andysmom

Our council does this, kind of.   They have 1 day at one camp to finish merit badges started at camp that for various reasons couldn't be finished.  I know that if any scouts from our unit attended it would be if they didn't qualify in shooting sports, catch a fish for the fishing merit badge or waterfront badges that couldn't be completed because of weather.

Setting up a completion day specifically for "eagle required"  badges is ridiculous and in my opinion, weakening the integrity of the rank. 

We have a scout right now who had his Eagle BOR in December 2 mos, 3 weeks and 4 days after his 18th birthday.  he apparently does not want a COH and all of our attempts at recognizing his achievement before the troop (regular COH, troop meeting, annual mini golf and ice cream outing) have been fruitless.  One of our old timers has stated that he isn't an Eagle Scout until his COH.... nonsense.  The Scoutmaster found out he will be in attendance at an Eagle COH for one of his friends tomorrow evening and he will be "presented" with his kit, certificate and a gift from the Scoutmaster in private.  He earned it and he should have it, however he wants to receive it.

The adults pay their own way for everything. 

Same here

Tomorrow evening is my last meeting time set up for collecting our forms since I will be getting them pre screened on Tuesday (our boys will report to camp Sunday).

I am happy to report that only one scout has not turned in his forms and I got an email saying that he will be having his physical Monday morning.......

After 4 years of being in charge of the paperwork, word has apparently gotten around that I know what I am talking about when it comes to knowing what the camp and the state require on the medical forms.  Finally.

Many congratulations to you and your son.

The Eagle Rank is always something to be proud of and as a Mom to a scout on the spectrum, I can imagine how you feel.

ok, so here's an example of what I was getting at

the re-test...... and what this whole BOR thing is anyway.

In this discussion, we're saying it's a conversation, and so on....

 

I did a quick search hoping to be able to quote chapter and verse

found this

http://scoutingmagazine.org/2008/11/this-is-not-a-test/

 

 

so from that reference,

According to The Scoutmaster Handbook, the purpose of the board of review is “not to retest a Scout, but rather to ensure that he has completed all of the requirements, to determine the quality of his troop experience, and to encourage him to advance toward the next rank. Each review should also include a discussion of ways in which the Scout sees himself living up to the Scout Oath and Law in his everyday life.â€

 

So this is the TRAINING & GUIDANCE we get?

if the purpose is NOT to re-test, how is it then that we are to ensure that he completed his requirements?

If we don't re-test, then what can we do to that end?  

We can ensure that he has the required sign offs.  A document check.

The article goes on to elaborate on that, but that's really it boiled down, isn't it?

We can pretty much figure out if a scout has completed the requirements just by talking to him about them.  "Johnny, you had to fix a meal for your patrol on a campout, what did you make?  How was it?  Was there anything you should have done differently?" , "who did you teach the square knot to?", "was it easy for them?", "if I asked them to tie it right now, do you think they could?".  None of those questions would qualify as a retest, but they do let us know that the scout completed the requirements.  The committee has to trust that when a requirement is signed off that the scout has mastered the skill, if there is concern in that area it must be taken up with "program", the Scoutmaster.  That is not the job of the committee.

We speak to the boys about what they enjoy about scouting and the troop and what we can do better.  We talk about bullying and about who his friends are in the troop, about his patrol and is patrol leader.  We want to be sure the troop is functioning as it should be.  We talk to him about school and home and ask him if scouting and the oath and law has helped him with any challenges he has faced in those area to see that he is living by the oath and law.

Personally, unless a scout has been found to have broken the law or some other serious infraction, I do not think that they should be held from advancing.  The committee is not the "gatekeeper" to rank.  Anything that should keep a scout from advancing to the next rank should have been taken care of by the time they get to the board of review.

I know parents who have created Facebook accounts for their under 13 year old kids, so I wouldn't assume the young scout is lying about his age.  Many parents want their kids to be "popular" and social media gives them the opportunity to interact with people from the relative safety of their own homes.  Do I agree with it?  No, my son does not have any social media accounts.  As an adult leader I have chosen not to accept friend requests from any of our scouts, however I know outstanding leaders who are friends with the scouts.  Nothing I have seen forbids it (unless you are sending private messages) but I would suggest to really think about who your friends are and who their friends are.  I certainly don't want any of my scouts to see something on my Facebook wall that may have been posted or re posted by one of my friends that may be considered offensive or worse. 

