Hawkrod

I will add my rambling thoughts to this. Our Council is charging $3300. I do know that transportation is a big chunk (which is why I always believed Jambo should move around the country every time, give everybody a chance to afford it) but the tours are a big chunk too. I know our council goes to Philly and DC and hotels and meals are a big, BIG expense. I have applied to be in the contingent and will know soon if I will be going but both of my sons will be applying and if chosen will be raising their own money to go just as my oldest did last time. He saved for nearly a year and mom did make up the rest but it was a growth experience that I consider part of the reason we do it. The experience has more value to the boy who worked to get there than the boy going because mom and dad footed the bill and told him he was going. Jambo is a life experience and I am afraid that too many boys do end up seeing it as a long summer camp because they don't have the personal investment in it. I do believe that being choosen to go and participate should be an honor earned and recognized not an experience bought casually by those that can afford it like a trip to an amusement park. I think the boys that go have a responsibility to try and make the most of it, take in the trip, the heritage, the experience and bring it back to those that can't go. There was one boy last time who I spoke with who had spent hours complaining about how bad everything was, the food, the rain, the lines etc... I spent quite a bit of time with him talking about the things he got to do and see. By the time we were done talking he was really starting to understand how great it really was but he was so stuck in the "I have to go because mom said so" mentality that he was missing out on some pretty great stuff. Yeah, some lines were long, really, really, long but the whole time they were in line they were playing pocket games, singing songs and comparing notes with boys who lived a 1000 miles away. Those experiences may have even been actually better than what was at the end of the line if you look at it with the right perspective! I do hope I get to be on the contingent because I know that I can help the boys make the most of the experience and be part of something special but even if I don't, I will be promoting it and preparing the boys going to take in all that they will see and experience while they are getting ready and while they are gone. For me the days at the Jambo are only part of the experience and more than half of the experience is the preperation at home before you ever leave. JMO, fire away....

I appreciate the thought but having a large number of participants is critical to help fold the flag. Folding a flag this large requires a lot of people just to hold it. I have one this size that I use for events and it takes an absolute minimum of 20 people to fold it and that is doing it the hard way. I prefer to have 3 dozen or more to help me to do it well which is why Camporee is an opportunity I would hate to miss. The area is not a concern nor is sparks or embers as we are in the desert and are hoping we can do it in the middle of a large horse arena so have enough barren land around the area that it will not be a concern. TA

Sorry I did not respond sooner but just got back from a backpacking trip. I posted before I left and I thought I was clear when I wrote that I was hoping to be rid of one of the large flags and make it special for the boys helping because many are new and there will be a lot of help on hand making a large flag retirement possible. Thanks again

Maybe I need to be a bit clearer, we are not in need of a ceremony for flag retirement, we are in need of a ceremony for a giant flag retirement. Plenty of good ideas and suggestions here but we are not new to doing retirements and usually do several hundred per year (we currently have a backlog of over 800 flags waiting for retirement) but the retirement ceremonies we have are not designed around the work of retiring a monster (we have more 20 X 38's and also have some 30 X 50's waiting for retirement as well). The idea is to take advantage of the fact that we will have a lot of help and we really need to be rid of some of these flags and also make it special for a lot of boys that are new to Scouting and this is the first event for many of them. I really do like that short one just above the AL ceremony in that link and printed both of them out for my son to look over. My hope is that we can retire a monster and get it off our books while making it a solemn and memorable experience for the boys. My sons goals are similar but he does not have to move all the flags around in the shed when the pack needs something from the back!

Excellent, keep them coming! We are worried about how much time would be involved in cutting a flag this size so if we do cut the flag it will be done in advance but then it can't be displayed so that is a tough one. I am not a fan of cutting flags to retire them as it just does not seem right to me, but thats me and it is not my call. I know a lot of people do it but we really want to try and avoid that so we can display it as that is how we learned it, always display the flag one last time out of respect and if it is cut we can't. TA

