Its Me

Why do parents pick a youth sports game over a scout campout? Is there a team element that exist in sports that is missing in scouting? We have our annual Cub scout campout in one week put on by the council over two nights. Its usually a good program with activities through out the day on saturday a big camp fire program at night. My assistant den leader just informed that he won't get there until saturday 5:00 PM. His boys (a Tiger and a Bear) each have soccer games. So! My boy does too I am the coach but we are going camping. Are my piorities flipped?

We (bear den) meet at the library for most functions. Occasional we will meet in my barn/workshop if we are making a craft that is not appropriate for a library. I like holding den meetings at the library meeting room its off a hall and isolated so that a little noise spill over wont disturb the readers. I like the library: 1) it makes a neutral environment for my son. 2) There are far fewer distractions such as toys, phone calls and TV in another room. 3) My parents stay so there would be little room for 20-24 people in my house every week. 4) the lighting is great and with 12 tables there is plenty of work space.

Eammon, that is a great topic on the value of having the parents present at den meetings. The good: Having the parents there has really helped for the families to bond (read boys too). I am pleased that the families all call each other for help or to take another kid along on a non scouting activity. The bad: if the kid struggles at all at the den, with a craft or tasks mom or dad is right there to help them. We were making the balsa wood rockets a couple of den meetings ago and about half the kids made their own. Most had different levels of help from mom or dad. One kid, actually a very talented kid wanted a super special rocket complete with a profile of a pilot. Well an eight year cant carve the silhouette of a pilot but dad can. So junior watched as his dad carved the space man in the cockpit.

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I would allow den camping at the wolf and bear levels.

The word program is thrown around too much where really the word system should be used. The Boy Scout system uses a series of age appropriate programs to develop the finer qualities of a male youth. There are also recruiting programs, running a pack grogram and camping programs. Each individual program is integral to system that develops the child.

No one, not me or Backpacker or any one else of recent memory has expressed that the system does not work. We have not even gone so far as to that say individual programs are failing. But within each individual program there may be opportunities for changes that would enhance the overall experience for the child or make an individual program more efficient to run.

Flat tire example:

You get a flat tire, go to install the donut spare only to learn that the air has leaked out. Silly you the program says that if you checked your tire pressure monthly you would be almost assured of this not happening. Yes the program is correct. But being a chauffer for three kids, a member of this group and that, I only checked it once every six months.

Now what-if the manufacturer switched to a foam filled spare? There would be no need to check for air leaking out since there is none. The first down side may be cost, can that be over come? Certainly the spare would still need to be inspected for gashes or damage from road debris. What would the inspection interval be? Is there a net improvement. And so-on. .

The point is not that the system of Boy Scouting is under attack. It is not. It is a great System.

In case you missed it BOY SCOUTING IS A GREAT SYSTEM.

But a critical evaluation of individual programs should be allowed without retribution on a public forum

Its actually a little funny to see Bob White as the first to reply to this thread, and then try to redirect the thread to what he wants to sermonize on in his thread.

Here is why Bob White is actually harming this forum. We are not making policy here. We are not an authoritative body. We are discussing (some anyway) the highs and lows of scouting. The what-ifs are exactly what should be discussed here. Bob White openly admits he has no patience for many ideas on this forum. But tolerance would be a better word. Bob's intolerance for any dissention, intolerance for any outside the box thinking and intolerance for those who don't think like he does, cannot be checked. Bob is compelled to immediately dismiss the person or hurl insults. If we can't "what-if" or look in a critical manner at programs or policies that could be changed on this open public forum then where should it be discussed? In Bob White's mind it should never be discussed. You what-ifers should just leave scouting.

Bob here is one thing you and I will agree on. I am glad you are not involved with our pack.

"Its Me,

Can you show me where any Moderator of this forum has sided with Bob White to the measure of closing a thread in his defense? "

Specifically No. Although at first some threads were locked possibly prematurely, the lost scout thread comes to mind. In general the moderators of this form do and outstanding job of letting the threads run their natural course. Keep up the good work.

Ed careful since that question has already been directed at Bob and he supplied only a rhetorical answer there only two likely ends to this:

1) Bob retreats and resorts to lurking and sending private messages for several months as he did over the summer

2) The moderator fearing that Bob has he gotten in over his head and will soon retreat, locks the thread.

Like a dear Abby column I enjoy reading Bobs replies. They are simple and to the point follow the program. There is nothing wrong with that type of advice. Its similar to a golf pro instructing you to keep head down and follow-through. Simple right?

