andysmom

We have been trying to recruit new committee members for the entire time I have been on the committee, in fact, just prior to the BOR I spoke with this particular scout's father about joining the committee and he asked me to send him information about what is involved...

My son is 13, he is a first class scout who just had his SMC for Star. When he ages out our intention is to be sure whatever positions we hold in the troop are covered and move on to district or council levels for him and I would like to volunteer at the council office.

 

 

 

8.0.1.5. - After the Review

 

If a board does not approve, the candidate must be so informed and told what he can do to improve. Most Scouts accept responsibility for their behavior or for not completing requirements properly.

 

In any case, a follow-up letter must be promptly sent to a Scout who is turned down. It must include actions advised that may lead to advancement, and also an explanation of appeal procedures.

 

The council must keep a copy of the letter.

 

I pointed this out to him during the exchange while the scout was out of the room and he asked me if I got that information from my "training" or if that was official policy because as he recalled they were told never to put anything in writing.

After both BOR were over and I had access to my bag I pulled out my personal copy of the 2013 Guide To Advancement and pointed that out to him and he argued with me that we did not fail the scout, we deferred him. Did not fail, did not need a letter.

I appreciate everyone's comments. We will be visiting other troops. It's sad but we have been involved with the pack from the CO since Andy was a tiger. My husband was his assistant den leader and pack committee chair. I was on the committee as well and served as advancement in that role. We crossed into the troop knowing that the current SM was planning to retire and my husband, then an ASM hoped to take over. He was the only one interested. He LOVES being a SM. Right now in our troop we have trouble getting volunteers. My husband has camped every single month with the troop since Andy crossed over 3 years ago, many times with me as the 2nd adult because no one else would step up. He takes the week off for summer camp and for the last 2 years I have had a bag packed to spend the first half of the week because no one would commit. The thought of leaving is causing him alot of guilt not knowing what will happen to the scouts and who will take over. It has been difficult. Our committee does not know that our long time COR resigned in December and was replaced in Jan. or that the old CC plans to step down at the end of next month and has recommended the new CC take over. (Only 3 of us, myself, my husband and our treasurer showed up for the Dec committee meeting, so we couldnt have one and our Jan committee meeting was cancelled because of a snowstorm) We have no communication. I emailed the old CC to see if he would be at the meeting last night because I have an eagle application for him to sign and he never responded to my email.

I have contacted the district advancement chair and the SM (my husband) has contacted the DE and the UC. I have a call with the DC in less than an hour and I have been informed that the "new CC" has contacted him. It will be interesting to see how this goes

The opinion of the new and old CC seems to be that our troop produces excellent scouts and this is the way we do it. If you don't like it, leave. He said he has never been questioned or sued (where ever that came from) about how BOR have been conducted in the troop

Whoa... I misread the original post. If you were part of this BOR and have inside information the scout was not privy to, there are so many things thus described that are wrong, I would approach the CC and let them reconvene a valid BOR group that knows what they are doing. Sounds like "these two leaders" are adding to requirements that have already been fulfilled, a major no-no in scouting. I hope that the CC is not one of "these two leaders" in that you are really screwed if that is the case.

 

By the way, these separate hoops the BOR is requiring are bogus and outside the scope of the Scout Law. One does not show leadership by setting up tents and I don't believe there is anything in the requirement that says a boy has to show leadership in anything required for Star.

 

In the future I would refuse to sit on any BOR for this troop until they were properly trained and held accountable for their actions.

 

Boy joins at 11, by 12 his could be FC, by 12 yr 4 mo he could be Star. What gives "these two leaders" justification that 13 is too young for Star and they have taken it upon themselves to deal with something that BSA has strictly forbidden?

 

I would get my UC involved with this issue immediately.

