Hawkrod

If you live within a council that funds its program through patch sales you would understand! LOL

Dan, I see where you are coming from and definitely agree about how immature Webelos can be (which is why I oppose early bridging as noted in the other thread). Unfortunately I do disagree on making it a seperate program solely because I think it would fail. The point of the Webelos program is success. The boys are the big fish in the pond and serve to drive enthusiasm in younger cubs. They do service and gain recognition, they become leaders. If they were in their own programs then many would be Lone Scouts or the units could end up with just a few boys. My unit has taken in Webelos from other units into our program because their Packs don't have enough boys. We prefer if the boy stays registered in his original unit but comes to our Den meetings and pays only den due to us. He usually comes to our Pack meetings to support his friends but he gets his advancement at his Pack meeting (where our boys try and go in support). For big stuff like AOL we combine it with his unit if we can. The boy becomes an example for his unit and gets recognition and shows leadership there (they usually have siblings in the other units or the unit is chartered by an organizing they are part of) but he is also part of our den and gets the support and is part of our boys peer group. I think we have been very successful in doing this and our Troop's current SPL was a member of my den but registered in another unit. It also brings units together and allows all of the local units to grow through interaction and provides a better program. If you had just Webelos in a unit then there would be a lot of small units and recognition would become a waste of time, why bother? JMO

The actual section from the "TROOP COMMITTEE GUIDEBOOK"

Troop Committee Meetings

The committee meeting is attended by all committee members and the Scoutmaster. Occasionally you may want to invite guests such as your chartered organization representative and unit commissioner.

The Scoutmaster is not actually a member of the troop committee, and has no vote. The committee should not forget that its primary responsibility is supporting the troop program. The importance of mutual cooperation between the two groups of leaders is critical for the smooth and successful operation of the troop.

The support and administration of an active troop requires the participation of every committee member. Every member should have a working assignment. This will not only help the troop to operate effectively, but will assure team spirit and their attendance at meetings. When people feel that it doesn't matter if they attend or not, often they will choose to do something else.

I actually do not understand why the SM would want a vote unless it is a small committee and there have been issues. He would speak to the committee and "sell" his program but as noted, he should not be voting. If you take issue with his voting then get a copy of the book and talk to the CC and COR.

Now, having written that, I really think it depends on the Troop and the situation. In our Troop, a parent from every family has a vote. We are not so big that it is an issue and our bylaws note that a quorum is anything over 50% of the participants present. We register an adult from each family and so each has a vote and I would not exclude the SM as he is also an active parent. Other units will have other reasons pro or con. The fact that our CO is so heavily involved in our unit means that nothing is going to happen that shouldn't and no individuals will ever force something that the majority does not support. I guess time will tell and maybe down the road when we have a larger membership we will address things differently but at this point we are successful and pleased with the way the unit operates. I will also note that the SM is an Eagle, came up though a great program that was run well (properly?) and is a firm believer in boy led units. When he speaks we all listen and rather intently, he is very good at what he does and we can't imagine not supporting him. JMO

I would be very leery of putting charcoal directly on a conductive surface that is placed on concrete. Where you live can have a huge impact on what may occur. If there is a high moisture content then spalling will occur as the moisture boils off. Localized heating can also cause fractures if there is a large variation in base material temperature. Basically what I am saying is that your local conditions may affect the results and I think it is best to err on the side of caution and keep the heat away from the concrete if at all possible. JMO

A Scout is thrifty....

A 55 gallon drum cut in half and two old truck rims make a great pair of dutch oven cooking rigs. Drop the bare steel wheel on the ground and place the solid side of the drum on it and it is off the ground, won't burn the grass and keeps the wind from killing the coals. We use them camping and at home. Try and get some newer wider steel wheels as older wheels tend to be narrower and allow the heat to scorch the grass. I made 4 of these for $25. Hawkrod

