field). One teams parents were exhibiting such bad behavior that he stopped the game, went to the pitchers mound and admonished them all in front of everyone ending with the threat to stop the game a second time and have everyone from that team removed except for the players and coaches. And boy was he mad! Thing went as they should after that. I am sure things are different for them now.(This message has been edited by scoutmaster424)

Thanks Rooster7!

sm101 - I am not talking about boys being boys nor am I talking about the boys who have been meticulously taught at home wanting to let things slide when away form mom or dad. I guess I am really talking about the fact that there seems to be a complete lack of teaching or learning of ettiquette in todays society.

In all my examples, I only once talked about a kid and that was in the context of his parent(s) not teaching the proper way because they themselves did not know the proper way.

It is the adults who don't know or don't care about good manners that I suppose are really the problem here. And the kids are going to suffer later for it.

And how many scouts are going to pay much attention to a scout leader when mom and dad don't care if they eat like pigs. Why should they.

Do you use the dining hall as an oportunity to teach manners? Teaching and correcting are two different things in my book. You have to get the boy to by into an idea by explaining the subject, not just correcting him by saying, "Johnny, eat with you mouth shut!"

I love Sctmom's Idea of getting something set up to teach the boys proper table manners. I am going to be looking into that for my troop. And Rooster7 is right, there is too much for even us as adults to comprehend, but my parents instilled the importance of proper manner into me so profoundly that if I know I will be in a situation where I do not know what the proper ettiquette is, I go to the library, find Emily Post and look it up.

More examples, what is the proper ettiquette for meeting and speaking with the President of the United States (or even writing him a letter)? I am not sure, but I know where to find it, and believe me, I will know before I am in the situation and so will my son or my scouts!

How many of you know that when you are at a formal dinner and you get up to leave a dinner table (to do something you shouldn't do at the table) that you should put your napkin on the seat of the chair and that when you are finished with dinner , you should fold you napkin and lay it next to your plate? I didn't untiil about a week ago, when I read it! Are the boys going to get that through example without the explanation? Are they even going to notice? (No wonder the waiters wanted to take my plate before I was finished, I was unknowingly signalling them that I was!)

I am not trying to show off my ettiquette prose here, believe me , I am as rough around the edges as I can be. These are things I didn't learn about until I was an adult.

I think I am getting the point across, but I do realize that there are going to be some of you out there who won't get it or see the importance of it.

Ed Mori,

Absolutely right in my opinion. Better to preserve the dignity than to enforce the rule.

rlculver415

The post is no doubt the same, I copied it here to get my point started.

While I agree with you, the "praise in public, criticize in private" phrase comes to mind. I believe in scouting that private means taking one to the side in "public". That is his responsibility, if taking him aside to speak to him is embarassing, I guess you are right, but I think this guy is telling them in front of the group so everyone can hear, that is wrong.

scomman

I think that is very proper. And I think I will ask the pastor of our church (or at the next board meeting) what the rule is for our church and hall. That way, I can do what the CO wishes.

Thanks for all the input.

"Leading by example" might work when they see you opening a door for someone but what about table manners.

Do you think that by sharing a few meals at the monthly campout with someone that has excellent table manners is going to be example enough to teach them to chew with their mouths closed, to cut their food into bite sized pieces and how to properly use eating utinsels? With so many troop that have the adults cook and eat seperate from the scouts, I seriously doubt that bad table manners are even noticed on campouts. Do you even sit at the same table as the boys do?

And, Mike, From you comment, I am sure you teach manners and ettiquette in your home, as have I, but don't be so sure these things are being taught in all homes. How many adults do you see using bad manners?

Let me give you an example. About 8 years ago, I started working for a small company in my home town. The owner was a man of abouot 45. He would adjusting himself in front of everyone (including the ladies)! One day he even went so far as to reach into his pants to do it! He would even stand and dig at his backside in front of everyone. In meetings, no matter who was present, he would lean over to pass gas. He would cough, hack, spit, belch, blow his nose anytime anywhere, and with out the customary "Excuse me." His table manners were no better. One day while at lunch, he was beong so obnoxious that the people at the next table moved across the resteraunt. We told him we couldn't go to dinner with him because we were embarrassed by the whole thing. He just said Okay and we quite doing lunch!

So, If his parents were not teaching him manners 40 years ago, what would make you think that it is being taught 10 years agou or even today. He is not teaching his kids, and do you think his kid will be teaching theres?

By the way, his parent had excellent manners, even at home with each other.

One more example. My girlfriends son, 9 when I met him, held his fork like a shovel and did not even know how to use a knife, let alone properly. He was trying to cut his food holding it lilke a dagger! When I showed him how to do it properly, he was amazed at how easy it was to cut his food and that he learned so fast. his mother's comment, "My mother didn't teach me that."

She is 40. Ettiqutte again not being taught 35 years ago.