$175 a year. 

$5 per campout

One fundraiser, popcorn, proceeds split between troop and earmarked for individual scout

Summer camp is not included, badges, rank, camping fees, replacement of troop equipment are.

I feel your pain as I am the "keeper of the medical forms" for our troop as well.

I keep the forms all year since form A and B are needed for all activities.  The issue with summer camp is the form c that requires the physical. 

Since I keep the forms from year to year I have the dates of the required tetanus vaccine and the copy of the insurance card that, if it hasn't changed, transfer from one application to the next.

I check forms evry couple of months and if a scout is getting close to expiring I will alert the parents via email.  If form A and B expire before a canpout the parents can fill those out at pretty much any troop meeting (remember I already have the date of the vaccine and insurance card)  If there is new insurance, I snap a couple pics with my phone and print them out when I get home.  For the forms for summer camp I know what the camp looks for because I have been doing it long enough so I can pre screen forms for errors when they are handed in.  We do not require forms when camp is paid for but we have an annual camp meeting about 6 weeks out when I will collect them and then usually one night every couple weeks until I take everything to camp to get it prescreened.  If I don't have the form for prescreening it is on the scout and the parents.  Yeah, it's alot of work and it would be easier if parents kept on top of it, but they dont.

It does help that I have been doing it for several years so I know what is required, and the parents know that I know what I am talking about now so they listen.

Good luck.

So very sorry.

Sending prayers for comfort and healing for their families, your troop and your community.

Ok for some reason my comments didn't stick with the quote. I wonder if you live on my neck of the woods, untill 5-6 years ago we had the same type of " scoutmaster" if he decided you were not worthy there was no way you would ever be appointed patrol leader, quartermaster, spl. Or anything else. Eagle? Shoot you would be lucky to get star even if you had two dozen merit badges, and a gold honor medal.

The other troop in our town has had the same "Scoutmaster" for 20 years.

He "can tell"  if a scout is going to "make it in Scouting" within 2 months of crossing over.

If he is not going to "make it in scouting" he is urged to quit.

He has been a very good "recruiting tool" for us because according to him we "take everyone", and he is right.

In a troop with the attitudes you describe, he's right.  The Scouts will leave as soon as they Eagle.  My oldest son has been fairly actively (unless sports interferes) involved with scouting since he got his Eagle over two years ago.  In fact, he's having much more fun in scouting because of it--no advancement to worry about.

 

My point is that he doesn't know. Most of our scouts do not reach eagle until they are ready to leave for college or they are 18. We have a 17 year old eagle who is at troop meetings unless it is robotics season. This CC is not at meetings so he does not know who is there. He is assuming that Eagles will leave. He has no evidence of that.

The other thing I am seeing is that there are some here who do seem to equate wearing the uniform with scout spirit. Of course we encourage our scouts to wear their uniform and as I said, most do. In my opinion, some members of the committee are looking for "legitimate" ways of keeping boys from advancing. Since they are being challenged on the "they are just not ready" or "they are not mature enough", they are moving onto the "show scout spirit" requirement and saying that a boy isn't showing scout spirit if he doesn't wear his neckerchief or doesn't take off his sweatshirt during meetings, and therefor have a reason to hold him back. Personally, I think it is something to discuss, but not a reason to hold a scout back. I am not always sure I interpret the BSA policy correctly so o co,e here to see how others interpret it.

 

It's not the Scouts not understanding what Scout Spirit means the worries me - it's the not an insignificant number of adults that we read about on this forum that use Scout Spirit as a cudgel to hold people back for ridiculous things like not wearing a neckerchief or not attending the last meeting that I worry about.

Exactly my problem.

