Hawkrod

First off, I commend you for wearing a neckerchief. These days far too many leaders opt out.

If you have a son in the pack, it's customary to wear the same slide he does. I would recommend that Den Leaders wear the same slide as the boys in their den.

As CM (and CA previously), I wear a 60's era grey metal "turks hear knot" slide that my Scoutmaster gave me when I was elected SPL. They're all over ebay--just search for "vintage boy scout slide". If I didn't have that one, I'd wear one of the ones I've made over the years.

I really like the idea of making them and handing them out to the boys as a rewards for a job well done. I'm gonna have to steal that!

Thanks qwazse. I've been avoiding using my inner cop simply from the standpoint that i'm the new cubmaster, and don't want to immediately be known for being a hard-ass. There'll be plenty of time for that, I'm sure. ;-)

It's a delicate balance, especially as we're trying to aggressively grow the Pack.

We're going to have a meeting with the parents as part of fall "reconvening" process (of course we're remaining active over the summer)....

We wore the red berets in my troop back in 88-92. We voted on it and they were the overwhelming choice. We actually wanted the old style flat cap (garrison cap) but we were young and didn't know the real name for them--we referred to them as "McDonalds hats" b/c that's what they wore at McDonalds at the time.

The ASM didn't understand what we wanted and really blew a gasket about us wanting "McDonalds hats". So we went with the berets over the baseball cap. We later were able to communicate (via a rather derogatory military slang name for the hat) which hats we had originally wanted, but were told that they had been retired years ago.

I have to say, though, the choice of the beret really set us apart as a troop, and we all wore them correctly. Everyone knew the troop. And they were easily stored under your shoulder loop. And I used mine for several of the additional uses noted by Penn above.

But yeah, in retrospect, they seem a bit....frenchy. :-D But I always kinda dug them. These days as a Scouter, though, I wear the Indiana Jones hat. But I really want an official BSA fez!

I don't recall "fair" being in the Scout Law. It was announced ahead of time, it's part of the Troop Culture and it sounds like the kids were courteous about it. I see no problem with it.

I agree with the person who said "why don't we just hand out Eagle to everyone?" There need to be rewards for the boys who go the extra mile (complete the task, etc), whether it's a patch, a woggle, or a tasty frozen treat.

In my CS Pack, we gave all the boys a piece of leather thong as a necklace when they join the Pack and we hand out pony beads for participation at otherwise "optional" Pack Events--things like like parades, hikes, pack overnighters, service projects, etc. Not all boys get them as not all boys participate in everything.

By nature it is "exclusionary and unfair". It's a way to reward those who do more--it is NOT a method to punish kids who didn't. Although in the current "equality of outcome" mentality that seems to pervade American culture more and more every year, I'm waiting for the day that I get confronted like the OP did because "Timmy's daddy had to work and he couldn't go on the hike".

OP, carry on.

Wow, lots of great ideas in this thread and lots to think about.

Our pack is about 15 kids. Pretty small. This wasn't a 3 hour ceremony, it was a relatively quick one (a modified version of the "Tiger, Wolf and Bear Paws" ceremony) which followed a cookout/pot luck.

I don't think it's too much to ask for the remaining boys to sit quietly for 3 minutes while a den of 4 boys is getting presented their Wolf badge, is it?

One mistake was not having them sit by den. We'll make sure to make that happens next time and separate them out from their parents. That's a good idea, and for some reason we've not been doing it (largely b/c "that's just how they did it" and being the new Cubmaster, I haven't wanted to come in and change everything, you know?).

Another good point about greeting each of the boys at the door. Of course, we didn't have a door being as we were outdoors, but a good idea as well.

I appreciate the discussion folks. Glad this community is here!

Thanks y'all. Clearly I'm not alone in this. If it were older Scouts (Boy Scouts), it'd be one thing. I'm dealing with Cubs here--and young ones at that, Tigers, Wolves and Bears.

