jbroganjr

If coming into NJ/PA on Delaware river, you have a variety of options. There are boy scout camps (Kittattiny and Yard's Creek of the Central NJ council) along the route. The distance tween the two is about 20 - 21 miles. For trips on the delaware river, contact Kittattiny Canoe, who help out with scout groups sojourning down the river. Further trips: Camping is relatively easy above the water gap, gets scarce below the gap, non existant through central nj part of the river... except for treasure island (Philadephia Council) located about 3 miles south of the Frenchtown Bridge. Treasure Island is another boyscout camp.

For those "tween spaces" where camping is scarce, I'd suggest asking local troops for help. Contact CNJC council in NJ or in PA, Minsi Trails, or Buck's county council for guidance.

Hope that helps

Cave wrote: "We are trying to encourage our scouts to earn the money to pay there own way through fund raisers. Doesn't it seem contradictory for adults to have there fees covered by the troop."

Do you not think that it would be an important development in character for a scout to understand that not only is he helping his own effort, but also helping the adults who give so much time to allow them to have these opportunities

What about adding to the job description of the SM. No where does it state that the SM biggest requirement should be his wallet and is that the main basis of a what you look for in a SM?

The SM donates intangibles such as: a week of vacation for summer camp, quite a hefty sum. There are plenty of other examples of costs that come directly out a SM pocket, which I am sure other posters will add to.

Does only concentrating on the boys financial needs serve to elevate them over the adults? I mean that by putting the importance of "my son earned it" as being more important that the good of the whole troop tends to go against my interpretation of character and citizenship. It also tends to demean the effort of SM(s) of the extras' they put into the program. Going to RT, taking the training and the time training takes.

What about the worth of a SM efforts when fundraisers are conducted. does he/she not give his time in helping boys org or pull of a fundraiser? (A scoutmasters job description is to be present at all troop functions or to appoint a delegate in his stead)

Should there be parameters, you bet, but to shoulder the whole cost? I am guessing if that is the trend, recruiting new scoutmasters will be done through the Wall st. Journal or other financial publications.

I had an interesting bit of conversation directed at me from a committee member after i suggested that the troop help offset attendance and/or travel costs for troop outings.

The committee member told me that scouting was my hobby and as such, that I should shoulder all costs involved, much the way a race fan supports his passion by buying all that stuff like shirts, decals, fan entry fees to racing (I am guessing this is a bit of money, but I have no idea as I do not know anything about car racing)

Now I have never view scouting as a hobby. rather i have viewed as a program that helps me fulfill my christian duties (mainline presbyterian, fyi), through guiding and mentoring young men through their formative years. To boot, it is more of a missionary thing, than a hobby. And no, i am not a preacing SM, but one who expects grace at a meal and a scouts own service on campouts, no evangilizing.

After that statement, i had a moment where I questioned myself and wondered if I am making scouting out to be more than it is. This was counter balanced by the comments by the boys: Thanks Mr. B, you really helped us achieve (insert a goal here). I initially got into scouting because i found myself with a bit of extra time, an enthusiastic son with some great friends and thought, well if my son and i are having fun, why not a couple of more... this has turned into many more over the years.

I can see where this interpretation would come from, as this committee member is well aware of the many different jobs i have served at over the years, but i have always viewed it as: Well it would be neat for my kid, why not his friends, and it evolved into, well the rest of the pack/troop would enjoy this and in the past, into well the scouts of the district would like this. Maybe I should also pass this onto the adult leaders of the council to share.....

My question after much rambling

How would you respond to the statement that scouting is only your hobby and therefore you should pick up the tab.

I will (hopefully) have a 13 year old eagle scout. My role as SM is to help him develop and demonstrate his character to himself, the patrol, the troop and most importantly the adults.

History. this boy, after attending his first tiger meeting stated he wanted to become an eagle scout immediately.

His determination is awe inspiring, but leads to many learning opportunities as a boy scout, especially his temper. He is not the best communicator. I believe his brain works faster than everything else.

