andysmom

I am hoping to clear up some confusion about my previous postings.

 

 

I think that non direct contact leaders need to be re certified as well.

Why?

 

When I read the initial post, I thought Bad Wolf was referring to all training.  As a CM and AC I think about advancement.and I think it is important for committee members to be retrained every several years so they know what the changes are to the policy.

 

"I am just seeing alot of skills training and no thought as to "why" we are going on hikes and campouts for example.

Scouting is not supposed to teach scouts how to live in the woods, the outdoor program is one method of achieving the main objectives."

When I posted that, again, I did not realize that the point of the thread was about skills training.

Obviously the scouting program is intended to be run out doors.  That is what interests boys, if it interests them they will want to participate.  When they participate they will learn.

When I was referred to the 1911 edition of the Boy Scout Handbook, I might point out that we are not living in 1911 anymore.  "The Scouting program has three specific objectives, commonly referred to as the "Aims of Scouting." They are character development, citizenship training, and personal fitness."  Not teaching a boy how to live in the woods.  The outdoor program is by far the biggest way we teach that because it is what interests the boys, again, if it interests them they will want to participate.  When they participate they learn.

When BadWolf pointed out that the point of the thread was specifically about skills training, I bowed out.  I have done BALOO, the SM specific classroom training and have been to UOS many years. I have completed all the training offered online and am the recipient of all my husband's "practice" trainings), but my position in the troop does not require me to take do skills training so I really don't have much to offer to the discussion.  For the record, I am a proponent of having the best trained leaders we can, I have continued to read because I am interested in how everyone feels is the best way to achieve that.

Not disagreeing.

I am just seeing alot of skills training and no thought as to "why" we are going on hikes and campouts for example.

Scouting is not supposed to teach scouts how to live in the woods, the outdoor program is one method of achieving the main objectives.

Leaders need to be trained in the program, not just how to cook in the woods.

There definitely needs to be some evaluation of the trainers.  Sure, they follow a syllabus but some really suck.

There needs to be some re certification training every few years.

Training needs to be accessible and given often. 

I think that non direct contact leaders need to be re certified as well.

I think it would be beneficial to have different "tiers" of training.  (Basic first aide a requirement before wilderness first aide. etc)

Only very basic courses should be available online.

There are troops that I have heard of that have no trained leaders (except YP), either the leaders don't think it is important enough to do or they don't know it is available.  There are many leaders who honestly think this is a 1 hour a week job and that is all they are willing to put in.  We need to recruit better leaders who are willing to take the time to do what is best for the scouts.

As a parent of a scout with Aspergers and AHDH I can totally agree with Bad Wolf.

My son's behavior is not predictable, he can escalate VERY fast and for seemingly unknown reasons.

He has run from the room, screamed at adults, covered his ears with his hands, cried, yelled, hid under tables and more.

I have received calls from the trained professionals at the school to come in because they cannot calm him or get him to comply with demands.

I would not expect a youth leader to deal with that.  I do not ask adult leaders with that.  Either my husband or myself are ALWAYS nearby, always!

Every kid with an autism spectrum disorder is different, every kid!  Their diagnosis might be the same but their behavior is not.  We have several kids with different needs in our troop, some are obvious, some are not.  We work extremely hard to be sure each has a good experience, but in my experience a special needs scout must have very understanding leaders as well as very active parents.

My son does not participate in most troop games, everyone knows it is best if he doesn't, for various reasons.

He has been in scouts since he was a Tiger, he is now a 13 year old star scout.  He has been to resident summer camp every year. He has more community service hours than anyone else in the troop.  He has earned his year round camping award.  Last weekend he was inducted into the OA.  He is a good scout and scouting has been good for him but it certainly hasn't been easy.

Why should this scout be on the outside looking in.  I'm sure the DE has access to other Scouters that would be willing to take on the challenge of just one boy.  I've never turned a scout away for any reason.  I have tolerated a ton of bad behavior over the years, but for the most part if the adult scouter cares, they can overcome much of the problems and actually help these boys.

