Hawkrod

I do think there should be synergy between the units under a single CO but I am biased because our CO BOD requires our units to work together. We do not require our Pack to be a feeder to our Troop and strongly encourage our Webelos to visit all of the troops in the area to find the best fit for them, not the best fit for us. The units do have a purpose and that is to further our youth program and therefore we do expect them to work together and we also expect the Troop to support the Pack by creating program for the Webelos to participate in, Den Chiefs, Doing service such as working Pinewood Derby etc... but in the end the boys will choose where they are going. This year we are feeding boys into several units. We had one AWL who felt strongly about one Troop and promoted their program and more boys went there than came to our Troop and that is okay as I am sure it will be a better fit for them. We let the boys decide and our Troop does not need to be end for our Pack. If the Pack leadership is picking where the boys are going through a bias and not allowing the Troop to participate then that is where the problem lies and if you have a CO that cares that is what should be addressed. We have both a successful Pack and Troop and both are very active in the community along with having many great leaders and programs and both could stand on their own and succeed but they are not independent of each other and they are expected to work together and support each other.(This message has been edited by Hawkrod)

I think that B&G has evolved into the end of Cubs is because BSA pretty much has directed it that way. The BSA Cub cycle indicates that the bridging to Boy Scouts should happen in the Feb/Mar time frame and because that coincides with B&G it is used to make a "big show" of it. I know when I went to the Cub Extravaganza training at Philmont, we talked extensively on the program timing and it was explained to us about why and when Cubs should bridge. Some of the points that were discussed were too early of a bridging and the boys 1st summer camp experience would not be as good because they would have already completed enough by summer that they would not participate in transition programs and too late of a bridging and they would not have learned any of the patrol method before camp so it ends up being Webelos III. Of course this is all based on the experiences of a lot of people and a few decades of perfecting it but it still boils down to when the boy is ready. Here is the official BSA plan: http://www.directservicebsa.org/pdf/13-027.pdf .

Sounds like you have CO problems not a problem with the CC/COR positions. As I noted and has been discussed a lot, the COR can also be the CC, it is very specifically allowed by the BSA and not discouraged or frowned upon.

What the BSA does not allow is a CO to have different COR's for their units. They may think they are the COR but when it is processed at the Council, the COR on the last charter entered into the system will become the COR for all units of that CO (ask me how I know! LOL).

It really sounds like you have some issues but it isn't the structure to blame, it is the people in place and the CO's failure to be involved. The thing to remember is it does not matter who is the CC as the COR has final authority anyway. The COR can simply fire a CC who does not do what they tell them. It isn't pretty and I can't imagine doing so but if you have people that are already manipulating the system then I would not put it past them.

I think the CO's need a visit and a very detailed explanation of what is expected, what the COR's job is and how things should be operating. Get a copy of the last Charter agreement and do as Beavah suggested and go find the right people to discuss this with. I know that many CO's simply don't have a clue and if the original agreement was years ago then the CO may be totally disconnected and may not even realize it as you suggest.

By your definitions, a Charter seems to me to be much more like a franchise as the basic program is outlined and the BSA put requirements on the participents beyond limiting use such as adult training requirements as well as having a support system. It really isn't either of the two but it basically works the same way as a franchise which is why I choose to describe it that way.

My take was a little different than yours. What I read is an District level person having problems with units that are setup with CC and COR's that are related and how or should they do away with it. The reality is it does not matter and that is not the issue. The issue is CO's who do not understand their responsibilities and obligations to making sure that the unit is operating properly. Too many times a unit is slapped together and then to wither. I have met DE's who will do anything to get a unit chartered but they rarely do a very good job of explaining to the CO what really happens. They sell a package and basically make it sound as though it will run itself and that is what happens. Many CO's are hands off because they think it should be that way. If I left tomorrow, we have a Scouting committee in our CO that will select another COR. We currently have two members on our BOD who have been COR's (one for over 20 years!). No, we are not a church sponsored unit (a lot of people assume that) but our organization understands and takes an active part in our youth programs. I do believe (maybe I am being naive) that almost all CO's will take an active role in a unit if they are properly educated about the program and how it is supposed to work.