So instead of the SPL "testing" him as a Patrol Leader, where he would be destined to failure at his age, he is our scribe. He is the best scribe I've worked with. His notes are as detailed as the ones us adults use every day. He follows up on all of his own tasks, but also with each patrol scribes and works with the publicity committee member as well.

When he first joined he told me of his goal. I let him know how hard this was going to be. I left him with the following thoughts, which, thankfully for all the troop he has tried to follow: Knowing the skill for one week after being taught could get that skilled signed off, but a young eagle scout would probably know how to teach this skill to other scouts when called upon. (He is one of our better cooks) I talked to him about leadership positions and the perception of a scout who does and the scout who is only there physically. He as embraced his positions to the best of his ability.

His determination is two fold. One is personal, to be the youngest scout in the troop to be an eagle and two (and this is why I do not slow him down, but guide him) to set an example to show other scouts that it can be done if you are committed to a goal

Feedback from other scouts is that they believe he will do it and he will have earned it.

Hardest challenge I have conveyed to him is leading the project. To help set him up for success, he will be giving the lead role on service projects for star and life (we run it this way in our troop to help all scouts cut their teeth on running service projects, with PLC and adults providing help and guidance)

the question is not necessarily maturity, but ability.

did your scout achieve his goals and earn advancement? If you the SM signed off, then I would have to believe he did.

When you talked to the scout and the parents, where the specifics addressed in terms of rank, leadership? Did you have means of measuring thescouts efforts against stated goals? Did the plan stay on track, and if not, how where the scout's plans modified? Did those modifications ensure that a goal was reached [this is easy, if he adjusted, he earned rank, if he did nothing....]

In one respect, the denial should be used as a learning opportunity in preparation of presentation of the eagle project to the district advancement committee, but i don't like it, as I know it would be overturned at an appeal BoR.

Personal Thought, I do not think the majority of scouts will attain eagle by 13, BUT there are some who will.

these kids are organized

these kids pretty much only do scouting

these kids need adult guidance

these kids will need adult interferece with "unbelieving" adults, yes a cheer leader

these kids need to understand that failure is okay [typically these kids will have the hardest time with failure, IMHO thus the guidance of adult association]

SPL and PLC, SM's and Committee should have open communication on this rare scouts intentions so that encouragement is there, to help the young scout pick himself up after failure and mostly to prevent "roadblocks" from popping up.

In hindsight, they will have attained it. Most times they have earned an eagle award in a harder way, because of their age/maturity and unfortunately, as time goes on, they will always have to hear comments about how no thirteen year old can properly earn an eagle.

Let's all try to avoid putting a young scout in that position. Better to ask how the young man accomplished his goal than to dismiss it based only on age.

As for what a picture is worth... in my son's scoutbook, the lashing picture shows the impossible, there is no hitch to hold the lashing together on the shear lashing picture.

If it is true that the book is designed for mostly up to first class, then we are cheating the kids and this will cause me to come up with another reason for emphasizing the book. I used to tell the scouts that this is the book with all the info to become an eagle scout.

Infact, I would not only add back in the pages, but would include the PL book section also to serve as a goal/reminder to all scouts the responsibilities of a PL.

Guess I should at least make the appearance of reading the post. I apologize for the confusion.

Concerning Advanced Leadership techniques, mostly for Round table, but applicable to commissioners. What trait/technique would you recommend to share with leaders. (Looking for specific examples, not the four different styles of leadership here)

I have an older syllabus covering this topic, which I am presenting at an upcoming Univ. of Scouting but I would welcome your thoughts on this.

What things would you suggest as being "Advanced" leadership. I only have 40 minutes, so on paper goes the many different ways of: recruiting staff, organization, jobs and communication, as well as quality displays, varying presentation techniques.etc.

What aspects/traits of a good leader, either yourself or one you admire, are things to be emulated.

Tx in Advance

J

Used to be an owl

Rooster

I feel a kindred spirit on this issue.