perdidochas, you make a very good point. Often the decisions we make can effect others. I sat on an EBOR recently that had us walking away shaking our heads. The boy sat and told us how his SM had created the project, supplied all the materials and labor and how, when he was about to start, the SM decided to split the project in two to make two identical smaller projects so that another Scout could do his Eagle. We discussed the scope of the project with the boy and I know that a couple of us were very concerned by what we were hearing. We did end up passing the boy on the basis that the project was approved as he had done it and he knew it was not up to snuff so had done (and documented) much more than the project was originally intended to be. It was very disconcerting to say the least and the board made sure that the Eagle chair was aware of the issue as well as the leadership of the CO. I think that decisions made by adults that are contrary to the directives of the program usually result in later issues for the youth. As adult leaders we are looked upon as people who do the right thing and shortcuts can be costly. Those shortcuts may never affect the adult (they may even makes things "easy" for them) but other leaders and the youth can pay heavily. I personally see no benefit in a short Webelos program and feel that the boys who participate are not getting nearly what they should and I also think that a short program stems from a weak program. The only boys I have ever known that wanted to cross early were boys who were not stimulated by the program and that is almost always the leaders fault. There is a reason that BSA has gone to a more structured program, it is to keep the boys involved and motivated because so many leaders were not able to do it on their own. FWIW JMO

I guess that I am partly to blame for this discussion (if not mostly) so I will apologize for being frank but as you guys clearly note, "This is not a place for Woosies.". I can understand where you may have had issues and there are several valid points being made but I think it really is important to keep a perspective. This is supposed to be a resource for Scout related things and so the majority of new members will be trying their best to be good Scouts.

I would like to share my story (abbreviated) to give some perspective to this issue. I think I am an experienced Scouter, I have been the COR of two units off and on for a while, I have been a Bear and Webelos Leader as well as ASM and SM. I have been on the District Committee for 4 years as a trainer and activities chair. I am a UC but the DC never gave me any units besides my own (our District has been dysfunctional at times but what District hasn't?). I have taken and staffed Woodbadge, been to PTC and taken any training that was available even if it was outside of my current area of responsibility. I have District Award of Merit and Silver Beaver.

I don't do all of this for reasons that many would but I hope there are some who do it for the same reasons, I am here for my sons and the youth in my units. Both my oldest son and I have Aspergers Syndrome ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger_syndrome ) and Scouting offers us a "safe" place to learn and grow while interacting with people who are willing to take the time to understand us. Yes, I am "weird", you can tell a joke and I won't get it and I will make a sarcastic comment that I really thought was funny and a dozen people will turn away. That is the nature of the disorder. If you have ever watched the TV show Bones you know who I am. I have sworn that my son will never have to go through the pain I suffered as a child. He and I work together to adapt to a world that does not have a good place for us.

Despite the negative expperiences in my life, I still assume that everybody I meet, means well, is honest and trustworthy, and sees things the same way I do. This is both a good and a bad thing. I take what people say and write literally and as the Gospel truth and am often hurt but also often right (isn't that just the law of averages at work?). It is a common misconception that people with Aspergers are emotionless but that is definitely not true, it is that we don't recognize emotion in others. It is a very big difference. We also tend to hold things in until the breaking point so very often what sets us off is not what we are actually mad or frustrated about, it is just the straw that exceeded our limit.

We are fortunate in that my son and I are quite gifted (he is currently 7th in his class at a school for the performing arts, report cards just came home, I am EXTREMELY proud of him) and sometimes we intimidate people by just being who we are. Our motivations and accomplishments often become a source of ridicule or question because we have a different perspective. For my son, earning merit badges is about learning and comfort zones. People with Aspergers tend to have very centralized focus and trying new things is not something we like to do but for my son, learning new skills is not a fear BECAUSE of the merit badge system. My son would never go out into the world and say "I want to learn how to rock climb" but he would say "I want to earn another merit badge, how about rock climbing?". For him, earning a merit badge is a comfort zone and not a new experience to be feared. This makes Scouting a great fit for our family.

We have a large group of amazing people we have met through Scouting but we have also found a rare few that have a different perspective and don't see issues as black and white as we do. For us bending the rules intentionally can't be tolerated. Even unintentionally has consequences for us and, as here, we often apolgize as we perceive an error on our part even when nobody else has recognized it. We are driven to "do the right thing" even when it may be considered absurd to others.