I will add that for our unit, arrows are not the norm. We did give everybody who earned AOL an arrow as on our way to Jambo I had stopped at a reservation trading post and had a great opportunity to buy actual, native made, arrows at a great price (guaranteed to never happen again! LOL). last year we did not give arrows etc... A few years ago (more than I want to think about really, time flies) I was a Webelos den leader and we had all completed our activity pins about a month out of AOL (by plan) and for a month I worked diligently with the boys to teach them to make arrows. Each made his own and decorated it as he saw fit. I did not see the point of marking each with tabs or colors representing what he had earned as it was on his uniform. What I taught the boys was to decorate it to represent themselves. My son, who is days away from Life Scout, has his hanging above his bed in a shadowbox. It means a heck of a lot more to him than one somebody gave him.

I had to laugh when I read this thread because I have heard it before. I have actually sat in a meeting where a person was upset due to the lack of checks and balances when the COR is married to the CC and all I can say is the BOD of the CO is the checks and balances, not any unit members. Now, if your CO is too hands off you will have issues but remember, a COR can also be the CC so where are the checks and balances there? How different is it that a married couple share the work than one person do all of it?

I do think that many people think of the BSA as a democratic organization where each participant has a say but that really is not true. Each unit is basically a franchise owned run by a local organization with the goals of benefiting youth by following the requirements of the BSA AND furthering the organizations local youth programs. You only have as much say in the operation and program as the CO grants.

This situation is a bit odd in my experience as the local units COR's are not normally selected from the membership BY the membership but I am sure it happens. I was selected to be COR as a board member of the CO but my wife was CC already at that time (that was part of why I got dumped on, um, er choosen!). As the COR it is my responsibility to make sure our program is successful and meets the CO's expectations.

We have several youth programs in our CO and I have fought the battle of why the units have to participate too many times. The CO did not ask if you want to do it, the CO is telling you that you will do it. If you are joining a unit, you need to make sure that the program in that unit meets your needs because you will be expected to meet their standards.

It does not happen all too often but I am always amazed when somebody joins one of our units and gets upset because what makes us successful is not how they would do it! I was following the other thread where the general consensus is that adults are the problem and I assure you it is for us as well. The drama and problems always comes from the adults who think it should be done some other way.

As long as your COR and CC are not violating any BSA policy then you have no option unless the CO will allow you to select another COR but you will have to go to them as they are the only people who can allow you to do that. You will be staging a coup and unless you are right, it will not go well. If you have a successful program and go to the CO because you don't like it, you will get you nowhere.(This message has been edited by Hawkrod)

I pulled the budget planning and accounting form and it specifically calls for a 10% contingency and 15% for in-direct overhead costs. So Eagle92 is correct if you are just looking at contingency percentages but 25% is what you basically calculate as "profit" in that it is above the amount you spend, "normally". I say normally because you may spend some of the contingency money but in some parts of the country it is "frowned" upon.

It's been a while since I had to fill out the form but when I was the trainer I seem to remember the figure was 25%. It may seem excessive but it covers costs you don't often realize such as flyers for round table and the council staff that process the sign ups etc... I am not saying it actually costs that much, just that is how they calculate it. Without the padding most councils could not afford office staff that do all the behind the scenes stuff you don't think about so all events have a factor built in because the expenses do have to be covered.

Parking lots are always good because they do plow them but don't always clean up and I know around here we have some indoor sports facilities (even local high schools) that always need cleaning up after a game. Just ask around and I will wager that you will actually get more requests or suggestions that you will know what to do with!

Beavah, I am still not getting your point and for that I am sorry. I said if a crime was actively being committed. That has nothing to do with this issue, it was a point about what the options are in some circumstance. I think you are very, VERY misguided about calling the police and about your "standing". If crime is occuring (not something in the past that you have knowledge of, that is not what I said and I think it is innapropriate to twist it to make it sound as if I had said that) you can call the police. In general, if you are somewhere and see an adult committing a crime (and I am assuming a "real" crime not jaywalking) I think you should call the police. I don't care if it is a theft in progress or a drunk driver on the highway, you call. To say you don't have standing is absurd, you do not need to have any dog in the fight to report a crime even that jaywalking!

You are correct, when I wrote YP, I was not talking about a minor one like one on one contact, I was talking about a violation of substance. I am sorry that my response was not better worded but it was an aside to the issue so I was not trying to detail things that were not about the issue, only point out where there are other reasons to handle things differently. In the future I will try and expand my response to say what I am thinking instead of trying to be brief when it is only an side note.