Too often, I have seen good intentions implemeted wrongly. I.E. an adult patrol, set up for a good example, telling the young scout, almost with glee, no you cannot share, this is the adult patrol's meal. Instead of taking the time to develop a working relationship, an opportunity to teach, the effort has been sidetracked into a wrongheaded display.

As for religion, and the diversity of religion, I agree that it is insulting to tuck away the way I pray so as not insult someone.

To resolve this dilema, I encourage and promote different prayers of different faiths that the youth or leaders practice. It is more important that youth see and understand devotion, no matter what faith and to make no distinction or favoritism of faith. I take from your thread that this is what you are conveying.

At the round table which I commission.... I have set up a schedule of prayers from different faiths. Matching folks to this can be a job, but it is important to let scouters see in action expressions of these different faiths.

Back to Patriotism/Duty to God/Duty to Country. We are touching on the service requirements here. I believe service should be meaningful. (i.e. the program that I am vaguely aware of for way more that an hour a week does: Caroling for elderly, shut ins and sick folks, I want to get the boys to give back to the communitiy by doing good deeds for folks who are sick or can no longer manage painting a fence, raking leaves etc. all of which serve the community, put beliefs in practice and promote a greater sense of what scouting is to our youth)

I hope the message of it is more than just camping or who makes the best DO stew gets across. I hope that when the youth engage in challenging endeavors, such as orienteering, mountain climbing, planning that big trip, etc that all of us take the time to explain the why and whats to the boys.

Great thread Rooster, thank you

Its on the front page, on the left hand side, right below mission statement of the BSA and above FACTs and Statements. Click on the button and and follow the bouncing ball...

In Jersey here (with a little part of this whiny state below the Mason Dixon Line)

Coffee, either light and sweet(kids), regular(young adults) or black (adults) and coffee is not just a breakfast drink, its an all day thing and it comes in 16 oz or 20 oz. Oh, and it comes with milk not cream (Never can get my coffee right below the mason dixon line, its always with cream, ugh)

Pork Roll, also called Jersey's finest Taylor Ham, with and egg and cheese on a hard roll with salt, pepper and ketchup (DS, if you thought you had fumigation problems with your menu, look out)

Breakfast most opted for a buttered hard roll

Lunch - the quientessial Rueben: Corned beef cooked to just about disintergration served on top of thick toasted rye bread, with russian dressing and a bed of saurkraut, all topped with a thick layer of melted swiss cheese.

Dinner: Your choice, Italian, thai, Indian, portugese (oooh pork and clams), Spanish, German, American....etc Personally I go for the Thai, Shredded beef in hot sauce (with purple basil, fish sauce and peppers), coconut/ginger soup, or a thin crust pizza (never Pizza Hut, thats for transplants) with a just enough cheese, not too much, and either sausage peppers and onions or with bacon and mushrooms....

Money is the root of all evil... so I always included a break down of money in (reg. fees) and money out (awards, Blue and Gold, trips, pack expenses) and emphasized the need to sell popcorn so that we only needed on fundraiser. Include explanations of Nat. membership & boys life costs.

KISMIF - Keep it simple, make it fun! A 20-30 page document will only serve to keep folks away.

At www.usscouts.org there is a page with hints and tips for new leaders, that essentially is what BW and the rest are saying.

Send home the tip sheet, set up a time to watch Fast Start (available from District Training Chair or D.E. ) with your new leaders. Get them to RT and to Training.

Most folks will read the boys handbook to devise meetings. Suggestions for them, local trips. I point out that den trips are a great chance for us adults to go places we always wondered about (Inside of the police station, the 911 center, rescue equipment, manufacturing facilities) The program is a great door opener (make sure you find out if the tour permit is needed for an in town trip, our council used to want a tour permit for every trip, now only trips out of council and I am sure that is going to change again soon, ask your District Executive)

AS for CSLB Book, keep it in your pack library, show it at a leaders meeting. Most leaders don't ask for it or ever read it. They do however like the How To Book better!

Go to Round Table Get the Will to Do and theSkill to Do... and your RT commissioner should love to hear that he has an opportunity to present a den leaders break out session!!!