But like a moth to the flame I cant resist:

Bob, I started out with 8 boys in my wolf den and seven made it to rank. One did not manly because the mother did not have the time or the interest to bring the boy to the pack and den meetings. Was my program successful?

hops_scout let's stick with the sports analogy for a minute. The uniform for baseball is virtually the same around the county. Its form follows function, long pants for sliding short sleeves for summer and a hat for the sun. In soccer the uniform is designed to meet its application with shin guards, shorts and synthetic shirts, and football has its pads and helmet. The uniform matches the narrow focus of the activity. In scouting we see a broad range of activities. Could we not offer a selection of uniforms that would identify the boy as a scout yet still have specific qualities that make the uniform more appealing and applicable to regional and local focus?

Bob define "works".

Is it that all kids who entry scouting stay in until reaching Eagle?

(This message has been edited by Its Me)

For three years I audited industrial maintenance and operational programs, (OSHA 1910.119 PSM) to be exact. The 24 separate facilities we covered had programs for every little operational upset as well as full scale failure and emergency procedures. On paper nearly all the programs were terrific. As long as this guy did this and that guy was certified for that and another guy signed off on the whole thing everything was perfect. On paper how could it fail?

But it did fail. Not often but it did. The reason it did is because faced with operating the facility or waiting for a signature the decision would be to run the facility.

BSA is the same way. As long as every position is filled with trained adults who have the time and commitment to do the job it will run smooth. But often the program cant be applied exactly as it is written. And although the program is sound it just cant be implemented in all aspects. Faced with similar decision the operators will run with what they have, hoping that they have covered the most important parts to keep the system safe and functional.

So Bob your plea for finding where the program has not worked is unrealistic, or idealistic. On paper sure it will work, it always does. In practice we read every day on this Form about the difficulties in applying the programs.

Thus no matter how good the program is on paper, if it can't be applied in the manner in which it was designed is it still a good program?

Eamonn, the cotton, button down collared shirt may be working well in an Ohio suburb but that material and cut is not suited for Miami. I think the BSA will eventually recognize that in places like Ohio where the traditional uniform is revered it may be left unchanged but in places where scout institutions aren't as strong, variations of the standard uniform will be offered to bring kids into the program.

I believe the uniforms are in need of updating. I don't have a specific design but I would pattern it towards an outdoor program.

Surprisingly I saw some sheriff deputies at lunch this week and their uniforms just looked more functional. The original uniform was patterned off the military. I believe in the benefits of uniforms. Thats my idea of a uniform.

However, more than likely the way the BSA will handle this is they will allow for a variety of unifroms. First it will be a single alternative to the traditional uniform. Then more styles will come, possibly as many as five or six.

This trend can be seem in the books. I have a 1950's Bear book and its simply and straight forward, 12 requirements plain and simple. The 2004 bear book still requires only 12 requirements but has 24 separate thymes plus multiple alternatives on each of those. Basically BSA implies that the Bear may choose the program he wants

An overall Bear book comparison will be left for another thread. But the point is that the BSA will likely offer several uniforms so that the outfit may match the program.

You are correct that the uniform issue is complex. I believe that making the uniform mandatory would eliminate all complexities from the equation.

If it were that simple it wouldn't be complex.

As for the need to constantly remind people to wear the uniform, this issue goes away when it becomes routine for the boys to wear their uniforms. The expectation should be that the boys wear the uniform all the time unless told otherwise.

Enforcement! That's what it is. Thanks its so simple we must be the only pack in the world not having full uniforms participation.

The dad can be a schlep or a smuck, but odds are that he enrolled his son in CS partially because of an association with what the uniform stands for.

I am not arguing with what the uniform stands for. You have purposely tried to switch the debate. I am saying the uniform itself is part of the reason that enforcement is a problem.

Can I assume that you believe that the uniform design in no way contributes to the enforcement issue?

With traditionalist it's ALWAYS the first line volunteer leadership that is the problem.

The programs are never wrong

The policies are are never wrong

And certainly the uniforms are never wrong.

Rather its the shlep of a Dad you isn't following BSA rules that is the problem.

One would be wrong if they always saw it this way. And I belive many on this Form see it this way as a matter of course.

The unifrom issue is more complex than just mandating that it be worn. The complexities arise in that the boy and parent have to be told (repeatedly) that jr. must wear it.