How many of us know which fork is which when there are 3 or 4 of them, or which glass is the water glass and which one the wine, where your napkin shoud go, when eating, leaving the table for a short time, or being finished? How many times have you been to a party and noticed or even commented about the ill-mannered oaf at the buffet, and you are judging them by you own manners, not Emily Posts? Would you want this to be your son? One of your scouts?

I may not remember all that I am asking, if I don't, I have a clue, but my parents felt it was important to teach me, and I feel that it is important to teach children.

It is better for them to have some clue as to how to conduct themselves than to be oblivious.

Don't get the impression that I think that an Ettiquette merit badge would solve the manners problem, it won't, but it will let them see what is correct and proper and at an age where they are going to soon want to be impressing people - the boss, the young ladies, and it might just help. It would be a shame for a boy to loose the job opportunity or the woman of his dreams because he ate like a pig at dinner.

Sorry about the soapbox, I guess I feel stronger about the subject than I first thought.(This message has been edited by scoutmaster424)

Seems that the word "ettiquette" has been used alot lately. Especially between me and acco40. And all of it has been in remarks about scout leaders!

A parent who was present at a family dinner the scout had noted the manners the boys dispayed (or should I say the lack of manners). He asked if there was a merit badge that would teach his boy manners and I said no but it sounded like a great idea to me!

What do you think of the idea?

I am not up on the bible like I should so I won't go there.

If there were, in the troop, people of faiths other than christian, I would think that even in what is considered a large troop, someone would know who the others were (We use the Class 3 Medical form and there is a place for religious preference. I always ask if it is not filled in.). But there again, I am only talking about the troop here, I have never been asked to lead a prayer at a scouting function on a larger scale.

As I understand it a non-denominational service would be lacking major elements pertaining to one particular denomination. Multi-denominational would be having elements of more that one denomination specifically. So I guess all the reference material I have found on the internet about nondenominational services actually mean multi-denominational since they have elements from several different religions.

So, when I do a service, it would more than likely be multi-denominational since I would try to select prayers, etc from several diferent religious sources. this seems to be what most people look for. Are they doing one for the christians, jews, hindus, muslims, etc?

But I must say that I have broken my own rule here by posting on a mater of religion. But the tolerance thing got the best of me. I ususally try to stay away.

As I said before, I would welcome the opportunity of more religious diversity, but as I sit here thinking about it, only Christian based churches around here. The others are located in larger population areas, Cincinnati, Columbus, Portsmouth, even. All 60+ miles away.

acco40,

If I ever post that I did something like you have described your SM did (here and elsewhere), Please, Beat Me Up Big time! I will deserve it. Medications are a private thing and no ones business but the boy, parents, SM and maybe ASM's. Some parents will bring this up in front of everyone and I have had to aask them to talk to me privately about it. Bad form!

acco40,

I agree with everything you have said here. I had been wanting to ask this for a while but never remembered when I was online and when you posted it, It sparked the memory. So off I went. I was taking a pole, so to speak, but was also loooking for solid policy too.

I have had the same problem with a few adults, but found a way to aleviate it without having to say much. When I ask for people to stand and recite the pledge, I refuse to begin until everyone is standing. They usually get the picture when everyone starts looking around to see why we haven't started. those parents are prompt the next time.

Sorry, if I seemed like I was taking you to task, I really wasn't. I was just using it to get my thought started.

FScouter,

Thank you! That is exactly what I needed to see here. A reference to a Boy Scout Manual on this very subject.

I do not remember what branch of the service our CC was in. But he is a County Court Judge and I feel I must substantiate my side of the discussion when we have a difference of opinion. especially when he thinks he is right and we should do it his way.

We meet in a Church fellowship hall/gym that is not actually part of the church building itself. But we have COH's in the church itself. When there, all hats come off at the front door.

Thanks everyone for the answers.

Acco40 posted this in another thread:

"When in our field uniforms the boys perform an opening and closing flag ceremony as I'm sure most of you do too. There is always one particular scoutmaster who admonishes a boy or two to remove their hat during the ceremony. His belief is that we are indoors and that one removes their hat as a sign of respect for the flag. My view is that if the hat is part of the uniform, stay in uniform. Also, if he wants to show respect for the flag in that manner, good for him but don't impose his beliefs on others. Lead by example I say."

In respect to the flag.

I was taught that when out of uniform, and wearing a hat, you should remove it with your right hand and place it over your left shoulder so that your hand is over your heart (where you hand goes if you don't have a hat) when you say the pledge, or sing or hear the national anthem, whether you are indoors or out.

When in uniform, and wearing a hat you salute the flag with your hand at the edge of your hat when you are outdoors.

My CC and I had this discussion once. He says that in the military, when indoors, you remove your hat (unless you are armed). And that he thinks that the scouts should remove thier hats indoors regardless.

I was taught that a man should remove his hat indoors - period.

So , if indoors you should not have your hat on, so when you are in uniform, you salute the flag with your hand to your brow.

I think this is correct etiquette. Am I wrong?

Good Point rlculver415,

I don't think I was in the program long enough to get comfortable. I did two years as WDL and CM and most everything else that needed done. Doing more than one job right from the start was detrimental to this development. I left to start a Boy Scout Troop after that.