CS RT commish

Tackle it head on. Recognize the importance of the other activities then spring it this way.

With sports, you're on the sidelines, Music, you're writing a check and listening to practice, BUT with Scouts You are involved with your son. Your participation is up to you, but you will be involved, your entire family can be involved. What may seem like regimented chaos is in fact a busy, hands on fun activity that will leave more of a mark on your son than all the other. Don't you want your son to be able to make moral and ethical decisions? Don't you want your son to learn team work, leadership? Don't you want your son to be part of a world wide movement.

Down the line, from the journey of cubscouts, even more opportunities abound for scouting youth, from Jamborees to High adventure activities to eagle scout scholarships.

Every year scouts from across the nation get to meet the president of the US, How many community soccer players do?

I would further emphasize that time management is just that. We always find the time to do the things we like. Is there a reason you don't like scouts, then listen and try to help.

As for burnout, remember why you are there. And unfortunately, scouting is not for everyone, but for who scouting is, including you, it should be fun.

Good Luck

I think everyone missed an obvious training for youth, council JLT

we also participate in a a six council commissioner college, pow wow, as well as powder horn. There is also outdoor webelos leader training.

I'd like to take this change topromote Round Table...where the serious stuff takes place (Like Fun , development of group resource, etc)

So how about I refer to the troop as.... my neighbors aunt daugters son whose dog runs in my cousins yard with my kid belongs to a troop....

Seriously, I can see BW point, but disagree that saying "my troop" denotes so negative or causal relations. If you truly try to live up the oath and law, the possessiveness tendancies should not be tied into your venacular nor your behavior.

I always tell the trainees at training Try not to be subjugated to ubiquitious displays of esoteric parlance

And splitting hairs on semantics, though some say a waste of time, have been humorously full filling in its own odd way.

could everyone agree that using "my troop" as a way of expressing pride or to simplify the expression "the troop I serve or am associated with" is okay if we stay alert to the malfeance that lurks behind these innocent words.

It really is hard to judge a book by its cover. I once heard a fellow scouter describe his son's eagle project. He simply stated that he ran a variety show for seniors at large senior home in his town. My first impression was... a campfire????

Turns out he involved not just scouts from his troop, but the thespian group from H.S., got a couple of costume and set designers from NYC to contribute as well a an audio system so the seniors could hear what was going on. He also spent time finding out the likes dislikes of thegroup (seniors) to provide a fitting program.

So How did I find that out... by saying to this scouter "never heard of a project like that, tell me more....

What seems like many years ago to me, I too was in your situation. I just announced that this is what we would be doing at pack night. The biggest hurdle is the parents, but they too will come around.

I would suggest you and a couple of adults doing a skit at the first meeting. I would further suggest that this is the last skit you do for the year. Why, so the boys can go and do their thing and not be in competition w/adults. Need skits, go to www.macscouter.com and follow skit links. check out baloo at usscouts.org

As for songs, i couldn't carry a tune in a bucket, but that hasn't stopped me. In fact, folks who can sing and understand what a tune and rythym are, stepped forward to help "keep the song on track" and did their best to "outsing" me. It did not take long for the pack to embrace this. It is so representative of scouting spirit and will only serve to make your program stronger.

After you are done preforming, let the dens know that they are responsbile for a song/skit/story/stunt/walkon each month. Break it up. You will be surprise at what happens.

Laurie

identifying the untrained is the first step. Your district has a training chair, ask your D.E. for their name and see if you can set up a "pack" training event.

I also suggest round table, where you are given the will to do and the skill to do, plus loads of information on district/council events like camporees, cub o ramas, etc.

I also would council you to get some more help on board, in addition to you and the CC, to help implement the program. (An advancement person, a treasurer and a secretary would be a nice start).

The information of registered scouts can be gotten from your D.E. or the registrat at the service center. The copy of the charter roster would be your starting point on where you are at with number of tigers/cubs/webelos in your unit.