 

Stosh

Sadly, one of these two leaders is our current committee chair and the other is his replacement (appointed by the current CC)

The first thing that happened in this BOR was the "New" CC tossing a rope to the scout and asking him to tie a knot, which sadly he struggled with. I told him to stop and after the scout left I informed the "new CC" that this was against policy and he wont do it again. He asked how are we supposed to know if a scout knows his skills and I told him that is the job for the asst scoutmasters and scoutmaster not us. To his credit he apologized and was receptive when I told him that the 2nd scout we were reviewing had severe anxiety and has trouble camping.

I am the "advancement person" in the troop, but only have been since September. The problem with the committee training is that once you do it you are done. You don't redo it when policy changes. The "old CC" did his training 19 years ago when he joined the committee. He has kept up with the changes to know enough not to retest, but he still has ideas in his head about other things. This is the same CC that I have posted about before requiring scouts to re write life purpose statements if he felt they were weak and didn't show the scout's "character" to his satisfaction.

We have a small struggleing committee. Old CC, new CC (who has been to 7 committee meetings in 7 years), 1 dad who's son Eagled 2 years ago and is now in college, he acts as one of our Eagle mentors, another Dad who's son Eagled last summer and turned 18 in Jan. The COR who has been involved in the troop for a year and a half, an Eagle Scout who never had scouts in the troop but who has been extreamly active until about 2 mos ago (we heard a rumor that he also is having trouble with the pastor of the church), the former SM (both son's Eagled and are now in college) who is now the treasurer and me. Most of them wont be around much longer and I am afraid of what is going to happen to the troop.

For the matter at hand I have emailed the district advancement chair, SM has emailed the UC and the DE. Our DC is also aware of teh situation as he is a former member of our committee and a close friend

I am not claiming to know everything, that's why I come here and read message boards and subscribe to newsletters and take training and read the policy guides. I think what happened to this scout was wrong. He is a good scout. I am at 99.9% of meetings, I have spent time at camp because we dont have enough other leaders to step up so I have been the 2nd adult. I know these boys. He should have advanced.

I feel bullied because I am a woman and havent been in the program as long as they have. They kept saying "in my experience we do an injustice to a boy by advancing him to fast" and "remember so-and-so who made his Eagle in 2008 he was a good scout". I honestly think that if I hadnt put up a fuss they would have asked him to come back in 4 months rather than 2 weeks.

On a more personal note, my son completed his SMC for star last night and I feel like I have no idea what the committee (ok these 2 leaders) are looking for.

Andysmom - I'm confused. You said you were one of the 4 on the board' date=' but you don't know the reason the Scout was asked to come back?[/quote']

 

That is exactly my point.

The committee chair stated that he didn't feel the scout was ready for star.

He wanted to see some leadership from him.

He wanted to slow him down.

He said he wanted to use the fact that the date in his handbook for when he started his POR was 8/14 (he needs 4 mos) as an "out"

 

The scout wasnt in the room for any of this.

 

I threatened to walk out.

 

The scout was asked what his best scout skill was. He said camping. He was asked to be more specific, what was he really good at. He said setting up a tent. He was told that "a journey of 1000 miles starts with one step, he has gone 999 miles of that journey and they the committee wants to see that he can provide leadership" they asked him to come back in 2 weeks and set up a tent, he could "even use a troop tent", but set the tent up for us so we can see that that he can lead someone to doing it.

 

His Dad emailed the SM as said that the scout was pretty upset but that he wants to ace the next board and he is going to have his son email the sm after school so the sm could tell him exactly what he needs to work on. Telling him to set up a tent sounds silly, especially when he has to demonstrate leadership doing it. The 2 committee members couldnt tell specifically what they look for in a star scout saying that it varies by the boy.

I thought a BOR was to talk with the scout to indirectly evaluate that he has completed the rank requirements (no retesting), to see how the troop is running from the scout's perspective so the committee can evaluate how well the troop is running it's program and give feedback to the scoutmaster, to encourage the boy to continue his journey in scouting, to be sure he is living his life according to the scout oath and law, and to provide interactions with adults.

I think the vague thing is the question about if he is getting our of the program what he should be. How do we qualify that and how do we tell a scout what we expect?