Kids don't wear the uniforms because they are impractical.

We just had a Bear outing to park and cooked out. My son and the new scout were the only ones in uniform. I didn't tell the other scouts to wear their uniform nor did I say don't. Left to make a choice the scout and the parent would rather he not wear the uniform.

Why?

Because they are seen as a serious uniform to worn for parades and official use only. Not as playground and craft wear. Why would a kid risk a shirt which has such serious patches as and awards that took him nine months to earn on a park or playground? He doesn't want to ruin it. Neither does mom.

Uniforms need to match the activities that they will be used for. What are cub activities? For Bears its some talking activities but mostly its making stuff and physical activity.

Seventy years ago people wore ties to school and suits to church. Back then a button down collared shirts would have been casual wear, now its tee-shirts and jeans at school and an open neck collard shirt at church.

The military has two uniforms one for dress with all the campaign ribbons and awards and one for the field. The field one may have only a modest suggestion of rank.

The cub uniform is seen by BSA as so precious that camp patches may not be attached. If the uniform is too precious for cub awards then it is surely too precious to make musical instruments with glue and paint. And the uniform is too precious to wear ion an overnighter where it might get torn or stained.

Uniforms arent worn because the scout and the parent see them as parade wear only.

Update the uniforms and more kids will wear them.

The stock reply would be to talk to her. But that doesn't sound like its going to get you far. But it is a required step.

Stick to your guns. If you show up prepared to every meeting, demonstarte good organization skills and sound planning the parents will be right there with you.

Is this position with your Pack, District or Council?

Foto you have personalized this issue too much. He has rejected even your best efforts and that burns you. Its almost like its payback time. You rejected me so I will reject you "cue evil laugh" bwahahahaha.

Step back from this for a minute. Kids quit activities for all sorts of reasons. Scouting isn't easy it takes a lot of commitment. Look if you let him go your legacy with this boy will be one of a true blue guy. It will be hard for him or his family to ever blame you for his departure from scouting. Finish the job you started. Let him go.

I don't see this the exact way you are presenting it as a "Darned if I do, Darned if I don't". I think over all there will be far less agony if you just let the kid go. I bet the parents that are staying in scouting are far more understanding about the kid being allowed to go then the family being asked to forfeit the deposit. The path of least resistance is to let the kid go. Suck it up for two days and in the morning wish him well. Then thank goodness he is out of your life.

The dad and the boy's mom need to talk. The mom must speak to her father and state the reasons why the boy's dad is the one to do scouting with the child and not the father in law. Divorced or happily married it should not matter. Dad's have the first right of refusal.

Something is a miss here. After looking for the boy for 10 tens day they still can't find him? There has to be another factor such as an abduction, suicide or bear. I know 12 year olds can do dumb things, but he is a BOYscout and if his dad is scoutmaster and the unit elected to go wilderness camping, then the boy is not COMPLETELY inexperienced. For us to consider that he walked for miles upon miles and then descended a cliff or similar event just doesn't add up. I suspect external factors played a big role in the boys demise.

I am none-the-less extremely saddened by this.

I hope he will be found.

I have setup a Google News search with istant notification for any article that conatins the words "Lost & Scout".

He is too young to die.

Rooster, you are right there is a twinge of jealousy. It would be nice to have both. There is a trade off though; most very wealthy people have worked their butt of to get there. I think its natural for there to be times when one thinks "yea it would be nice to have job where I could afford a" (boat, nicer car, larger house, or a Lear jet). But those thoughts fade as you turn to look at your children eagerly waiting for some help with homework, an adventure, a story or hug.

Its a fine line between living for the future and living in the present.

That's it, I will call and cancel the order on the Lear. It was going to be a nice one too. A deep Boyscout blue with a teak interior.

Just yesterday my compassion and desire to see good in people got the better of me. On my way into a restaurant for a lunch a man approached me with a story of a man in need. I felt sympathetic towards his plight with wife and kids in despair. I gave him $3.00 and went to lunch feeling as though I had helped a guy out.

Later I learned that although the area where I went for lunch is a well-to-do, there are many pan handlers in that particular parking lot. The story I repeated was a common approach used by other pan handlers. Evidently, the main bus line that runs along the road provides public access to all who seek to be there.

So instead of helping a man in despair, I most likely just contributed to his addictions and social disorder.

Scoutingus, please move to another corner.(This message has been edited by Its Me)