My son will be coordinating a flag retirement at Camporee and he is looking for ideas and suggestions. Now, to put the spin on it, we are looking at possibly retiring a 20 X 38 foot flag and so traditional ceremonies are not going to easily adapt. My son wants to both, make this a memorable event as our District has a lot of new Scouts, and also take advantage of the large group that would be present to deal with an obviously difficult retirement that we have been putting off for obvious reasons! So far in the running are cutting the flag into components and folding them to lay in the fire or starting with a triangle fold and unfolding, displaying and then folding into a coffin shaped rectangle to place in the fire. Any other suggestions or ideas? This is a very big cotton flag and some of the concerns are flare up of the fire as we place the flag and the sheer weight of it for the boys (I was even thinking of possibly making a litter to carry it on). TIA

There are activity pins that can be earned in a long day or weekend. You did not tell us which ones but they do not all require the same effort. Some more info may help us give perspective.(This message has been edited by Hawkrod)

I have both sides of this coin in my area of responsibility and can offer that we believe it is the Troop responsibility to provide the bridging program. In our area each Troop has their own way of doing things, some do not do anything but shake hands and welcome boys, others build pioneered bridges and anything in between. I can say that the bridging ceremony can reflect a Troops "program". The more involved the ceremony, usually the more involved the program. I doubt that right now, our unit can keep up with the guys building a pioneered bridge! Our Troop uses a bridge that I built that we also use for Cub crossover every June. We have a ceremony and bring the kids over to the Troop. We usually have the OA do an AOL ceremony and then soon after bridge the boys. This year we had a ceremony that flows from the OA ceremony theme that worked very well and we will probably continue using until something better comes along. We really tried to do it differently this year and have the boys earn AOL sooner and bridge seperately but it just didn't work out and we were right back to what we have been doing. I really do believe it is a Troop program to bring boys in but it is just an opinion so take it for it fair market value.

I see two sides to this and do agree that a DE should be able to earn volunteer awards up to a point. A DE should not get the DAM unless they are the best there ever was! LOL They are pro's and as such should be doing an incredible job and so the standards to earn a DAM would have to be exceeded a hundredfold or more. The SB has rules and we should abide by them. But pretty much I think that most of the rest of the knots are open season. If you have a DE who is also a volunteer Tiger leader then I think they do deserve to earn that knot. If they are a Tiger leader because there is not another one and and as a DE they have to do it for some job related reason they should not get it (I can't imagine what the reason might be but just sayin'). I would say that I would be afraid that the committee that reviews or selects nominations may not be well versed in how "it should be" and may choose a DE based on the same standards used for a volunteer and I do not think that would be right thus I believe that a restriction on those types of awards is appropriate but for volunteer tenure related awards like TL, DL, SM etc... the standards are pretty much solid but I also think that the DE would need to exceed the requiremnts in some areas. For example, a DE should have to both attend Round Tables and the University of Scouting because I think they should be at Round Table in a job related capacity. Just my opinion, your mileage may vary

Yup, I own the Troop trailer, oh yeah, and the Troop truck and the... I am not even sure how we could have it any other way because of insurance and such. It is my trailer and I got it just for the Scouts. It is currently waiting renovation but it will be painted red and white like a Troop flag when I am done! LOL For the last 5 or 6 years if it needed moving, I moved it with my equipment and I realized that packing and unpacking was getting old so a Troop trailer was needed but because of the way finances work it really was not possible for the Troop to have those expenses but for me to do it was easy.

Yup, sounds like a blast! My wife does not understand why I want to do it. I have a small program that I agreed to take over last year and it was a dream so I agreed to do it again this year and boy is my wife frosted! LOL She does not understand how wonderful it is to see the boys laugh and have fun at camp (she understands, but why do I have to do it?). The reality is I am aiming to get the OA involved with the program so that the boys will get the benefit of youth leadership and my sons can be part of the staff and learn to be better teachers and leaders. It is a win-win in my mind. Sorry to go on but I am excited and I know that the boys from my Pack that attend will never forget!

OOPS, My bad, you are right, I was thinking AOL ceremony, not crossover ceremony. Our chapter does not do crossover or bridging ceremonies and I was taught that a bridging ceremony is the responsibility of the recieving Troop not the Pack or OA. OA does AOL ceremonies here usually followed by a bridging by one or more Troops (and as a Cub Leader, I expect the Troops to provide the resources they need for it, we recently had a Troop express a need for US to have it ready for them, I am still scratching my head over that! LOL). BTW, I was also taught that crossover is what Cubs do going from one year to the next and bridging is what Webelos do when going into a Troop. I guess that is probably a regional thing as well. Part of what I like about internet forums is finding out how wrong I am about some things that I really honestly believed that I knew and understood and later found out that it was just "the way we do it".