 

I have a scout that lives 45 miles from where we meet.  I have another that lives 20 miles away.  They come because we don't turn anyone away.  Boys realize this rather quickly and will do their best to meet one half way and a lot of poor choices are quickly replaced with more mature ones.

 

Quit fretting about two idiots in the former troop and start looking for some real scout leaders that at least try to live the Oath and Law.

Oh, I absolutely agree.  He should not HAVE to be excluded from a traditional troop and IMO troop shouldn't ever turn an interested scout away.

I apparently misunderstood the OP, I read the post that the scout was being asked to leave the troop and the family didn't want to peruse joining other troops because of having to deal with the unscout like ASMs in other capacities.  I was simply stating an option that would keep the boy in scouting as opposed to dropping out of the program all together.  I hate to see a boy drop out of scouting.

Finding another troop and reporting the ASM who are causing the problems to the DE would be my first choice of action.

You could register him as a lone scout so won't have to have an affiliation with any troop?

The CC and SM SHOULD be on equal footing as they each are responsible for different parts of the organization.  The committee is supposed to support the SM.

Before our CC would approve an application for an ASM he asked the SM how he felt about the applicant, it is after all, the SM who would be working with the ASM.  It all works best when the SM and CC respect each other and feel like they are on equal footing.  When one starts feeling like they "outrank" the other is when problems occur.

The training issue of non direct contact adult leaders is a huge pet peeve of mine.  The only specific training for committee members is the very generic Troop Committee Challenge.  It is not specific to individual positions on the committee, so there is no CC training or treasurer training or advancement training.  Like most training it only needs to be completed once and the person is trained for "life" with no regard for policy or other changes.  That can present huge issues.

How long do your courts of honor last? Our regular courts of honor are generally 30-40 minutes with skits, rank, merit badges etc. Recharter COH and the first one after summer camp are longer. If we add an Eagle COH after that we are looking at another 40-45 minutes, doesn't that seem too long to be sitting still?

Another thing about scheduling Eagle work days, is often times the scout does not have a lot of choice when things happen because of restraints given to them by benefitting organizations, material delivery schedules, weather (needing something finished before the ground freezes) etc.

Again, this is unusual because we have so many things going on right now and so many boys working on and finishing Eagle, and most of them want to get projects and ceremonies done before they go to college or camp or start summer jobs. It will slow down because we will run low on life scouts for a while. (I believe our oldest Star scout will be 16 this winter)

We also don't encourage our boys to have a stand alone Eagle COH. We present them with several ideas and let them decide what works for them. Recently most boys have had their ceremony at the church, probably because it is easier. No hall to rent etc and the families provide fruit, cheese and veggie platters, cookies and brownies and drinks. Nothing overly fancy.

The reason the scout is talking to an adult is because the SM is the only person the pastor will speak with regarding reserving rooms at the church.  The entire event is planned by the Eagle Scout and his family with the exception of booking the church and ordering a cake.  That is all the troop does.  The scout writes the ceremony and asks whomever he wants to emcee, do readings, present the Eagle badge, Eagle oath etc.  The SM usually is asked to present the rank, the CC is usually asked to speak about the Eagle process and BOR.  I generally help set up and clean up because I am usually there early because my husband has a key to the church and he unlocks the building to let everyone in.

We have never had this come up before because the Eagle Scout tells us what date he wants the ceremony (if he wants it at the church) and the SM checks to see if it is available and reserves the rooms.  If there is a project going on the same day, so be it.

The ONLY reason this is an issue now is that last weekend we had an Eagle COH and an Eagle Service Project on the same day and the new CC told the SM that in that he did not want those two types of events scheduled on the same day again.  He was told that "WE" did not schedule them, the scouts did.  He told me that I needed to strongly encourage another scout to change the date he wanted his COH because we have another Eagle project work day scheduled for the same day.

This is simply the case of one leader trying to impose his own perceived power over everyone else.

