Jeffrey H

Thanks everyone for your helpful thoughts. It appears that I stepped on some toes, but that was my intent. I wanted to get some good experienced insight.

My Cubmaster and I (the ACM) plan to take WB next August at Philmont. Its more expensive but we want to get out of our council and go the Rockies.

Kudu,

I appreciate your comments but the Scoutmaster Handbook that you quoted from is dated from 1972. This edition of the Handbook was the beginning of the "new and improved" Scouting program which proved to be a disaster. The BSA has long since abandoned that program and has moved back to an emphasis on outdoor skills.

--Jeff

Thanks for your input. Based on what all of you are telling me, it seems that Woodbadge is not what I thought it was. I realize I have to take what I get, but the old course with more emphasis on outdoor skills sounds more interesting to me and more of what Baden-Powell would have emphasized. Even the name "Woodbadge" implies something that is rugged and outdoors. The heart of Scouting has always been an emphasis on the outdoors and outdoor skills. I expected the top training course for scout leaders to offer the same emphasis.

As I read this forum, there are occasional references to the "old" WB course. What was different about the "old course"? Is the new course better or worse?

For those of you who think the new course is better, give me a good sell so I can decide whether to take WB or not in the coming year.

Maybe he's going for the merit badge record, whatever that is. He's definitely not the norm, but you gotta' hand it to him. He's put in alot of organized effort to accomplish it. Assuming he's 17 years old (i'm guessing), he had to average 15 a year to get to this point. He's earned more in a year than what I earned in my 4 1/2 years as a Boy Scout.

When I train new Cub leaders, I always urge them to register as a den leader, not an assistant. This way, they get a copy of the program helps in their Scouter magazine.

fgoodwin,

That was not my experience.  Last year, I was registered as an Assistant Den Leader and I received the the "program helps" in the Scouting magazine. 

When you urge them to all register as DL's, do they all work together as co-Den Leaders or do some of them assume the ADL position?

--Jeff

Is there actually any issue should a pack elect to approve 2 folks being registered as WL's rather than registering 1 WL and 1 WA.

It should not be an issue if each WL is responsible for leading a specific group of boys.

"Co-Den Leader" arrangements can be problematic and sometimes do not work very well.  In the end, one of the co-den leaders will become the "lead" and the other the "assistant".  From an ethical standpoint, if one of the co-leaders is really doing the work of an "assistant" then he/she should not apply for the Webelos Den Leader Award.

We have a similar issue in our Pack.  Right now we have 3 Bear Den Leaders but only one Bear Den of 21 boys (we grew fast overnight).  Our immediate plan is to divide these boys into 3 groups with each DL responsible for one group.  We're thankful that 3 men have stepped up to volunteer as DL's, but we want to avoid the trap of creating a "co-den leader" scenario that will only frustrate rather than help.

Can we make that much difference?

Eagledad,

You made a difference because you were there for him as a leader and advisor.  This is his way of saying "Thank You".

When I was a Boy Scout, I looked up to my SM as a teacher, advisor, and I respected him.  I was grateful that he gave of his time to help us enjoy the Scouting experience.  It really did not matter that he may have been a little disorganized or a little forgetful.  What mattered is that he was there and he cared about us.

Thank you for giving of your time.  I'm a Scout leader today because of positive role models like yourself.

Jeff

I saw them at the scout shop yesterday and an employee was wearing a pair. They look really good and they go well with the uniform shirt. They look good enough for meetings and a COH in my opinion. If your on a tight budget, there really is no need for to purchase both types of uniform pants; the new ones will do just fine.

Enjoy. The BSA did it right on this one!

Usually the Cubmaster and Myself (ACM) attends as reps for our Pack. We don't expect all our Pack leaders to attend. We encourage it, but we don't push it. Our RT's are boring and it's hard to sell to your leaders to come to a boring meeting. That said, RT's are still the most effective way to obtain material and information about upcoming events and training (that's basically what keeps people coming and the "knot" requirement).