In boards of review, I don't usually ask questions about how they live the oath and law.  I see these boys at troop meetings, at school events and even in the grocery stores.  I see what they post on facebook and twitter, I know their parents and their teachers. If asked anyone can make themselves look good and will say what they think you want to hear.  I am more interested in watching our scouts when no one knows they are being watched, when they are on a school field trip or at the park with their little sister for example.  It is one of the benefits of being a Mom of a scout aged boy.  I know how they speak to me and I see how they interact with other adults, I also pay attention to how they say the pledge of allegiance, if they help the troop treasurer carry in his stuff to a troop meeting, how they are on service projects and how they behave with the new crossovers.  I don't think scout spirit is a particularly difficult thing to understand.

To clarify a couple things.

The majority of our committee members do not attend troop meetings, so they have no idea which scouts are there. We have a 17 year old Eagle Scout who does attend most meetings, he isn't there now because he is on the robotics team and they are preparing for the world championships which they qualified for last week. Our brand new 15 year old Eagle Scout (omg) plans to run for SPL for next year, he will be around. Most of our Eagles have their BOR after their 18th birthday or just before they leave for college, so of course we don't see them anymore.

Our boys are not aware (for the most part) of the tensions between the adults. SM and Cc don't speak when cc shows up for a meeting or event. Some parents know because their boys have been in the middle of things and have thanked us ( SM and myself) for standing up for their sons. I try to run interference between cc and SM, because SM is wanting to walk. He enjoys working with the boys but doesn't feel supported by the committee.

The troop is growing again, troop went from 9 to 65 and back down to 18 with the last SM, we crossed over 6 and recruited a couple who moved into the area and are up to 30 scouts now. We had 7 Eagle Scouts last year and 5 the year before. Our boys plan the program, they are stepping up in their POR (most of them).

The problem is with some members of the committee who want the program run the way it was in the 60s and 70s when they were scouts. They have some sort of invisible standards that they want to hold the scouts to, especially Eagle Scouts. They want our Eagle Scouts to be the best, as in our Eagles are better than anyone else's, not that are Eagles are the best they can be.

Our boys wear their uniform most of the time, we have 1 PL who has been lax lately. The things they are bringing up now are silly and are just ways to try to insert their "authority" over the boys. We rarely have discipline issues. Sure, we have some older scouts who don't camp as often as we would like but they have a lot going on from advanced classes, sports, jobs etc. it is not unusual and certainly not anything that deserves more than a conversation. I shot down their theory about our new life scouts being too young, so now they are looking for some other reason to hold them back.

Thanks CalicoPen.

Our current CC has no training other than youth protection. None. He was SM about 15 years ago and was basically appointed to the position behind the backs of the rest of the committee by the previous cc who wrote a letter to the CO recommending him before anyone knew the previous cc was leaving. Previous Cc held the position for 18 years and did his committee challenge then and nothing since.

Our committee is made up primarily of older men who haven't had children in the program in several years (one of them has no children but earned his Eagle rank in the troop in 1968 I believe)

SM will stand up for the boys, he has in the past and it was an ugly confrontation. DE was called in to explain that you cannot retest (boy was tossed a rope and told to tie a specific knot, boy couldn't and was "off" for the rest of the board). The scout was deferred for 2 weeks and was told that he needed to show leadership by teaching the committee how to set up a tent. Ridiculous..

They are basically looking at ways to hold boys up until the feel a scout is "ready" to advance, but no one can explain what "ready" means as it is "different for each boy". The life bor is the "last chance" to hold a boy back. The current cc has it in his head that I'd we "let" a scout eagle too soon we will never see him again.

I am just trying to get my guide to advancement highlighted and ready to pull out during a board to point out that what they are doing is wrong. SM will go to district himself with a scout if a boy is held back without cause, but as you can imagine the SM and cc do not get along

Thanks all, I agree with everything posted.

The thing is most of our boys wear the uniform to meetings. Things that are being discussed are, in my opinion, nit picky. The complaints range from, not wearing the necker, to scouts loosing their slide, to wearing bulky sweatshirts over the uniform and the one that got the ball rolling was a scout who pulls his wrinkled shirt from a plastic bag at every meeting.