But you are right, at some point, the program needs to be customized, but cbmstr922 has been doing that completely, so it shouldn't be a problem for his leaders to incorporate the helps.

Diversity is good, learning of other faiths is good.

When our PLC plans a religious service, they chose prayers from different religions, muslum, jewish, buddist, american indian, they say it is because they sound cool, or because it says the same thing they learned in a different way.

Good point NJscouter, I think prayers of most religions translated into english would probably sound to a christian like a generic prayer.

Seems most religions have the same ideas for living and getting along with others, but say it in their own way, or the interpretations into english leaves them sounding different.

I once saw the phrase "Do unto others..." listed in more religions than I knew there were. It didn't read the same, but you knew the idea was the same. I believe the article was to show how similar the religious beliefs were even though we may not believe the same.

And I do wish we had more religious diversity in our area as well as our troop, but the nearest non-christian church is over 50 miles away. I suppose that is where all the diversity is.

Rooster - I think you said what I actually meant(This message has been edited by scoutmaster424)

I (as does the Boy Scout Handbook) interpret the 12th point of the scout law as follows:

A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.

(Excerpted from page 47-54, Boy Scout Handbook, 11th Edition,(#33105), copyright 1998 by BSA)

To me, This reads like it was written by a christian (it references God), but the last line takes all religions (or a lack therof)into consideration (Maybe a better interpretation would be to say "A scout is reverent toward his god.")

I, for one, do care about Quixote's religion, as I do about religion of all of you. If I were to live by the scout Law (as I must as a Scout Leader) then I must respect everyones religious beliefs (whether or not I agree with them).

To be intollerant of religious beliefs, to me is unscoutlike. I would have an immediate Scoutmaster Conference with any boy scout that takes an intolerant position toward religion.

I agree that the whole of the group needs to be taken into account, but in our "Scouts Own" services at monthly camps, I do not do the asking, the Chaplain's aid (or the service leader) does the asking, so we get christian prayers.

I for one would lead a christian pray, that is all I know. But I am lucky, haven't had the pleasure of religious diversity beyond christian protestants, catholics and those who don't attend but don't mind a good christian prayer.

Our charter organization is a Church of the Nazarene. If the IH or COR is present, and I was doing the asking (like at the COH), I will always ask them.

(This message has been edited by scoutmaster424)

Three years ago when I started a new CS Pack in my hometown, we had all new leaders. Our UC was the SM from the next town, he helped when he could, but at the time, he wasn't too dependable (busy schedule, I guess). We could not have done it without the helps. We had to develop a program fast and did not yet have training or relationships to fall back on.

The helps made it easier to plan (most of it was done, just pick and choose which features you wanted). The leaders didn't feel overwelmed with den meeting planning, they could just follow the plan in the book (and most did).

I was a Webelos Den Leaders also, and I did use the Webelos Den Leaders guide just as it read. I would get my girlfreind to list out the materials and help me collect them. Don;t really know how we would have done it otherwise.

So the boy DID learn from his experience if he learned that he cannot harrass the younger scouts and get away with it and that the troop won't tolerate the unacceptable behavior.

Great story of a great accomplishment!

yaworski, i think you said it all!

He was having fun and that was what was important.

Sorry, Quixote, I didn't understand that you weren't there. If you were there, he still would have had the warning, but also the reminder of the cleanup.

If the written warnings work, I'm all for it.

What did the father have to say about it?(This message has been edited by scoutmaster424)

No apparent problem fishing from shore, boats, docks, or piers (loves to fish). No apparent problem being in a boat for pleasure (rowboat, motorboat, etc). He was A CIT at CS Day Camp last month and I picked him and others up at a friends house afterwards on evening and he was wet up to his armpits. He said hwe had been in the creek! Blue jeans, army boots and all! Maybe it is just deep water? I have tried to talk to him about what it might be, to his parents and grandparents. But like I said, they obviously condone the bahavior by not bringing him to the swimming activities.

We go to summer camp next week and I bet he will stay away from the pool and the new lake and only go to the fishing pond.

By the way, I have another scout (new) who doesn't swim (says he has never been given the opportunity), but the lifeguard at the YMCA says he should be able to pass the beginners test in another session or two. I have encouraged him to take swimming lessons at camp, but I thnk he has opted for merit badges so he could be more like the rest of the boys. He tells me that he will be swimming by next month!

Yes achievement is important, maybe moreso that advancement. The goals a boy sets in scouting should be his own and not his parents or leaders goals. And achieving being able to swim (even if just for self preservation) to me, is more imprtant than the swimming for advancement.

To get back to one of sm101's original questions, I have the same problem with other boys and other requirements (Scout spirit is one of them). And like yaworski implies, you can't promote him just because. He has to meet the requirements for advancement and all you can do is encourage him to achieve the requirements and advance. He will do one of three things, he will eventually advance, he will not advance and be perfectly happy about it, or he will quit. But all in all, I think you would have done your job.

(This message has been edited by scoutmaster424)