Like I said, a certain amount of this can (and is) attributed to "boys will be boys"--the restlessness, general silliness, etc. I was a boy once and totally understand--I can work with that, no biggie. I've "done time" in Public Education as well, and know all too well about tailoring the program to fit the kids.

Mostly I'm referring to addressing the talking back, foul language, etc. We actually had one kid hit his mother when she corrected him (which she addressed via the "60's Pack Meeting" method BasementDweller referred to). Stuff completely unbecoming of Scouts, especially Cub Scouts.

For now I'm using the "Signs Up" method, which works for about 2 minutes--long enough to announce the names of the kids to come up front to be recognized and then it's chaos again. Repeat with "Signs Up". Sounds like that's going to have to be the approach for now, along with working with the parents.

Does anyone have any Pack Program ideas for a "Respect" Theme?

thanks!

Greetings fellow Scouters! As this is my first post here, a little about me. I'm an Eagle Scout ('92) who took a hiatus of ~20 years as I went through college, work, starting a family, etc. I have a 6 year old who wanted to join last fall, so I became his adult partner and it was immediately apparent that our small, somewhat foundering Pack needed me, so I joined up as a Committee Member and then shortly thereafter, Assistant Cubmaster. Our Cubmaster announced earlier this year that they were moving on, so as of last night I stepped into the Cubmaster position. Talk about being "all in"!

Anyway, we had our Graduation Ceremony last night and it was a wonderful evening with one small (well...really not small) "issue".

Our Cubs have a tremendous lack of respect. Not only for the leaders, but also for each other. Unless they were the ones up front getting an award, they were talking, making rude noises, out of their seats shaking their butts, that sort of thing. It doesn't help that some of them are chronic behavior problems and that their parents don't bother to do anything about it.

Certainly part of this can be attributed to "boys will be boys", and some of it can be definitely attributed to the fact that they were all amped up last night to receive their rank and move up to the next den. As a father (and one time young boy) I can appreciate that.

But at the same time, as a kid, I never would have dreamed of acting like this. I knew that when an adult was speaking that I was to be silent and be respectful. I also knew that I'd "hear about it" when we got home if I wasn't. That doesn't seem to be the case with these kids (or their parents, more's the pity).

So...how to teach the boys respect? Any tips? This is "Golden Rule" stuff--treat others as you'd like to be treated and that sort of thing. And how to get the parents to reinforce that at home (which, IMO, is probably the crux of the problem in the first place)?

I felt like I spent more time with the Scout Sign in the air than anything else, and that's disappointing.

Yeah, it stinks but like a lot of others have already pointed out, there are significant benefits. A big part of why I am a leader is what it gets my boys. The extras so to speak, going to camps, helping staff events etc... The benefits to the boys extra efforts is in more and greater experiences. I doubt that I would be staffing camp every summer if the boys did not go with me. Being with them is why I do it. Other boys cut short and go home but I also know their fathers spend less time with them and many of them would rather spend more time with me. I do it and it costs my boys at times but they also know there are benefits to them and they pretty much quit whining a long tme ago because they realized that like most things in life you have to earn it. My 13 year old is working on his Eagle, has nearly 35 merit badges and is an achiever. This did not happen because I was sitting on his head making him do it, it happened because he has had so many opportunities that came along related to all that I do. Soetimes it is lousy but then the good times are better than the best times others have. JMO