A couple of our committee members need to hang up their shirts and move on.  Maybe at one time they were volunteering for the right reasons, but it seems like they have forgotten what the right reasons are and it seems to be more of an ego trip "I volunteer for blah blah organization and blah blah organization and hold this title for blah blah" etc.  Our old SM was very passive and would roll over at the slightest confrontation and honestly toward the end didn't hold the boys to much of a standard.  My husband steps in as SM a couple years ago and is better trained than anyone on the committee and knows how BSA has changed in the last 20-25 years.  He is holding the boys accountable and demanding BOR a week after SMC instead of waiting till a week before COH.  He is outspoken about the way the program has changed and many of the old committee members don't like it.  He puts the boys first and will hold a SMC at the local coffee shop if a scout has a piano recital and can't make it to a troop meeting.  I went behind the CC back and got committee members to sit for that scouts BOR for 2nd class and the CC was not happy about it.  I went to district when the old and new CC tried to hold a boy back from advancing because they thought he was too young and when they demanded he tie a knot during a BOR.  They have been challenged and they are not used to it nor do they like it.

This particular scout just wants his Mom there, he couldn't care less if the CC is there.  This scout knows what is going on with the troop and still chose the dates he did because his Mom would be in town.  I don't know how important this ceremony is for this particular scout.  He is at the top of his graduating class and will be attending an Ivy League school in the fall, though he worked hard for his Eagle and it took him way out of his comfort zone I don't think it will be the defining moment of his life.  I may be wrong, but it doesn't matter.  He earned the rank and he deserves to be recognized for it however he wishes. I have a huge problem with adults thinking that what they have going on is more important than what the scouts have going on.  They assume that these boys go to school form 7-2:30 and come home and play video games the rest of the day.  Atleast with the boys in our troop, that simply is not the case, they have commitments too and that needs to be considered.  I understand that there has to be some kind of rules about some things.  We require atleast 2 week notice before the committee will review an Eagle Project for example and we send a copy of the proposal to the committee to go over prior to the meeting.  Yep, everyone has lives, but some people have to take a good long look and honestly examine why they are volunteering.

Thank you for the suggestions!

This summer is going to be busy for us, that is for sure.  We had a very active group of boys who are working on Eagle right now. 

1 project just finished, 1 project due to start early this month, 2 projects approved by the committee, 1 project coming before the committee Monday and  more scouts putting finishing touches on proposals right now hoping to finish them this fall.  Most of those scouts will Eagle before they age out, one is highly doubtful because of his merit badge situation.  It will be atleast 2 to 3 years before we have another I suspect.  Most of our boys don't earn Eagle before they are 17 but we have a 15 and a 16 year old in that group.

To be clear, the troop makes the arrangements with the CO to reserve the rooms because we have an uptight pastor and will only schedule things with the SM.  The scout and his family do all the planning, decorating, feeding, setting up, writing the script etc.  Scouts are there early to help with set up and the troop provides a cake and mails requests for congratulatory letters.  The primary problem has been our current and past committee chairs.  They are so far out of touch with how things should be done that they can't be reasoned with.  For the boy who the CC didn't want to schedule a BOR for, I went behind his back and scheduled it.  When the CC found out about it he let me know that he was not pleased and that I had better be prepared for other boys taking advantage of the committee from now on.  Most of our troop leadership will re arrange their schedules for the scouts, there are a couple who enjoy their perceived "power" .  The current committee chair just started in Feb and doesn't come to the troop meetings, this Eagle Scout probably doesn't even know who he is.

I copied the new CC on the email I sent to the scout about considering changing dates and I hope he feels like a jerk when he sees the response I just got from the scout saying that his Mom works in the city (about 3 hours from here) and that those were weekends he knew his Mom would be here.  He went on to say that he really doesn't care when his COH is or who is there, as long as his Mom can make it.

I am curious how other troops schedule Eagle Courts of Honor.

In the past, the Eagle Scout and his family have come up with a date, we check to see if the church (our CO) is available and if it is the ceremony is scheduled.  Nearly all of our COH, Eagle or otherwise are held in the sanctuary of the church with a "reception" in the fellowship room downstairs.