I am not saying we should "rubber stamp" everyone but what is the standard?

The SM is furious and threatened to quit, actually it is all I can do to keep him from leaving right now.

The reason given was that they would "like the boy to show more leadership" the reason he gave to the committee was he had a "gut feeling" the boy wasn't ready and if he "showed up in 6 mos for a Life BOR he would be eaten alive"

There were 4 of us on the board. The CC who is stepping down next month after 19 years, his unilateral appointee for his replacement who was SM form 2000-2004 and has been on the committee since (she shows up for Eagle BOR and some Life, he has been to exactly 7 committee meetings in the last 7 years, I counted), our brand new, as of this month, COR who has been involved in scouting for about a year and a half, and myself who has been on the committee for 4 years and have been pretty well trained (my husband is the district training chair and I have attended our council's all day training pow wow for the last 3 years)

He was asked to come back in 2 weeks to show some sort of "leadership" while doing a scout skill. He is choosing to set up a tent.

I guess to show that he can teach something to someone.

We had a BOR for a scout to earn his Star rank who was asked to reappear before the board in 2 weeks. I am interested in a couple of things, one of which is if the committee should provide, in writing, the reason why the scout is asked to return. We read the policy in the 2013 Guide To Advancement and there was a difference of opinion in the interpretation. And secondly, and more importantly, for what specific reasons can (or should) a scout should be delayed/deferred/denied rank advancement after a BOR.

The scout had all requirements signed off in his book, held his position as the troop librarian for 4 months and 1 week and completed a specific task asked of him by the SM in his position and has more than the required number of merit badges, both Eagle required and not. The scout is 13 years old.

We gave our outgoing leaders a framed picture of the den (or pack, depending on position) with an engraved plaque thanking them for their service.

A flaw in the process is that proposal writing is not a skill we teach out Scouts. But then we expect them to put together a detailed, written plan for their Eagle project. Prior to the 2011 policy changes 50 page proposals were not uncommon in our council. That was insane. A dad in our troop is a Six-Sigma instructor and would shake his head and laugh at the complexity of EP proposals. The 2011 changes to the process fixed a lot of that and I was a very early supporter of the new process. (Unfortunately they went too far in other areas, but that's a different thread.)

 

The key to an Eagle proposal is for the Scout to convince those approving it that he knows what he's doing and has a reasonable chance of success.

 

The answer to your question is coaching. Don't set up the process with the Scout where all you are doing is grading his paper. Make it one where you are working together for the Scout to learn a very important life skill. If that takes more than one or two sessions working together, so be it. But don't let it come to a point where the proposal is rejected. Instead, you just continue working through the process. Part of this is instilling in the Scout a sense of pride in what he is doing. As in everything, we need to be showing our Scouts what excellence looks like.

I agree.

With all due respect, one of the biggest parts about scouting is that we TEACH scouts many skills. As leaders, isn't our job to guide the scouts? I believe our committee is fairly rigorous when it comes to approving Eagle Scout projects. We want to make sure the scout has thought through the project and give his some things to think about. With the older Eagle Project Proposal I don't think I saw 1 scout get the proposal signed the first time through the committee (not saying that I agreed that they shouldnt have been signed, but our CC made that decision), the changed proposal is better. We want the scout to understand what is allowed in the "Guide to Safe Scouting" and he has thought about safety issues. We might suggest that the scout do some research about planting flowers in November or if the kind of paint he intends to use will hold up to winter weather. We remind him that he needs to call gas and power suppliers to be sure that it is safe to dig in an area. We don't manufacture problems make a scout do more work, we use our collective experience to help the scout succeed. We want him to think. If they don't take our suggestions, they learn, but they also learn by listening to others, and that is an important skill to learn. They also learn that just because they show up with a proposal that is filled out they dont get an automatic signature. We do point out spelling and grammar errors. We want the scout to be proud of his work, I don't see that as taking away from his project. Just because a scout has made it to the point in his career that he is ready to do an Eagle project does not mean that he knows everything about how to plan one.