BartHumphries, my apologies, as I have mentioned in the past, I have Aspergers syndrome and am very literal. Have you seen the TV shows Bones, or Big Bang Theory? That is me at times. I don't actually grasp subtle innuendo or sarcasm unless I am specifically looking for it. I can be a real stick in the mud at times and when the stick isn't in the mud it may well be up my backside! Again sorry for not recognizing your post for what it was meant to be.

Singlemom, first, I am very sorry that your son had this experience. Obviously this is not something that we like to hear about and wish it never happens to anyone but blaming the Scouting program misses the mark pretty widely. It is a people problem not an organization issue. It does not happen often in Scouting but it does happen often in society, VERY often. As a general rule we can count on our boys to be better about these types of issues than the general public but as in anything in life there will be exceptions when people are involved. I can tell you that you being there or not probably would not have changed the situation other than making it worse for your son had you been there because you probably could not have stopped it and a hovering parent can make a target out of a child in any childrens social network. I can also speak of this with some authority because my son took a good punch at camp a few years ago right in front of me and nobody saw it coming.

There are lots of things that happen in life but there is no way as a parent that you can raise a healthy child by protecting them from the world and not allowing them to experience life on their own. I am not saying throw them under the bus but there will always be problem people and if your son does not recognize those kind of people because you have over protected him then he is at a much higher risk. I also have experienced boys with hovering parents who got beat up just because of the parent situation (not Scouting, I have volunteered with youth for 20 plus years in other areas).

What the people here have suggested are some really great advise and, like it or not, you need to follow up. If the Troop is not handling it properly then the Scout Executive for your Council needs to hear from you personally. If your son really was beat then the police need to be involved as well even if everybody else tells you it isn't necessary. Boys will be boys but Scouts don't beat up boys.

Well, I already know I am weird but I have a dozen or more bags and I have tried a bunch and I keep coming back to an absurdly heavy Army surplus mountain bag. Like others have mentioned, I zip or unzip as temps dictate but I swear I sleep better with that bag even when its 80+.

Unfortunately"?" ours (Cahuilla 127) is all over the web. Google OA 127 Arrow of Light ceremony and you will find it. It works well for any size group. We have done it indoors and out and it works very well. I don't know who wrote it because it was done quite a few years ago but they were pretty good at creating a ceremony!

BartHumphries, you took my comment out of context and edited it. I do not think it is appropriate or fair to change the meaning of a statement by only using part of the statement. What I wrote was "I don't think that using camp tents on platforms with cots should count for anything other than the "You may use a week of long-term camp toward this requirement." and that has a very different meaning that the part you commented on, not too mention the context was about using summer camp staff time towards earning the MB. My point was that I think the camping merit badge should be earned by actually camping. I don't care if you use a cot, in fact both my sons and I do use cots. My sons have aluminum ones and I am actually using an old Red Cross one (it is low but heavy duty). My point was that clicking off days by going to an outdoor motel does not teach the youth much in the way of camping skills and my belief is that they really need to camp with their Patrol or Troop and if they hike in it makes it even better! Because the requirements do allow for a week at resident type camp, I think that working at camp and living in that type of situation should qualify for that particular experience. And, as I noted, that is my opinion and yours may be different. The problem as I see it is that there are parents and Scouts that will do anything to earn a MB while not learning or experiencing it. Yes, there are plenty who do get a lot out of it but there are always a few doing their best to "shortcut" the system. For example, ss we just talked about, the dad who is the sons MBC for 20 some odd MB's and some other recent discussions that are about the boys actually learning "to do". The ones that "shortcut" or "simplify" the process are usually the same ones who don't "get" the point of the aims of Scouting. Earning merit badges is a method of Scouting but for too many it is THE goal.

If you are talking about the official BSA bolo I would think it would be appropriate if the person is an Eagle.