Most of our Eagle COH are done independently and not part of a regular troop COH although the scout is given the option of what they prefer.  Our new committee chair does not like separate courts of honor for the Eagle Scouts and has strongly suggested that I encourage them to be held together.

We had an Eagle Court of Honor this past weekend.  It was also a work day for another scout's Eagle Service Project.  Both scouts knew that the other was scheduled, although the ceremony had been scheduled first.  I got a very direct email that in the future the CC does not want the troop to schedule two "such important events" on the same day.

We have another scout trying to schedule his ceremony and suggested 2 weekends that are the work day's for another Eagle Service Project and the first weekend is also OA induction weekend and the 2nd is the Elk's Club flag day ceremony that our troop has always participated in and has already committed to.  I mentioned this to the CC and he told me that we can't have the Eagle ceremony those weekends because "we all have lives outside of scouting" and he couldnt be there the 2nd weekend.

I am torn, when I first spoke with the scout I told him what else was going on those two weekends and asked if he wanted to consider other dates, I had not heard from him when I spoke with the CC.  In my mind, the Eagle Ceremony is scheduled for the convenience of the family and as long as the scout knows there are other things going on and that members of his troop may not be able to make it.  I spoke with another scouter whom I respect greatly and he agreed with the CC to the extent that the troop can't have so many events going on that they cannot support them.

I will admit that I am biased because our committee in the past has scheduled BOR etc on their schedule, giving no consideration to the scout's committments.  We had one scout sick on the day of his 2nd class BOR and the committee refused to meet with him any other time because "if you make an exception for one, they will all expect it".

What does your troop do in situations like this?

@@andysmom

 

The SM and CC are just not reacting to this much at all. I'm not sure why. We are trying to connect with them today in fact. The DE and DC have recommended the two other troops in the area that might be options and we are pursuing them at this time.  

 

It's so frustrating.  If this troop would have some vision for kids like these, especially in terms of organizational scenarios (our meetings are very haphazard as are our activities), it would be so much better for everyone involved.  

It is important for us to remember however that troop meetings are run by the scouts, and scouts aren't always as organized about how they do things as adults would be.  The scouts are learning, and that is what makes the scouting program so much different than other youth organizations.  I don't know how old your son is, but it will be good for him too.  We have been in the troop for 3 years now and in the beginning of every year the meetings are chaotic messes, but they get better and the boys, mine included, see what works and what doesn't.  He trusts his fellow scouts and they accept him for who he is.  It will be difficult at first, but your son will benefit in the long run.

We, as parents of non nt kids are acutely aware of the needs of our kids but in all reality most people are not.  My own parents don't always agree with how I parent my son.  They don't understand that he won't respond the way other kids do when "typical" discipline methods are used.  Unfortunately most scout leaders don't know what "our" kids need and to be honest, each of "our" kids have different needs.  Most leaders do the best they can and really want to help ALL scouts succeed.

I am glad you are getting some recommendations of other troops.  You might want to visit those as they may be more open to dealing with scouts who have different needs.  Be careful with looking at troops that are too organized though, that is usually an indicator of a troop that isn't run by the boys. 

Please keep in mind that not all volunteers have the training, temperament, or desire to be part of the "therapy" for kids with disabilities.  That doesn't make them bad people.

No, it doesn't make them bad people, but going out of their way to pass on their presumably negative opinions to another troop about this young man and his family do not make them nice people.

My son has Aspergers and ADHD.  We had past issues with an ASM in the troop that my son wanted to cross into.  We made an appointment with the SM and CC of the troop to sit down and discuss our concerns.  We told them that we didn't want our son to have to deal directly with this particular ASM for any reason and explained to them specifically why.  My husband became an ASM (which I understand you have been trying to do) and has accompanied my son on every outing so he could intervene when a problem arose.  The ASM that we had the problem with apparently had problems with others as well because he stepped down from a leadership position and has not been allowed back.  We spoke with all the direct contact leaders about my son's issues and they have been excellent with my son.  We have had to step in a couple times, but it is becoming less and less frequent  and the experience has been amazing for my son.  My husband is now SM and advocates for scouts with special needs.  We encourage reluctant parents to give scouts a try and have welcomed scouts that have been basically driven off by the other troop in town.  