The good side of RT is networking with other Scouts in the district and developing new scouting friendships. This always renews my energy when I see others dedicated to the same goals as I am.

If it's a Cub Scout book, then why does it mention girls and 5 year olds? Is it a family activity book for Cubs and thier siblings.

I will be taking the BALOO course in October.  It will be a one day course from 9-5.  I understand from other leaders that it's a fairly easy course for those that already have camping experience.  

Here what I picked up from the National BSA website www.scouting.org

Participants who complete this training course will

Understand the focus of the Cub Scout level of the BSA outdoor program.

Gain the skills needed to plan and carry out a successful Cub Scout-level overnight activity.

Learn more about the resources available from the BSA for carrying out this activity.

This training is required for any adult who is in charge of planning a pack campout.

I have to suspect that trying to preserve dying units may actually harm membership, because the few boys involved in those units are likely to drop out entirely, whereas they might stay in scouting if a merger with a more healthy unit could be engineered. I think BSA pros should be making this happen, rather than discouraging it.

Our Pack is currently providing leadership and activities to another Pack that is in serious decline because they have no Cubmaster.  Im convinced that if we did not step in to help that most of their Cubs would have dropped out for good.  Some of their boys came back into Cubs after we invited them to come back and be a part of an active and fun program.  That said, preserving a dying unit is only a temporary band-aid that should not continue for more than a year.

Unless they can get a Cubmaster before their next re-charter, their unit will merge into ours.  The merger will be simple the few boys they have will transfer to our Pack.  Our BSA pro (DE) will not like this, but so what?  He does not deliver our Packs program and work with our Cubs weekend and weekout.  We helped this dying Pack with recruitment at school night for scouting and all the DE did was show up at the end of it and ask us how many we recruited.

Sidenote:  Our DE could enhance his professional image for the BSA by showing up in full uniform.

Mark,

Are you a member of a church or civic organization? If so, ask them if you can use their facilities. As a member, you should have some pull as they should know you and have a good level of trust.

My church opened their doors to our Pack for many years and they were not the CO. Now, because of the long relationship, they recently became our new chartering organization.

Because of the ACLU, the elementary schools in our city could no longer serve as CO's. They did provide us a meeting place under "equal access" rules, but the restrictions were too prohibitive to continue working with them.

The Den Leaders Award is only for den leaders and does not include the assistant den leaders.

An Assistant Den Leader can work toward the Cub Scouter Award after a minimum of 2 years service.

"As I spend hours making, planning, or running errands for these organizations, I wonder what the other parents are doing with their time. I wonder what they think their duty to their children, community, and themselves might be. Do they secretely laugh at home about the poor suckers who do all the work for their kids and community? Or are they so oblious they don't realize what burden they are putting on the rest of the community?"

Good questions.  The only way to find out is to ask them to volunteer and work alongside you. 

The other parents sense of "duty" will be different from yours.  They may have the same values as you, but important time constraints due to job responsibilities, extended family, aging parents, etc. all play important factors.  They may only have the luxury of volunteering for one significant organization.

Do they secretly laugh?  Probably not.  They are likely envious that you have the energy and organizational skills to work with so many organizations.  They probably wonder how you do it. 

This is a tough one because I like technology. I also like classrooms where I meet others and share information and develop friendships.

There is no substitute for live classroom training but only if the instructor is knowledgable and experienced. Information shared by other classmates has great value.

There is also no substitute for online training if volunteers and new leaders need Youth Protection training now and not later. Youth Protection is basically textbook knowledge of BSA policies and fits well in an internet training environment.

We use the program helps as a guide primarily for Pack Meetings and as a reference for fresh ideas, but we don't hold hard and fast to them.

Our den meetings are a mix of achievements and activities. If there are fun and interesting achievements/electives that we can do in a den meeting, we do them together as a den. We let the parents know what we worked on so they do not have to repeat it at home. Most of the achievements have to be done at home anyway, so find the fun stuff in the handbook and have a good time. Remember to throw in some cheers, applauses, and upbeat songs.