I will talk with the district advancement chair, we see him fairly regularly. I will be seeing the council advancement chair tomorrow evening as my son is working with him on a merit badge and I think I will ask him as well. I spoke with the council Eagle processor about it, he said he just checks to see if there is one and he doesn't even read it.

Many of our more recent Eagle Scouts have been extraordinarily bright and have written outstanding life statements. Most of the scouts that he has been critical of are not academically at the same level, coupled with the fact that the CC doesn't regularly interact with boys of "scout age" (his youngest son aged out atleast 5 years ago) I think he is out of touch with the capabilities of the average 16 or 17 year old.

There is some friction about our newish SM and our long term CC about the Life Statements of our Eagle candidates. The last 3 years or so we have seen a dozen or so scouts earn their Eagle ranks with atleast 4 more coming up and 2 applications sitting on my desk ready to be delivered to council this afternoon.

Our SM is in his 2nd year, very passionate about the program. a wood badger and staffer, a district trainer. He pretty much lives and breathes scouting. Our CC is going into his 19th year, has a bit of an ego, demands to sit on every life and Eagle BOR, until recently was the only person who was "allowed" to check Eagle references, knows the program but is a bit old school in his thing. His job requires that he travel quite alot which has lowed down some advancement since, as I said, he is the final check on everything and doesn't always respond to email.

The new SM is very literal when looking at requirements and believes the interpretation of the statement of ambitions and life statement on the Eagle Scout application should be left up to the scout. He feels the important thing is not what the scout writes but how he acts and lives. Our troop has about 29 boys. The SM is available for an hour before every meeting for help with advancement or SMC, as well as to have a place for boys working on merit badges, etc to meet.. The CC doesn't know most of the younger scouts by name, he isn't at may meetings and doesn't make himself available for BOR for lower ranks. He has been finding the Life Statements of our Eagle candidates "weak" and seems to want to impose some sort of standards. He expects the boys to show their "character" in the life statement. He has wanted to have some scouts re write them, something that the new SM is strongly opposed to.

I can't find anything regarding what should be included in the l9ife statement in the guide to advancement or on any national website.

What do you look for in a life statement?

Andysmom,

 

Was this your son's first summer camp experience? I'm impressed by the combination of merit badges he took and successfully completed. He came to camp prepared and ready to go. I hope he also had some fun as well. His taking personal responsibility is impressive as well. Maybe this was a second or third year, but sounds like he's getting some great support and encouragement from you. He's got a great Scouting future ahead.

No doubt over the thirty odd years I've been a SM attending summer camps, programs have changed to meet demand. Out of nowhere this year, my home camp seemed to be offering every merit badge in existence. How could they do that? You know how............

 

sst3rd

Thank you for your kind words. It was my son's 3rd year at camp. My husband is is scoutmaster and I have been on the pack and troop committees since he was a tiger. We believe strongly in the scouting program and want our son to get out of it what he should. We are also aware that because we are so active in the troop there will be some that think my son "skates" by so we do everything we can to be sure he can prove that he doesnt. He is always extra prepared, poor kid. LOL We are at the troop meeting place an hour before the troop meeting starts every week so scoutmaster conferences can be done or our scouts can meet with merit badge counselors or get extra work on rank requirements so he does most of his "scouting" work then. My husband is at every campout and has to carry my son's epipen at summer camp so he is always nearby in case of a problem (Andy has special needs) but he stays back so Andy can become more independent.

I am stunned by some parents attitudes that I hear described here. If yous son still wets the bed for whatever reason, why wouldnt you make sure he was prepared to deal with it himself. Since when is it the troops responsibility to take depends on a campout and tell a scout he has to wear them. What life skills is that teaching the scout?? I am shocked by it, just as i am shocked by the parent who sent her son camping with us for the first time to summer camp and failed to mention that his 2 previous experiences with camp were failures.