One of the truly worst experiences I have had as a Scouter was when I was pulled aside and told that my paperwork for the Scouter's training award had been submitted even though I had not completed the requirements and that I "owed" the person and they knew I would complete the requirements later. It took me less than 5 minutes to get to the DE. For me, at that moment, there had never been a greater crime. Most would say "what's the big deal?" and maybe it wasn't a big deal to others, but for me, it was extortion and fraud and made me physically ill. The worst part of the whole experience was that I had completed the requirements not only completely but except for tenure, multiple times. I share this because I want others to have a glimpse into why I say and do the things that I do. I can't tolerate innapropriate behavior and when I make a mistake, I tend to agonize over it for a very long time and I can't "forget about it".

I definitely have a tough time in this world and my wife is my anchor. Unfortunately I have a tendency to go overboard in everything I do and the bar gets set pretty high. I am not trying to excuse who I am but rather to explain it so maybe some of you will understand where I come from when you think I may have just simply lost it! Yes, what some of you see as questioning a comment can seem like a personal attack for people like me. My perspective is definitely skewed and I do make mistakes but for the most part I am right on the money even when I am way out in left field. It is a tough balancing act and like a pitbull I am not the brightest because I will keep coming back for more.

In closing, I will add that I have probably learned more operating details from reading this forum (I have read every post on dozens of pages) than I have in my Scouting tenure. I have taken the training and thought I understood my position as a COR. I knew a COR was a voting member but we have never been treated as such and when we do show up we tend to be "in the way" of the business at hand. From what I have read here I now have a better understanding and the original problem that brought me here has been better addressed. From what I learned here I was able to provide direction to others (including scared COR's) and wheels rolled forward. For that I am thankful and appreciate all that you guys did to help us. I can often be overpowering or tough to take and that is unfortunate as it has nothing to do with intent, it is just the nature of the beast. BTW, in case you did not know Bill Gates is considered the poster child for Aspergers. Didn't he just get a Silver Buffalo? LOL It's all good

Some insightful and helpful reading if you work with or want to know more about aspie's:

http://articles.cnn.com/2008-03-28/health/autism.essay_1_asperger-janitor-humor?_s=PM:HEALTH

http://www.yourlittleprofessor.com/benefits.html

http://www.aspergerresources.com/self-esteem.html

http://www.asperger-syndrome.me.uk/people.htm

Also a great resource with a discussion forum for aspie's and their support network:

http://www.wrongplanet.net/

Basementdweller, I am happy to say my experience does not mirror yours. I personally know dozens of active Eagle Scouts that I interact with. I have not yet known a boy who has gotten his Eagle that has dropped out although I am sure eventually it will happen. Part of my sons motivations have been boys that are Eagles that are still with the units day in and day out. My oldest son has been motivated by quite a few boys that he knows well that have their Eagles and continue on and set a great example for the rest. By the time my son was a Webelos he knew approximately 2 dozen active Eagles including the three boys next door, two of the boys that were Den Chiefs in the pack, some boys in the Venture Crew (my son is dying to be eligible to join!) along with most of the summer camp youth staff. Maybe it is where you are (or where I am?) but the only boys around here that get their Eagles that seem to drop out are the 18yo ones! Even at that some are still Venture or OA so we still see them. My last CM and current SM is a local man who got his Eagle and never faded.