I apologize to all, I am not trying to be a moral compass, I simply and truly believe that some of these questions can be answered without the drama.

I really believe the popcorn examples above prove my point. Poeple thought that they were ripped off and got upset. The CC did not solve the problem. If a UC or a COR (assuming they are active) had gotten involved at the right point these problems could have been diffused. Obviously the one COR handled it poorly and that is unfortunate but following the appropriate line can often resolve problems faster and easier on all, I think that the issue is that so many do not understand what that line is (and I have only known for a month myself).

If I had gotten the answer when I first posted instead of asking for more details and dragging it out, I would have gone to the right people first and the problem would have been resolved quickly but instead it took several days and I participated in something that I did not need to. I did get my problem resolved once I knew how it was supposed to be handled and maybe I am too naive but I think that it would help a lot of people who are struggling to see some basic answers.

I wrote "What to do in this type of situation is specific and unless criminal activity is actively occuring and the police need to be called now, the response will still be the same" to which Beavah responded "If a crime is being committed, is it wrong to call the police? It depends. Sometimes yeh don't have standing to file a complaint. Other times, like if yeh catch one of your scouts shoplifting a candy bar at a rest stop, prudence suggests a different course of action." but we are not talking about youth, we are talking about adults and I am sorry, if a crime is actively being committed, I do believe you should call the police. It does not matter if you have "standing".

I also made note of the YP issue because it is a requirement. I did not say that contacting the SE was all you should do, I said that you needed to do it in a YP situation. I have been there and I have had to do it. I did call CPS first and then the SE, it was not a fund day but it improved somebodies life.

Beyond those two main areas the rest of what I am trying to say is that there are people who's job it is to handle these things and either resolve them or pass them on to those that can. I really can't understand why it matters if this person really stole anything or if it is a missunderstanding because I think talking about it here is sometimes less likely to resolve it than addressing it at the local level. If you address it locally and find out that it was a misunderstanding (which seems to be common) then those people in charge of the program will understand that they have failed to communicate the process in a way that the membership can comprehend.

From my point of view, I do see it as a very black and white issue. The question was "How do you follow the scout law and oath and expect the other leaders to do the same, and when they dont what do you do?" For me that was a very basic two part question. The first part was answered extremely well by clemlaw who wrote "You just do it. The Scout Law is: "A Scout is Trustworthy; A Scout is Loyal, etc." It is not "A Scout is Trustworthy, as long as everyone else is Trustworthy; A Scout is Loyal, as long as everyone else is Loyal, etc."

As for what you do when they don't, the answer is still the same. You continue to follow these principles. If you have witnessed actual criminal activity (such as a leader who has stolen), then you should call the cops."

The second part is where I had a problem. I really think that the chain of command is the right thing to suggest. I am not saying you can't or shouldn't ask for more info but rather offer the answer to the question along with your inquiry. Unfortunately too many Scouter's do not actually know or understand the structure and I think that explaining it to them can help solve a lot of issues quickly. It's my opinion and I am sorry that I am so hard headed about it but I just went through it and wound is very fresh.

Sorry Beavah, I just see your entire post as diversion.

Your example of a Scout coming to you saying something was stolen is a horrible example as it isn't the same thing at all. You are responsible for the youth and it is your job to deal with it. This is an adult who wants to know how to handle something and the two scenarios are so vastly different that you can't compare them.

Also note that you very seriously twisted what I wrote about how to handle it because I did not tell the poster to run off and call the SE and the cops without more information. I think it is repulsive to twist what I wrote that way. I said if a crime was being committed you call the police, are you really saying that is wrong? Sorry but I have to question if you slept at the Holiday Inn 'cause I don't think so. How about a YP issue? You are required to call the SE and you make that sound wrong as well. Are you really of the belief that you can devine enough info to determine if a member should ignore BSA policy? You are clearly saying that doing so would be less hurtful.

Sorry but your twisting and writhing will not change the answer to the facts. There is nothing you need to know bout the situation that could make my responses wrong in any way and all I see is a bunch of double talk that ignores what I wrote and what the OP would do in the circumstances presented.