I am very curious about what the SM and CC have said about the situation.  Another thing you may want to consider is asking the DE or DC if there is a troop in your area that they could recommend who might have leaders that are better trained or at the very least open about being trained.

The several camps I have attended over the years all state that the T-FC classes they teach are NOT to count as advancement for rank.  It is just an opportunity for the new guys to get a feel for the kinds of activities they will need to know to operate fully in the patrol.  

 

 

Our crossovers participate in the pioneer program at summer camp specifically designed for new scouts.  It is a half day program so they can choose merit badges for the afternoon.  The boys get a sheet of what they do each day during the program.  For years the ASM just signed the books assuming that the skills were taught and tested.   We learned they are not.  The skills are touched on but not mastered by any stretch of the imagination.  ASM have been told not to sign of t-1 requirements that the boys "learn" at summer camp unless they can demonstrate them.

This is very interesting.

We have an opening flag ceremony and announcements and our patrols go off into their patrol meetings.  We are lucky that we have a 1 large room that we use for opening, closings and games if they need to be inside, and 4 other smaller rooms.  Each patrol gets their own room for the evening.  The SM stays in the big room for SM conferences, and other SM stuff.  Our ASMs are either wandering through the patrol meetings or in the big room to sign book for advancement and other ASM stuff.  Our SPL and ASPLs either wander through the patrol meetings or are in the large room working with adults to get activities planned that need adult help.  All adults are in the big room if parents have questions, need to make a payment for something they can see the treasurer, when advancement things are done they see me and I put them in my computer etc.

In the patrol meetings the scouts do things like, plan the game, trainings, or activities (camp outs/outings)  their patrol is responsible for.  They also work on and teach scout skills for advancement.  2 times a month the patrol meetings are cut in half and the 2nd have of the time is spent in troop wide training given by one of the patrols.  This has included training in things like first aid, maintenance of camp equipment, leave no trace, etc.

After the patrol meetings/training everyone meets in the large room for a game, SM minute and closing.

OUR PLC meets once a month to decide who is going to do what trainings and when, who is going to plan the games, plan other activities etc.  Our SPL is elected in the spring for the following year and chooses his ASPLs and scribe before summer camp.  During the week of summer camp they sit down with the school calendar and roughly schedule the following year (not specifics, just what weekend camporees are scheduled for what weekend they want to do events, etc).  Our SPL for next year has decided that he wants to use the Troop Program guide for next year's planning, so we will see how that goes, they havent used it in the recent past.

Merit badge work is done the hour before troop meetings.  We do have crossovers in their own patrol until summer camp so they can focus on getting to 2nd class before their first year at camp.

I have never been to other troop's meetings, this is just how ours have been done atleast as long as I have been involved.

I find it cyclic.   For 8 or 10 years we will have all the help we need, then the next 10 or so we are stretching those who do volunteer too thin.  Sadly, right now, our troop is in the lean years and it is like pulling teeth to get anyone to do anything.  They can't even bother putting anything on their calendars 3 months out because "i don't know what we will be doing that far out".  I was taught that you put something on your calendar and you turn down everything else, unless it is something really important.  People seem to be waiting for better offers, and teaching their kids that it is ok.  We have threatened to cancel summer camp if we don't have more adults sign up just to insure we have 2 adults at all times.  We have had to cancel a camp out because we couldnt get one adult to sign up in addition to the SM.  I have gone on campouts and to summer camp to be sure we have 2 adults.  We have parents sign up then tell us that they can't make it the Monday before.  It is amazingly frustrating.  We will be loosing an ASM after this year because of his work situation and our other 2 ASM's can't/won'tdon't come to meetings and will only step up to 1 campout a year.  We only have 2 committee members with boys active in the troop, most of the others are only staying on out of obligation that they don't want to leave us with no one.  It's pretty sad, really.

in about 3 years we will have a den cross over, hopefully, full of active parents.  Hopefully we can stick it out till then.