Great list, To add to it:

BALOO Basic Adult Leader Outdoor Orientation (Cub Leader)

OWL Outdoor Webelos Leader training

IOLS Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills (Boy Scout Leader)

LOL Laughing out loud (indicates jest or a joke)(Internet)

IIRC If I remember correctly (Internet)

AFAIK As far as I know (Internet)

That is a very good point and I have had boys stay in Webelos until the second June. I also dislike a boy getting AOL on the day he bridges. I think he should get AOL when he is eligable and wear it on his uniform while he continues in Webeleos until bridging. If the AOL is the end goal of Cubs then why should Eagles continue after they have earned their rank? JMO

Please note that I simply concuring with another members observation when they wrote "Forgive my ignorance.....What does COR stand for. For that matter PLC, TC, CO. I have an idea but ahhh I am not sure". There are definitely those that feel uncomfortable not knowing what the abreviations mean and have been viewed as less knowledagable or experienced because they do not understand an acronym. I have a slightly different issue than many because I have Aspergers which often limits my ability to interpret (I read things VERY literally and nuance is easily lost) but there are others who also fail to comprehend the abbreviations because they have never been exposed to them. It is great if you know what it means but I will tell you that I spent quite a bit of time Googling before I came across the page that ScoutNut was kind enough to post but even the acronym link on that page is short compared to many I have read in the recent past. This site has become a go to tool for me and for my units but some of it can be daunting to comprehend but I guess that kids texting would probably laugh at us for using so many "whole words" and wasting so much time and energy! LOL I guess it is all a matter of perspective.(This message has been edited by Hawkrod)

You are correct, it is very clearly "or". To earn the AOL the boy must: "1.Be active in your Webelos den for at least six months since completing the fourth grade (or for at least six months since becoming 10 years old), and earn the Webelos badge". Which I think is is pretty clear. If the boy is in fact active for six months as a Webelos after turning 10 and has completed the requirements of AOL they are able to bridge even if they are in the 4th grade. Around here that would be unusual because we are used to boys turning 10 in the 5th grade as they start Kindergarten at 5. Here, it would be very unusual for us to see a boy who is 10 in the 4th grade but I am sure it is different in other parts of the country but that is something I would not be used to.

Wow, that is a question that has a lot of answers! LOL Why are people not coming?

Is it because the program did not offer anything? If yes, look at making sure you have program. Our Cub Round Table is suffering right now but we have a couple of guys that are knocking everybodies socks off at Boy Scouts by having a ton of useful info and they have been doing Dutch oven cooking at each meeting. It takes a lot of committment to do that but the guy running it is amazing (My wife and I nominated him for Silver Beaver and he was accepted so he is an "above and beyond" kind of guy). Our OA lodge has their meeting at the same time and place which draws in a lot of people as well.

Our round Table was getting pretty weary and even now it can drag but the RTC started making it fun, giving out silly prizes and asking people to do presentations. We have had some good ones including a presentation on BP, another on Seton, one with historical memorabilia and an OA one that discussed and showed proper regalia just as examples. People are your resources, look to people who may not regularly attend RT but who have interests that they can and like to share with others (any patch collectors or Scout buffs in your District? Ask around, every District has them and they don't hide that much!).

Is the meeting scheduled poorly? It amazes me how many times meetings are scheduled the same nights as many unit meetings. I am not really available Tuesday or Wednesday but a lot of meetings seem to be scheduled on those nights. Have you polled the units to see when their meetings are to try and offer time and day when most could attend? If you have a 130 units in your District (about where we are) and 100 are having meetings that night you are already done for!

If the meeting is scheduled right and has good program then it falls to advertising. Does everybody know? I will be honest and tell you that for the first couple of years that I was involved, I did not even know that RT existed or really what it was after I heard about it at a training class. Send your UC's to trainings and committee and unit meetings if you have them, if not then get a list and start visiting yourself.

The bottom line is to not give up, get others involved and create a committe charged with getting the word out that changes are in the works and everyone needs to be involved.(This message has been edited by Hawkrod)