I appreciate you guys understanding where I am coming from. I think too many get caught up in the why of a question and too often it really is not important. The question was asked and an answer is probably available. This was an easy one and dovetails nicely in what others have said. You do the right thing because it is the Scout way and take it up the chain of command. As I noted, in this case the COR of your unit takes it to the key 3 or the Scouting Executive. Document what you can, provide them with any additional contacts and let them investigate. If it is legitimate it will be dealt with.

I came here and experienced a very similar situation. I do think that I was mistaken on one issue (but it was the how, not the why which the person in charge has since explained to me) but had so much other documentation that it was not an issue. The issue for me is "what do you do with it?". Even though I am a trained COR and have been doing this for a while, I still was not entirely clear on what to do.

This issue has led me to a new understanding of my abilities and also an education to other local COR's who, like me, did a lot of doing what we were told. Now that I know how to handle some types of difficult situations I want to make sure that others find out as well. I think many people find a place like this because they are out there in the world working hard and Googling. I think that getting the answers layed out in laymans terms can help a lot of people resolve issues easier and faster.

In my situation, it was difficult and I burned a few bridges that I hated to burn but as a COR it was my responsibility to carry the issue of the membership forward, for me it was not personal but it was my job to deal with it aside from any personal feelings. At the time, my DE told me I had to but he really didn't tell me what to expect or how it would be handled. What ended up happening is a lot of false accusations were made against us to deflect the real issues and the other party tried to make it personal. It was never personal so it was very easy to prove the issues false. In the end we got what we asked for and even though I took a personal hit, the members of my unit are happy with the results. At this point, I don't really care why the results happened the way they did, I only care that it was resolved and the members under me breathe a sigh of relief.

I understand where you are coming from but my point is simply that the facts of the allegations don't matter to answer the question asked. We are not being asked to judge the merit of the allegations, we are asked what to do if this situation exists. To demand more of an explanation of the allegations is unnecessary to answer. Even if it turned out to be greater or lesser an issue, the question asked can be answered without knowing the details. What to do in this type of situation is specific and unless criminal activity is actively occuring and the police need to be called now, the response will still be the same. Get your proof in hand and do as I have learned is what you are supposed to do.

As far as libel is concerned, I only responded to elaborate somewhat on what is or can be libel.

I will say that what the others have said is valid but I would also say that the details are not important and you guys keep getting hung up on that point.

The point is that a Leader did something wrong, boys left because of it and the Leader who is trying to do the right thing is attacked. What do you do?

Lets step back from the specifics of the situation and respond to what we have been asked. It does not matter what we know about the details, assuming the post is fact (and it does not matter, just answer the question asked). What does somebody do in this situation? You get the details on paper and supporting evidence or documentation and go to your Chartered Organization Representative who should take it to the key 3 but assuming a key 3 that do not handle these things then the COR takes it to the Council Scout Executive.

I will add that doing the right thing seems to bring with it a lot of baggage both in real life and here on this forum. When I had an issue and asked what to do I was attacked as well. I had a serious issue but fortunately for me I also did have a ton of supporting documentation and the issue was resolved to our satisfaction.

The point of libel was brought up and unles you name "names" (make the person identifiable) it isn't libel. If it is true and you do name "names" then it still is not libel. It is libel if you name "names" and you "believe" it to be true and it is not true.

When posting details on a forum such as this it is best not to post specifics that may be recognized by others and avoid getting drawn into justifying by providing details. Also note that you will end up feeling abused by disbelievers here. For some reason "A Scout is trustworthy" unless he is asking how to deal with another Scout who is not and then he is just a target.