Sometimes that can be true but being OA is not about serving their unit and that is kind of the point of what the last few posts were about. It has nothing to do with limelight, it has to do with carrying yourself appropriately. I agree that there are those that staff training, run Council events behind the scenes and such that serve but are not seen and should be eligible but those are not the ones I am talking about. The ones I am refering to are also referred to as sash and dash. They don't serve AT ALL (it was not a personal shot).(This message has been edited by Hawkrod)

I guess that is where our experiences have differed. I have done hundreds of nights of Cub camping and can't say I have ever seen an older sibling exhibit "Scout" skills when camping with the cubs (even when asked to). They usually bunk with dad and bro and generally don't do much although a few have gotten in some pretty good trouble! LOL I am not aware of ever having one come to one of our events with his "gear" and also have never had the boys following them around "like puppies" that I remember. That has probably colored my perspective. My experience has been much more the "why do I have to do this, it's his campout" type of mentality. Now the Den Chief, that is a whole 'nother thing and much more like what you are describing. Hawkrod

I understand but as I noted, I don't agree that a sibling tagging along at a Cub event counts anymore than a church camp or anything else like that for the reasons I noted, it may be a unit event but the Scout is not participating in his role as a Scout. Now, having said that, you may need to know that I have been primarily a Cub leader and until recently was not all that involved with Boy Scouts so my perspective is from somebody who has spent most of his Scouting time as a Cub leader. I do agree that the Cub side does get a bad rap at times and don't think it is well deserved but poor Cub camping experiences and lousy Cub training make for poorly performing Scouts.

We have a few OA adult "honorees" here. Everybody knows them because we see them at every Council or District social event with nice shiny sashes but when worktime rolls around they are nowhere to be seen! There are also some that are a bit tough to listen to but they do work hard and are always there. They can also be counted on in a pinch when nobody else steps up. I will always choose an obnoxious loudmouth who puts in the effort than somebody who only wears the sash as an award as if they have achieved a goal. LOL Hawkrod

I think that camp staff sleeping in the outdoors qualifies but it is a specific type of camping. I don't think that using camp tents on platforms with cots should count for anything other than the " You may use a week of long-term camp toward this requirement. If the camp provides a tent that has already been pitched, you need not pitch your own tent." part. Also, under normal circumstances, I would think that only a week of camping would count. Many camps work a week and then have a few days off and then come back and as a MBC for camping I would not count each time period as a seperate experience, just an extension of the same experience and would not think double dipping would be appropriate. Your MBC may have a different opinion.

I also wonder a bit about about the discussion of Cub camping. After thinking about it, I would consider "must be at a designated Scouting activity or event" to mean a Boy Scout function but that is my opinion and others may not agree. I would say Cub camping would not count if the boy was participating as a sibling but would count if it were a Den Chief with his den because then it would be part of his "job". Camping at Cub family camping would count if it were specifically being done as "service" with the approval of the boys leader otherwise it would be family camping outside of the "Scouting event or activity" concept only because it is not a Boy Scout "experience" and is not meant to be. The requirement does not say "unit camping" it says "Scouting event or activity" and I believe that there is an intended distincion but again that is just my opinion. The goal of earning the Camping MB is not to get the award, it is to get a distinct experience and gain knowledge. It is always easy to bypass the requirements but that does not benefit the youth and that really is the point of doing it in the first place. Learning and doing these things properly is key to coming away from the experience equipped to handle future experiences properly.

I also think any OA camping would count as that would be specifically a designated "Scout" event even if it is not unit function (again, the requiremenet does not say unit function").

The bottom line is that each MBC will interpret what qualifies as fulfilling the requirement and I know have have said no to several things that did not fulfill the definition as I read it. AS I noted above, I read the requirement "Scouting event or activity" to mean an official Boy Scout thing not a Cub event with a sibling, others may not agree but I think the boys will learn more from a Boy Scout camping event than they will family camping with the Cubs. JMO and your milage may vary

Also Range Safety Officer training needs to be retaken too. Mine expires in less than 60 days! LOL

Sorry, ODS = Out Door Skills, I sometimes forget that everybody has their own terms!(This message has been edited by Hawkrod)