As far as merit badges go, I am saddened by the number of merit badge fairs and "colleges" there are. In my mind it cheapens the process. It is what it is and I can't change it. What I can do is make sure the scouts that I counsle get out of it what I feel they should. Sure there are badges that are easier to get at camp, there always will be. It is our responsibility as leaders to these scouts to do the best job we can at what we have control over. Our camp does not offer the citizenship merit badges, family life, physical fitness, personal management and the like. They do offer cooking, but not one of our scouts completed the badge because they did not finish the prerequsites. Traditional shooting sports, waterfront and handicraft (basketry, leatherworking, wood carving) are most of the merit badges offered. If a citizenship merit badge were offered our scouts would be STRONGLY discouraged from taking them.

I sew pockets closed. If they want useable pockets they are more than welcome to sew themselves. I am a huge fan of elmers school glue stick. Glue the patch where it is supposed to be, let is sit for 30 minutes or so, and sew on using thread in the bobbin that matches the shirt and medium weight nylon thread on the top. Sashes are done the same way, badge is glued on, then stitch 2 rows all the way across all 3 patches in the row. I will admit that when hubby held multiple positions (committee chair, unit commissioner and whatever else) I used velcro so we wouldnt need quite so many shirts.

Our troop got home Saturday. No problems with homesickness except for the one scout. Our 3 crossovers had a great time, although one might have trouble explaining to his parents that all of his spending money went on candy. Had the usual amount of spider shooing and chipmunk chasing from tents (canvas tents on platforms), a mouse managed to find his way into the chuck box. Power went out a couple of times, no big deal except that the dining hall generators werent working and camp was not prepared for that. Oh yeah, huge storm came through on family night and cancelled all activities.

My boy earned 5 merit badges, fire safety, safety, environmental science, emergency prep, and search and rescue. He was the only scout in his time period for safety so they did fire safety as well. He was well prepared as he had read all the merit badge books and completed all pre reqs. He made notes and answered all the questions in the workbooks so he was prepared for discussions.

Regarding the scouts who have bedwetting problems. My son does as well, however, when he packs for camp he takes his "night time underwear" and deals with the issue on his own. He dresses in his tent while his tentmate is at the latrine or brushing his teeth. He puts them in a plastic shopping bag and discretely disposes them himself.

I have anxiety issues myself and was able to connect with this scout when I told him about my most recent anxiety attack. He seemed to appreciate that I could somewhat relate to what he was experiencing. He told me he doesnt have the anxiety with school. I do know that Mom was his den leader in cub scouts and has purposely not been involved in troop activities because she wants him to more self sufficient. I dont know the Mom well, as he is new in the troop, but I would like to talk with her more to try to figure out her position and see how open she is. I agree that having Mom spend the nights at camp is not ideal but atleast the scout will get to experience what camp has to offer during the day. For what it's worth, my own son has anxiety issues as well, we choose to medicate him because I could see how it was negatively affecting his life.

Thanks all. I haven't heard how he did last night. I think everyone might be right and this is just something that cannot be handled by the troop leadership. I suspect this might be why he left the other troop he was in. We are lucky enough to have a scout camp very nearby and the troop camps there often. Maybe if he starts by coming just for the day, or even a few hours at a time we can get him over this. Even if he is able to call home every couple hours so he knows that everything is ok. Summer camp has no cell service. Personally I think this is a problem that needs serious attention from his parents and I know there is only so much we can do. Everyone deals with the occasional homesick scout but this was beyond anything I had ever seen. It is sad for me that he is suffering so much and I would hate for him to miss out on the benefits of scouting because of it.

Yes, he is a 3rd year scout, going into 8th grade, probably 13. He has friends in our troop which is one of the reasons he left the other one. His tent mate is a friend who encouraged him to give our troop a try instead of quitting scouts. I think he has severe anxiety issues and needs to learn to manage them but I am worried about him.