I see this come up a lot and the BSA does have a plan and program in place for transition. One of the more useful tools is http://www.scouting.org/filestore/CubScoutMeetingGuide/PDF/Appendix/511-807.pdf which shows parents and leaders the BSA plan. The first time I saw this was at a Philmont class about transition and retention for Boy Scouts and the person conducting the program (a national person) explained that early bridging led to loss of retention. Unfortunately I did not see any documentation of this but in my own experience that has been true. I do believe that Webelos should be an 18- 20 month program to allow the boys to fully learn the material and experience the program. I will also add that the LDS program is very different and comparing it to a community program is not really possible. The LDS do not have Tigers and as noted there are no 10 year old Boy Scouts and the 11 year old Scouts do not join the Troop as such, they join the 11 year old Scouts (it is an entirely seperate program within the Troop in the units I deal with). The reality is that even most 10 1/2 year olds with AOL are not mature enough to interact with 16 and 17 year old boys in a truly meaningful way and I think that early bridging can cause a loss of esteem and thus failure (keep in mind that these boys are at the top of their game in Cubs, they are the big fish and they are about to become minnows again!). This will not always happen but early bridging probably should be the exception rather than the norm. Bridging just before summer at B&G or soon thereafter allows the boy to get his feet on the ground and work for 1st class at summer camp. JMO(This message has been edited by Hawkrod)

In defense of lilizard62, the internet can be a tough place to try and discuss issues. I managed to make quite a mess out of trying to get help. I did not really want to go beyond very specific facts but a lot of people had the same reaction as I see in this thread. Fortunately my SE has become involved and a lot of the issues cleared up very quickly. Had he not been willing to help I do not know where I would be but the reactions I got from people here were disbelief. Just because we have not run into the issue does not mean it isn't happening or that the person is trolling for attention. I came here hoping to find answers and the reality is that it was not a good experience as rather than answer the question on its face value, people responded that they had never heard of something like that and questioned the me as if I were a criminal. How about instead of attacking the person who is asking for help, you answer the question if you know and don't respond if you doubt it. I know it sucks being questioned this way for asking for help in finding an answer. I know for sure that my posts on this forum are now carefully gaurded and I am quite sure this post will take fire but doing what is right is more important than doing what is easy. BTW, I had a really hard time understanding the abbreviations as well. I had never seen or heard them used before but God forbid we should ask such an innocent question because it sheds doubt upon our skill and experience as a leader. I can tell you that I think a few high and mighty people here are here only to rule the roost and be seen in awe by all around them. They have a ton of experience and knowledge but sharing it isn't always free, sometimes you have to pay the price to get an answer. JMO

I do know for a fact that the IH can't be the COR because I was the COR and then was elected IH and as soon as we tried to recharter the system kicked it out so we had another board member be COR during my tenure as IH. The funny part is that some issues came up while I was not COR but I still managed to catch all the blame even though it had nothing to do with me! I still shake my head about that one! LOL

I agree with Scoutfish, a COR may have more than one of the same type of unit due to various issues. For example, I do know that there are large Packs out there but for us 50-60 kids is about the limit for our effectiveness. We got around 80 a couple of years ago and it became almost unmanageable and the DE and I discussed splitting the unit. We did make it through the year and bridged a couple of dozen Webelos which brought us back down to manageable level but we decided that if we ever had 100 registered youth that we would split the unit. I know that there are plenty of units with more boys but for us it seems that our leadership is more comfortable with about 50 boys. Our CO is heavily involved in our units and even though we only have one COR on paper, there are several board members that take an active partipatory role in the running of our units and the CO board makes a lot of decisions about how our units are run.

I guess that is where I am confused. As an active COR you are part of the unit and as a voting member you are representing that unit and your vote is based on being the COR of that unit. You can't be a COR if you don't have a unit right? TIA

Eagle92 wrote "COR = Charter Organizational Rep. that's the person who sis suppose to represent the unit on the district and council level,i.e. is a voting member of both bodies, wears silver loops and no unit number if in uniform, etc."

I did not want to hijack the other thread as this has nothing to do with the issue but I have never heard anything about the COR not wearing unit numbers. Because a COR represents specific units why do they not wear the numbers? TIA

I am sorry ScoutNut, you wrote "Well, obviously. Trust me, no one is saying your program is better because you charge so much.

When folks make comments about how they are undercharging it is meant in jest. You know - sarcasm" and unfortunately I read that to mean what it says, that the comments were jest and sarcasm about what I wrote. I am sorry that I am not able to follow along. I do have Aspergers and it can make it very difficult because I take a lot at face value, I assume that what you write is what you mean. Either it is or it isn't. You said it was so I accepted that as a mistake on my part now you say it isn't. I am having a very hard time following. No matter what you meant, I am sorry that I was not able to comprehend it.