We are like many of the Packs above. We have right around 50 boys and we charged $150 last year. The amount varies by year and what we include can vary as well. We were top in popcorn in our district at just over 6K (we are in an low income area, this is very good money and hard work). We include cap, necker, slide, book, youth and adult registration, Boys life, insurance, all awards (not just rank advancement), door prizes at events, AOL gifts, WII crossover gifts, and a lot more that I can't think of right now. We do charge minimal fees for most big events like B&G and Crossover, not for the money sake but because we have had problems getting firm committments. For example we have charged $5 a family for some events or $3 a person if it involves a big expense (we had B&G catered once, I am pretty sure we will never do that again! BTW I did vote against that but there are a lot of mom's on the committee that liked the idea of being served and not cleaning up after cooking!). When we have a fee (no matter how small) people feel invested and show up. If we don't charge we don't know how much food to buy as so many decide to skip it at the last minute. It used to be a very big problem but not any more, charging a small fee works! We had a Halloween Carnival for our October Pack meeting and entry was a bag of candy. I told people just to go to the Dollar store on the way to the event. It was an inexpensive cost but allowed us to host a bigger event and it was a good one! Our costs tend to be high as we do a heck of a lot and nothing is cheap around here anymore. For example, our local camping area is about $500 for the weekend now and we have to rent portapotti's!. Also note that we spent 6K in awards last year. At our annual planning meeting we look at the cost of program and that is where we determine which events will be free and for which there will be a charge. As I noted, having a modest fee with more expensive events can offset the cost and more importantly gives us a much firmer headcount to plan for. Our events can be big, Crossover for example, is a weekend camping event and we have hosted 300! Unfortunately when it gets that big it is scary. We don't charge for most of the events because there is little or no cost associated with it but when we do charge it tends to be a very modest amount. Of course, all of this is decided by the committee at the annual planning meeting and each year it has been different. How much you do and how much you include in the cost is going to reflect in what you charge.(This message has been edited by Hawkrod)

There is a lot of confusion regarding Jac Shirts out there that is for sure. Older ones are harder to find in larger sizes because size shift in the population. In 1966 it was uncommon to have a large group of men that wore a 48 or 50 coat but today it is quite common. It is also a misconception about materials. It is true that early ones were 100% wool but amazingly enough, the current blend started in the mid 60's and for a while, BSA sold both, a blend and straight wool. You can actually tell what it is, if it has a label because the wool industry has different label marks for wool versus wool blend . Also note that older ones have a convex buttons with an almost "iridescent" look to them while newer ones have solid color rimmed buttons. I do not know when the buttons changed but I have noticed that the ones with the older style buttons tend to be the nicer ones even if they are the blend. Finally, in closing (and I am hoping this is not innapropriate and if it is please let me know) our DE has a size 42R that was donated to raise money for FOS.

Are you a parent chartered unit? If you mentioned it before I apologize as I probably was not following. If you are not then your COR should be choosen by the CO not the unit. The COR has a lot of responsibility and their job is supposed to include furthering the CO's program through the Scouts.

I'm with Nike, I have always felt it was important for boys to learn leadership skills and have seen tent situations as a learning experience. The boys all have their friends and that is who they bunk with. This can even cause problems among regular kids. I have always made the boys mix it up and they will end up sleping with somebody else on each campout. This way they get a better opportunity to get to know each boy in the den and they get to learn to "work around" other people who they do not know as well. I started this at the begining of Webelos and did it through the entire program until the boys became Boy Scouts. I have had both boys and their parents tell me how well it worked.

I agree with your concept Beavah, I am just saying that the CO has a commitment to fulfill as well, based on the requirements laid down in the charter. I have yet to come across a CO that intentionally and willfully disregards their commitment once they are fully aware of it. That being said we know that a heck of a lot of them just are not aware of the commitment that they made.

And this is where Perry Mason says "isn't it true...." Yes a troop can really write anything they like into their bylaws but the CO agrees to abide by the BSA program and so a set of bylaws like that is in violation and any DE or UC should be able to get that fixed quickly but your example is exactly why I used my example, I have heard it before.

This has been an enlightening thread. I now realize we operate out committee by consensus. I do understand following the bylaws but the bylaws cannot be in direct conflict of BSA policy. If BSA has a rule (advancement for example), the bylaws cannot set a different standard for the same thing (for example, you can't require that a boy going for Eagle be at least 17 years old and have been SPL for 2 years because those are not the BSA requirements).

Eagle92

AND?????

You know that once a patch is official, you can always change to it, you can keep changing lodge flaps.

LOL Sorry, I could not resist.

If you only have 13 year old patches then you have updated far beyond me. I have uniforms that are and have 35+ year old patches on them but I also have boys that want the "new ons". Our LA install snaps on his shirt pockets and it seems like he swaps lodge patches if somebody sneezes! LOL BTW, My son has several dozen various lodge patches and we are thinking of going with snaps for him as well. Fortunately he has his Jambo uniforms so he as he converts those back he will end up with several of his favorites in rotation.

I should have noted that our Troop is relatively new and fairly small. At this point we are probably lucky if we can get 6 people to a meeting on a regular basis! LOL If everybody (actual positions) actually showed up I am sure the CC would have a heart attack and fall dead on the spot!