Our troop is at summer camp this week. Yesterday one of the scouts was suffering from a severe bout of homesickness. He was wailing and crying for his mother, it went on for hours. His mom's orders to the troop leaders were to tell him to "suck it up". This was this scout's 3rd attempt at camp and both times previously he needed to go home early. He transferred into our troop from another earlier this year and had not been camping with our troop. Has anyone dealt with anything like this before? What did you do? Neither the youth leadership nor the adult leadership could calm him. His hyperventilating was so bad that he was passing out. It was eventually decided that this scout was causing such a disruption that we had to call and tell his parents that someone had to come stay with him or they could take him home and bring him back in the morning for program. His mom came to get him last night and brought him back this morning. She plans to go up to camp every night to stay with him, but he started crying again when she left today and a leader had to stay with him all morning. Before he left last night he was encouraged to come on more weekend campouts and he agreed, but does anyone have any other suggestions?

Food allergies are not something to mess with. Before we knew the extent of his allergies my husband shared a cashew with our son. Within 10 minutes he had hives and within 30 minutes we were in the emergency room because he couldn't breath. Many if not most allergins can be tested for through skin tests and then fine tuned with blood tests. When used in conjunction and with patient history ,it is my understanding that they are quite accurate? Some people outgrow food allergies, some don't. My son for example grew out of his wheat allergy, but according to the experience his allergist has, he will probably not outgrow his tree nut allergy. Ingredients must be checked on EVERYTHING and you have to know what you are looking for. As one poster said, one brand of bread might be fine but the one sitting next to it is not. I have even found examples where the normal size cookie (in this case) was fine but the mini version of the same cookie was not.

My son has allergies to tree nuts, egg, and all dairy products. When my son started scouts my husband took on a leadership position, that way he was "in the know" about what was going on and would be in a position to keep our son safe. When he crossed into the troop we decided that we weren't going to put the responsibility of our son's health in the hands of other scouts. My son has his own chuck box, right down to cooking gear, stove and dish washing bins. I have seen how some of those boys "clean" camp gear and theere is just too much risk of cross contamination for me. We provide all my son's food and he prepares his own meals. We find out what the patrol has on their menu and we adapt his meals as close to theirs as we can. Breakfast is the worst as eggs are a staple on our campouts, but we make it work. When he had to cook for his patrol for a requirement he made chili, something he could have. My husband will cook for him occasionally but my son has gotten pretty good at meal planning can can cook better than most of the boys in the troop. My son also carries epi pens, always. He knows the signs of an allergic reaction and knows to point them out to someone. He has been trained with his epi pen but has never had to use it. Until I am comfortable that he can take care of emergencies himself or there is another adult who understands the seriousness of the situation, myself or my husband will be on all his outings. He is 12

As far as I know every troop that attends summer camp here provides a binder with all the medical forms included. I LOVE the idea of scouts keeping track of their own medical forms. Do you put them all in a single binder when you collect them. I am managing the medical forms for our troop of about 40 scouts. It is a nightmare getting ready for camp. I screen the forms and we get them pre screened before camp bu the camp director and still have issues. Doctors not dating the forms, kids bringing expired medication, putting "just in case" medication on the form and not bringing it to camp. I email the parents at the beginning of the scout year with the status of their scout's medical form and then again the month they expire. I have people argue with me that the Dr does not have to sign the form if the parent did, the scout doesn't have to sign the form because he is under 18 so it isn't legally binding anyways, even one ASM tell me that he had a tetanus vaccination sometime in the 90's and that was the best I was going to get.

Thanks. Too often scout parents want their scouts to advance so fast . Our troop frowns strongly on the "do everything as fast as you can to get your rank faster than the next guy" method. Our numbers are declining. This year we had 2 crossovers from the 3 cub scout packs in town including the pack from our own CO. When asked why they chose the other troop in town I was told that the other troop "makes it so easy to get merit badges". All Eagle required badges are down with in house counselors, as a group, during troop meetings. Yes, they produce Eagle Scouts, but we produce Eagle Scouts who are NYLT staff members, almost exclusively staff the cub summer camp, are captains of the school soccer team and robotics club, Presidents of the Honor Society and I could go on and on.