Unfortunately I did not recognize it as sarcasm so I am glad you pointed it out but also be aware that the fact that I did not recognize it and it was aimed at me means that there will be others who also do not recognize it. I will reitterate that the programs need to meet the needs of the membership. In our Troop, our costs are relatively low because the fees are just the actual basic costs but our Pack has been built upon for decades and draws people based on what we offer. For many it is far too much but that does not make it wrong, it just makes it a poor fit for those people. I was exposed to a Pack who's Webelos went to Mexico and built a house for someone as a service project. I was dumbfounded but I was also told of the kind of money they deal in and for what some of their individual parents spend, I could run our entire program.

I am a little concerned by what I see people posting about not charging enough. I think it is critical to understand that you should be charging based on what your expenses are not what other units charge. Our expenses tend to be higher because we both do so much and we live in southern California which drives expenses. For example, we use a local facility for many of our events and it is over $450 to rent it for 3 days. We try and trade service for facility use but that does not always happen and even when we trade for service we still have to pay for porta potti's (it is a requirement to use the facility). There are expenses that most people never think of and I will be the first to admit that our unit can be way over the top (our PD is a racers dream!). As far as multiple events on the same day, it is not the Pack that sets the dates and so different groups will go seperate ways pretty regularly. We kind of have adapted to that mentality. If it is a Pack coordinated event like B&G or Crossover or even family camping then all go there but there are so many other District and Council and even other Council events. For example, we always have a large group at LA Council's Rocket Academy and it is always scheduled the same time as a local event. One of our den leaders is an 8th grade science teacher (and an amazing one at that) and so he will always go to Rocket Academy (and if you are in So Cal you should do it at least once, it is amazing, they do a mind blowing job!). Another event that always splits us are Webelos only events such as Webelos Woods and Tribe of Wisamahi where tag alongs are not welcome. When these events are on our calendar we almost always have another event for Wolf and Bear and probably Tiger (depends on what is available). We are also unusual as our participation level is extremely high and we have actually had events with 100% participation (not too common though!). We can always count on an 80% participation rate for any big event though. We do use patch segments for a lot of stuff but the bigger patches are used for specific things. For example we recently had Webelos at Calico and Joshua Tree National Park. We purchased local patches at both events and those are $3 or more. I cringe at times but the committee decides not me (I am actually super cheap, my friends call me Sanford because I save and reuse everything!). The bottom line is you must charge whatever you have to to stay solvent and provide whatever program you are providing. Just because another group spends more does not mean that their program is better, it may just mean it is different and their unit has a different set of expectations. I know that compared to some units in Orange County we are flat out cheap to join! LOL(This message has been edited by Hawkrod)

ScoutNut, we have an extremely active unit. There are usually at least a couple of big events every month. We had to buy an extra Pack flag just so we would have one when two groups go to different campouts (it happens a lot). We also have a hiking program that recognizes quite a few boys every month and many other events. One of our more recent and also expensive events was we took a large group of Cubs and spent the night on the USS Midway down in San Diego (it's a fantastic experience, I would go again in a heartbeat) yes, it can be a lot. We also have over 50 boys (after the last discussion I checked and we are down to 53 currently but we have had between 50 and 60 consistently for most of the year. At one point we had over 80 and it actually hurt the program because we were too big to be effective and there was times when there were 4 events scheduled on the same day! As I noted, we are active and involved in a lot of events. Our boys always do Klondike camping, summer camp, the Webelos do Tribe of Wisumahi and Webelos Woods, our pack provided most of the staffing for summer day camp for the last several years (when the adults go the kids are there as participants!), We participate in a Civil War re-enactment program, Rocket academy, The childrens parade, Freedom Festival, Fall Festival, Community flea market (twice a year), Sherrif's Stampede, Calico Ghsost Town and a whole bunch more (I can only list what I have done and remember off of teh top of my head in the last year, there are other events that others went to because I was with the Troop part of the time). If you do a lot, the kids earn a lot.