@@andysmom, over 100 years at the same CO?!?!?!? Wow!

Yep, chartered continuously with the same CO since 1913.

Interesting. We have tried to donate $500 every year to our CO (a church). We have been chartered there for over 100 years. Ever since I have been associated with the troop or pack we have had an outstanding relationship with them. The congregation always seemed to enjoy talking to the scouts and hearing what was going on with them. We even used to have a "column" in the monthly church newsletter. We held COH in the sanctuary and had pretty much free access to any room we needed (for Eagle project reviews, BOR, etc). We supported their food pantry with scouting for food and helped on clean up days when we were able. Last year a new Pastor took over and things have gone downhill. We have been restricted to only certain rooms in the church basement and told that we can't touch anything in the rooms because the Sunday School teachers like things a certain way. We cannot use the sanctuary for any reason between the months of November and May. We have been restricted to using a side half door when loading gear for camp outs. They are basically making it very difficult to run our program and we have to cut out some activities that the boys really enjoy. During a "sit down" a couple weeks ago the troop was told that it will cook and serve consecration breakfast and will perform 2 field days to clean up the outside of the building. We are not the only organization that uses the church but we seem to be getting the brunt of the new Pastor's micromanaging. Funny, her 2 sons are Eagle Scouts........

Our troop debit card has a $500 limit for purchases and no cash access ability.

$500 is enough for camp fees and enough for a deposit for bigger things until a check can be written.

 

 

Is it me or is there a growing Eagle-Before-High-School movement by scout families, i.e., push hard to earn Eagle before 9th grade, otherwise drop out. Summer camp Trail-to-Eagle programs are overfilled with rising 8th graders. Coincidence?

It is because the demands of High School are increasing exponentially.

In our district 9th graders have the option of taking classes for college credit, taught in High School by a college professor, in 10th and 11th grade they can spend 1/2 their day at a local university.

We have kids graduate from high school and receive an associates degree the same day.

We have a kid who we haven't seen since fall, the told us he plays baseball and practices on Monday nights.  His parents think he is the next Derek Jeter, whatever.

We have several scouts who are on the robotics team, build and competition season lasts a couple month, we don't see them, we know ahead of time.

Captain of the swim team, check.  Co captain of the soccer team, yep.  We don't see them during their "season"

Star of the school play, things get tight for them only at the end of rehearsals and during the shows.

Science Olympiad, Odyssey of the Mind, Debate Team, Confirmation classes, I could go on and on

Often times these things take priority over scouts for the families and I'll admit we have well rounded scouts.

Are we going to tell them they can't come back?  I'm not, as long as they are living the scout oath and law and let us know what is going on.

It is not my decision what other people do. 

I grew up choosing an activity and I stayed with that activity until the year was done, no deciding I didn't like it half way through and move onto something else.  I made a commitment, I kept it. Of course way back then there weren't so many options, it's one of the reasons the numbers of scouts are falling.  We have so much competition and if we tell someone that they need to choose between scouts and the lacross team, we could loose that scout.

As for my kid, he does scouts and not much else.  Some people criticize us for not involving him in more, whatever.  This is works for my family so I won't criticize what works for others.  Do I think it is going to be a problem for people down the road when they realize they can't do everything, oh yes, bit I can't change them any more than they can change me.

I played at recess in third grade.

 

Do we really need to teaching time management and giving out Covey planners to third graders?

 

There's plenty of time to learn that stuff. Heck, I learned time management by making it home for dinner or going to bed hungry. I didn't need to have my iPhone synced to our family calendar to know when to be home.

Sadly, giving out "agendas" in elementary school is happening whether we think it is necessary or not. They are taking away recess in many elementary schools, parents in our district have fought tooth and nail to keep it.

By middle school sports teams practice 7 days a week, yep, 7 days.  Miss practice don't play, robotics teams members are not seen at troop meetings during "build and competition" times.  My son is in 8th grade and I can't help him with math anymore, had to pass that off to the "engineer husband"  We loose kids at troop meetings because they have to much homework...... one of my many personal issues