Our committee chair has the misguided idea that he needs to slow boys down of he feels they are advancing too fast. This conversation came on the heels of my insisting they schedule a life bor for a scout who turned 15, 2 months ago. This same scout had his star rank deferred because he and our old cc thought he "wasn't ready" to be a star scout. The only reason it was agreed to be scheduled because I did some looking back through our records and pointed out that of our last 17 life scouts, their average age was 15 years 3 mos. this scout had his smc and requested a bor on February 22.

When he tries to hold a scout back because he equates wearing a sweatshirt over the uniform, or showing up with no necker to a troop meeting because he thinks it shows poor scout spirit, I need to have a strong argument to fight for our boys.

At last nights committee meeting there was a side rant about scouts not wearing their uniforms to troop meetings or not having their neckers or wearing sweatshirts over the uniforms. It was mentioned that there should be some sort of announcement that wearing the uniform shows scout spirit and that not wearing it properly shows a lack of scout spirit. (Scoutmaster has pointed out that a scout uniform is the same as a sports uniform, you make sure you have it, even if you have something going on before practice and the same should hold true for scout uniforms). Committee Chair stated "let me sit in on a couple of boards of review" and they will start wearing the uniform properly, implying that he would hold a boy from advancing because he is not showing scout spirit if he isn't wearing his complete uniform.

I know a boy cannot be held back from advancing because he does not wear a uniform to a bor as long as he is,neat in his appearance, but does not wearing a uniform show a lack of scout spirit? They are claiming not wearing the uniform properly goes against "a scout is clean" and "a scout is loyal" as in loyal to the troop and "a scout is obedient" as in following rules is obedient and our rules are you wear a uniform. Thoughts?

My thoughts are that it is a topic for discussion, but While the BSA prefers boys to wear the uniform as it is one of the methods of scouting, it does not require them. I should point out that all of our scouts own a uniform shirt and are asked to purchase a class B shirt and ball cap. Neckers are given to scouts when they join the troop

It is right there in black and white (see post above). I am not sure how anyone can construe the sentence "Ensure appropriate facilities for the unit for its regular meetings to facilitate the aims of the Chartered Organization and Scouting" as meaning the CO does not need to provide a place for you to meet. It clearly does and it is part of the CO agreement. The CO has to make sure you have a place to meet. That means they either give you the facility or help you find one, but the onus is clearly on THEM. And this is an annual agreement, meaning that EVERY YEAR they need to make sure you have an appropriate facility. If they did for 30 years but this year they didn't, they are in violation of the agreement.

 

The CO is required to give/find you a place to meet. If they don't you can go to the DE and work with them to find a new CO who will. They likely are in violation of the charter agreement which may render the agreement void if one of its principle tenants goes unfulfilled. 

 

I'd talk with your DE and worry less about a misinterpreted portion of one of BSA's central documents. I could say the moon is made of blue cheese, doesn't make it true.

To clarify.  My unit does not have an issue with a meeting place.

When I come to the boards it is to get insight on BSA policy, and how others interpret some of the "less than straight forward" language that BSA uses.

As I quoted above CalicoPenn stated that "The Chartered Agreements do not require CO's to provide a place to meet though a lot of people think it does."

That statement does not appear to be true and I was trying to clarify the "official" policy verses someone's "opinion".

I agree that OP should speak with his DE , but knowing the official policy can't hurt.

 

 

Can something be done about a CO that refuses to assist the pack with a place to meet and causes more issues than being helpful?  Not really - you can either accept the relationship as it is, or you just go about finding a new CO to create a new Pack.  But before we get in to that, let's clear up a misunderstanding.  The Chartered Agreements do not require CO's to provide a place to meet though a lot of people think it does.  It only requires that the CO ensures that the Unit has appropriate facilities for their regular meetings.  You meet in a school - you're meeting in an appropriate facility - maybe someone way back when got that relationship going - maybe the unit found it on its own (and the Charter doesn't even require that the CO find you a place to meet - only to ensure that the place you meet is appropriate) - the point is that the obligation has been met.