Wow, I see a lot of variation here! What we charge changes annually based on the previous years fundraising and our expenses. The committee decides what we need to stay solvent and the IH approves it (or not).

In this most recent year, we charged $150 for Pack renewal (new registration is sightly higher as there are extra expenses such as a shirts) and $55 for Troop, Obviously the Cub program is much more expensive but we also include a lot. Our Cub program cost over $300 per boy for the previous year and the balance is made up by the IH, donations and fundraising. I would love to say popcorn would support our pack but we have been top in sales in our district for several years in a row and that just isn't the case. As noted in the other thread, we include the book, necker, etc... and the pass through costs for each boy is just over $100. Pass through costs are those items that we collect the money for but do not keep any of like both a youth and an adult registration for each family, insurance, uniform parts etc... One of our eye opening expenses is advancement, we easily spend about $5000 a year at the Council shop as advancement is usually between $400 to $600 a month! We also have expenses that many units do not incure because our CO is community minded so we do have some unusual expenses. For example, we have a Scoutership program for those unable to afford the program (we have a very small CO choosen committee as we do not share when a family has applied for assistance), we have a military program where we send various items like magazines, DVD's, beef jerky and anything else you can think of!) overseas to an active duty station. This year money was tight so we only sent about 15 boxes IIRC, and we also have several community related events that we incur costs for (local parades, Freedom Festival, WinterFest, school carnivals etc...). many of the things that we do are things that most units would not but our CO expects it and thus it becomes a cost for all members such as building a parade float (we have done some serious ones!). When we interview prospects we always discuss this and when it does not fit in their idea of what they want to do we always refer them to one of the other local units. We would never want anybody to not join Scouts because we are more costly so we tell them upfront that there are many other less expensive programs available.

Our Troop on the otherhand has much lower financial demands and so our registration fee is mostly pass through costs. We do register one adult from each family so that is always an extra expense. Because the Troop is relatively small and the boys are a bit more mature, the community aspect required by the CO is mostly service to the community (our boys do service for Packs for example, offering den events and staffing Pinewood Derbys or volunteering at Cub Day Camp) so there is very little cost and thus no need to charge more. We do have a Scoutership program and our winter program was to help needy families (this year we managed to feed one family a holiday dinner and put gifts under the tree for a family of 5 children taken in by their grandmother). The boys worked hard and make these things happen but they and their families realize that the associated costs are small to each of us but are huge to the recipients and thus it is a program that the CO expects and the boys are happy to support. I know there are cheaper ways to run a program and as I have said, we make sure to let people know that when we are recruiting. We even go so far as to require our Webelos to visit all the local Troops as we do not use our Pack as a feeder for our Troop. Our program may not fit the needs of the boys and it is always more important that their needs are met than our unit gets new Scouts.

We know others may disagree with how we do it but things have been this way for a very long time and the CO is very involved in our unit so the standards they set for us are much higher than that of most CO's. We do recognize that we have a costly program (but not the most expensive for sure!) but it has been effective for over 40 years. The cost of each unit will be defined by the benefits. Some people would say that requiring a unit to be in a local parade is an expense that we should not incur but the CO does require it as they believe it makes the boys more aware of being part of the community and it fits in their goals. JMO

Recent Troop run engineering activity pin event for local Webelos held at the Calico mining area (yes, the parking was undesirable but it was Cub car camping and the facility has rules about how and where you park!):

http://mysite.verizon.net/tcherry3/pictures/100_1894.jpg

Pack flag folding:http://mysite.verizon.net/tcherry3/pictures/IMG_5336.JPG(This message has been edited by Hawkrod)

SeattlePioneer wrote "If knots shape a Scouter's behavior to achieve them by completing the requirements honestly, they are a VERY cheap way to motivate Scouters to do useful things for the program. " and I like the way it sounds. If it works as you have written then yes, it is an excellent and inexpensive tool. Obviously if the knots are achieved any other way then the point it lost.