And scouting should be a year round program. After the blue and gold, a pack night a month and in the summer The National Summertime awards program (which is an outing a month in June/july/Aug). and no, you don't and shouldn't be running all this. There will be plenty of adults in your unit who would be willing to org. and run one event, like a summertime outing.

Good Luck and God Bless

singed feathered owl

Rudd Baron - forgive the non horse folks, as they might not quite get it when it comes to horsemanship....

As for a patch or an award, I would suggest reaching out to the United States Pony Club and see if they would sponsor a cross program patch. This org. empasizes many of the same principles as scouting, but it is applied to horsemanship. It is a global enterprise and quite large in the U.S. They emphasize: Horsemanagement, riding ability, competition in: Dressage, show jumping, combined training, games, polocross. They also run a program, tetrathalon, which is composed of horsemanagement, swimming, running, shooting and showjumping. If you need contact information, let me know.

tx

ex pony clubber

Forget the money.

I have done this in the past for thanks at cub resident camps>

Once, staff was having a b-day party for camp director, Myself and about 8 other leaders picked up the tab for the pizza.

Every year, I make dinner and dessert on the fire and invite those folks who are helping the boys. (Tends to be the Counselors who run the Dan Beard or Brown sea island program) This also allows the new scouts to "thank the counsler.

At day Camp: Though I have never had a den chief at resident camp so the thought never arouse. If you feel that you should give something, how about: If the Den chief is into magic cards, give him a pack. or something small. Better yet, have the boys make him something, I think he would cherish that more!!! and give him a reminder of the service he gave!!!

Can't believe Chinatown and whats left of Little Italy where not mentioned.

Also: South St. Sea port (I think very touristy, but it is right near the Staten island ferry debarkment center).

Check with someone who knows, or consult "fodors' etc for places to eat. If you wait until you are hungry you will pay. If a place is highly recommended, don't be put of by appearances. Some of the best meals I have had are in places I would have walked by if not recommended and some of theworst meals I have had are ones at the "glitzy or stylish" restaurants. (Unless you like paying $12 for a burger for lunch at Planet Hollywood, etc)

Don't be afraid of the subways either, just be smart and go as a group.

My Mother In Law says one of the best trips to the city was a tour of harlem (Way, Way uptown)

And, being from Jerzee, i can attest that NY'ers are not rude nor brash, just in a hurry, least compared to us Jerseyians

Actually, starting now, Webelos are not to camp with a troop at CAMPOREES, rather they are only invited to visit for the day.

http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/18-260/index.html click on the html or the pdf version and you will see it clearly stated.

I was told at Philmont that the reason for this was to spur councils to develop a cub scout camping program, that there where too many instances of relying on camporees for the cub scouting program.

Webelos are encouraged to go camping with a troop still, just not at a camporee. I am sure this just will stir up the issue, but I am only forwarding on the web site (official BSA) and the reasonings given at PTC

i'm surprised no one has mentioned their valet...

Eammon

At PTC, the national staff while presenting the promotion part of cub scout round table, had as there number three point: Go out and visit the units that are not coming to RT! It was in black and white and the idea is to bring RT on the road to a troubled unit or a unit that has a gate keeper. There might not be a reason for a boy scout round table commissioner to visit, but National has said it is entirely appropriate for a CSRTC to go out and meet and greet and bring the program.

Just got back from Philmont and I just gotta say....Go if you can!!!

It was a truly outstanding week, from the first view of the tooth of time to the closing campfire, the program was outstanding. I met and made friends with fellow scouters from coast to coast and even Hawaii. It will take me a month to go over and process all the great information and program ideas that I am taking back with me. My son and daughter who accompanied me both said this week was better than the vacation at disneyworld. One thing that is momentous for the kids is the environment where they can be as free as the antelope and deer!!!

Called my wife and told her to sell everything and meet me out west! Had to go home to talk her into that...stay tuned

Seriously though, for a scouter, like myself, a little on the burnt side, Philmont Training Center was awe inspiring. The ideas that flowed back and forth from attendees and staff never ended, even when the class was over for the day. So go if you can!!!