 

 

This is the statement I was trying to clarify.

 

Can something be done about a CO that refuses to assist the pack with a place to meet and causes more issues than being helpful?  Not really - you can either accept the relationship as it is, or you just go about finding a new CO to create a new Pack.  But before we get in to that, let's clear up a misunderstanding.  The Chartered Agreements do not require CO's to provide a place to meet though a lot of people think it does.  It only requires that the CO ensures that the Unit has appropriate facilities for their regular meetings.  You meet in a school - you're meeting in an appropriate facility - maybe someone way back when got that relationship going - maybe the unit found it on its own (and the Charter doesn't even require that the CO find you a place to meet - only to ensure that the place you meet is appropriate) - the point is that the obligation has been met.

 

 

That's a statement, not a question.

The working assumption here is that the CO knows what facilities are at its disposal. That includes alternate facilities in the community that may serve scouting if the CO's own are reserved for special occasions. A good COR helps a committee sort that out. A bad COR says, "Room X is only available at time T. Go fish."

 

Our Pack had an explosion in growth, so they still charter with the CO, but hold most meetings at the school cafeteria. From all accounts, that was a team decision.

 My question was in regards to whether or not a CO is required to provide a meeting place,   :-)

I do understand that it doesn't have to be in the building that belongs to the CO, but it does have to be someplace.

I have a question about this....

The Chartered Agreements do not require CO's to provide a place to meet though a lot of people think it does.  It only requires that the CO ensures that the Unit has appropriate facilities for their regular meetings.  You meet in a school - you're meeting in an appropriate facility - maybe someone way back when got that relationship going - maybe the unit found it on its own (and the Charter doesn't even require that the CO find you a place to meet - only to ensure that the place you meet is appropriate) - the point is that the obligation has been met.

This is from Scouting.org

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/Media/Relationships/TrainingtheCOR/03.aspx

By receiving a charter from the Boy Scouts of America, the chartered organization agrees to (List the following on a flip chart.)

• Conduct Scouting in accordance with its own policies and guidelines as well as those of the BSA.
• Include Scouting as part of its overall program for youth and families.
• Appoint a chartered organization representative who is a member of the organization and will represent it to the Scouting district and council, serving as a voting member of each.
• Select a unit committee of parents and members of the organization who will screen and select unit leaders who meet the organization's leadership standards as well as the BSA's standards.
• Provide adequate and secure facilities for Scouting units to meet on a regular schedule with time and place reserved.
• Encourage the units to participate in outdoor experiences.

You do have to abide by the CO's wishes about when and where you meet.  If they have something else going on the night you "normally" meet, you have to change your night.

Patrols pick the names once a year in the fall.

We don't have patches, our scouts pick strange names.  Hard to find a "Blurple" patch, for example.

This year our older scout patrol chose 3 different patrol names that were political in nature, they were told that the names were not appropriate.

We have SPL elections for the following year in the spring.  New SPL appoints 2 ASPL and Quartermaster and by summer camp they have a rough plan for the year put together to go over with the SM.

SPL puts scouts into patrols, with input from SM if he asks.  This year it was mostly by school grade with a couple people moved around because of personality conflicts, etc.  We have 3 patrols this year with about 8 boys each.  Patrols elect their PL and APL.

When WEBLOS cross in the spring they are put into their own patrol and elect their own PL and APL.  SPL appoints a troop guide to work with them.  In their patrol meetings they get training on how the troop works regarding advancement and leadership as well as working with the scouts to achieve the tenderfoot rank by summer camp.  In the fall they will be worked into the regular patrols.

We are in a fairly rural area.  26 scouts, 1 SM 3 ASM.  There is another troop less than 1/2 mile away, we seem to be more inclusive and have a few boys with developmental disabilities.  We will be getting 5 crossovers this month.

... just text a few of the parent committee members to return early or stay late to get a BOR done.  This is really not that hard of a thing.

 

Only 3 of our committee members are parents, myself, our COR who has another commitment meeting nights and a brand new mom who has been to 1 meeting. Parents drop and run, half of them we never even see. It shouldn't be hard.