"On the other hand, there are some boys who just never really click with the cub program, yet who can't wait to be boy scouts."

That would me when I was a boy.  I dropped out after 3rd grade and waited until I turned 11 to join Boy Scouts.   After I joined, I stayed with the Troop for almost 5 years and had a blast.  I was in Cubs in the early 70's and during this time no camping of any type was allowed for Cubs of any age including Webelos.  I did not like Cub program as it was delivered back then and my Pack and Den were pretty boring.  I don't remember going on any outings or field trips.  They pretty much kept us inside (where boys don't like to be).  Oh yeah, we had a Pinewood Derby, but that was the highlight of the year.  When that was done, nothing to look forward to.

"He most likely will be a bit lost in Boy Scouts because he is not really prepared."

ScoutNut,

Preparation for what?  There are no prerequisites to join Boy Scouts other than the age/grade requriement.  Imposing other requirements is improper.  I'm sure you know this, but I often feel many adult leaders and parents do not.

"It brings people together that normally might not associate with each other."

I never really thought about that and it's so true.  Thanks for the thought. 

Neilup,

$200 to FOS from a wealthy Troop?  Wow!  Thats quite a sacrifice. 

My Pack, which barely makes it on our meager budget, probably gives more than $1,500 annually to FOS through the contributions of our parents and leaders.  We tend to be generous with FOS because were not very good at fundraising (popcorn) and the parents would  rather make direct donations than mess with the coordination and hassle of selling popcorn.

This troop could be giving more to FOS, but on the flip side, large troops like these contribute tremendously to the success of the overall Scouting program.  In other words, they deliver the full Scout program to the boys locally.  Troops like these are the reason boys stay in Scouting.

CNY Scouter,

It is frustrating.  In my experience with our Pack, parents want the calendar filled with all sorts of activities, but at the same time make no commitment to any of those events.  Some adults never make it out of their childhood years when it comes to keeping promises.

Heres what works for us.  The week preceding an event, the CM or the ACM (myself) contact the parents to remind them of an event to get a headcount and a verbal commitment.  Some folks forget to sign-up so they appreciate the reminders.  Also, folks forget that they signed-up and appreciate the reminders.  E-mail is a good to use, but a phone call is much better.  This works for us and dramatically reduces the number of no-shows or unexpected guests. 

If its a really BIG event, we will threaten to cancel if commitment is very low.  This last resort elimates the Ill wait and see if something better comes up folks.

I probably havent told you anything you dont already know, but maybe it will be a help to another reader.

--Jeff

packwife,

I smypathize with you, but profanity cannot be tolerated regardless of situation. Yes, it's possible your son may not have received a fair hearing, but this will be a lesson for him to control his tongue when he is in a frustrating situation.

Best wishes on your hearing with the leaders.

--Jeff

The BSA has had a mission and vision statement since 1910. It's embodied in the Scout Oath and Law. Writing a mission statement was not really necessary but we all tend to get caught up in the newest management fads.

Will the fact that someone is a Scout in time or over time improve their personal values?

Good question. I think it makes a positiveimpact butthere is no guarantee that a boy will change inwardly for the better. He may outwardly profess the Scout Oath & Lawbut not really takethem seriously. However, ifhe hasa scout leader of high integrity who practices the Oath & Law, that will make a bigger impact on him than what is written on paper.

TheScout Law is based on timeless principles and young boys need to see adult leaders practicingit. If adult leaders are just in it so they can do some "camping", then they are not really delivering the full Scout program. Character development is one of the purposes of Scouting and character is developed when the Scout Law is consistently practiced.In my opinion, one of the reasons that the BSA desires scouts to be active in their religious dutiesis so they will obtain a greater appreciation and understanding of the Scout Law.

Is the Scout Law easy to follow? No. As we say in Cub Scouts, "Do Your Best!"