I don't agree with you at all. In fact, I would prefer to be on the opposite side just based on your offensive position. And I am obviously offended when you say "The purpose and function of a Troop Committee is to keep a BSA Troop run by a bunch of mommies and daddies who don't go camping." as I am on my second summer campout starting today so as a committee member I do camp (as do msot of our committee but not all but the purpose is not as you say and I consider your "interpretation" a boldface lie and a Scout should never do that. The purpose of the committee is as I said it is. We make sure it happens safely or does not happen because it is not possible. It has nothing to do with control or being adult led, it has only one concept, teaching the boys to do it right. I can't imagine why you keep sticking to the idea that we have to do it Baden Powell's way when the BSA never has from the very begining. I think it is you trying to wrest control from the boys and dictating how they need to do it. It is your opinion and it is not factual and I think you are wrong, VERY wrong. Your idea of how we should be doing it does not benefit the youth in any way beyond the fact that they would have a lot of fun while getting into trouble and injuring themselves. You seem to be dictating that any rules that the committee has is unreasonable. I think your nuts. The committee has to tell the boys they have to raise the money if they want to do something, you seem to prefer that the boys do whatever it takes to get the money so they can do whatever they want so you would forgo any rules or laws just because they are boys right? How is that helpful? The boys want to sell food at a local event, a bake sale as it were. The committee is responsible to make the boys aware that the law requires a food handling permit and a license. How is that wrong? How do you expect the boys to be experts in all things from the get go? Somebody has to tell the boys they have to look into the requirements. The boys usually don't do that on their own that is for sure. Heck most adults don't comprehend what is required for a lot of the stuff we do including teh best Scoutmasters so as a committee we make sure the boys cover the bases.

Why attack people for doing what they are supposed to. I have lost any respect I had for you. It isn't right to accuse people of doing wrong like you have when they are not. I think you are missing a huge part of what this program is about and why we do it. This is not supposed to Baden Powells Scouting, this is the Boy Scouts of America and from the very begining we have steadfactly ignored parts of Baden powells program. Does that mean you are condeming all BSA from the beginingg because it isn't pure and has evolved with society? If it is not the way you say it must be then it is wrong? Maybe you just don't understand how it is "supposed" to work and so you lashed out and attacked the committees. There are lots of trolls around and that was a very trollish comment.

Yes Kudu, you are right about how it was but your way off base on the purpose of a Troop copmmittee and I am calling you out on it. I take offense that you would make such an offensive statement when you do not know me and my committee but you make an accusation like that. Yes, Baden powell did it differently but he also did it without the benefits of telephones, electronics, quick worldwide travel and all of the fundamental issues that come with "progress". He did not deal with widespread child abuse and sexual explotation, rampant drive by shootings and criminals who could dissappear easily so they had no fear of committing a crime. In those days if you were caught you were lucky to get away whole if you hurt somebodies child. Now you get treatment and get to try and do it again. In those days it was no trouble to find a meeting place or get to places you may want to experience. Today that involves money, logistics and possibly even passports (yes, I have taken Scouts out of the country). It is really stupid to suggest that the way it was done 100 years ago is the way it should be done now and it is even more idiotic to make accusations about people you do not even know.

I think too many people read stuff into what they see. The site is a retail site. It is not well organized and does not dictate policy. In fact, the official policy on headgear is that whichever headgear a unit chooses is headgear for that unit. I have said it several times before but I will say it again here, just because it is an official BSA item does not mean you are allowed to wear it in your unit. Headgear is choosen by the unit and "once a uniform, always a uniform" does not apply. From the uniform inspection sheet: All troop members must wear the headgear chosen by vote of the troop/team. They may choose the campaign hat or they may choose the cap, expedition hat or all but whatever the choice, it is only for that specific unit and all members must follow the policy.

The program is at Helendade. They are trying to do the same thing at Emerson but they are doing with the rest of the Troops in attendance and that just does not work as well in my opinion. It is too distracting and the boys do not remain in the patrol for the entire week (unless they changed it since I last saw it there) as they regroup with their Troops in the evening and break out again in the morning. The idea of isolating them and keeping them in a patrol for the week is part of what makes it work. Also the lack of the distraction of the other things going on around them helps as well.

Helendade is a smaller camp with a smaller potential group attending and so holding Target on Transition and the Tribe of Wisumahi brings camp to capacity and because the two programs are very similar in structure but very dis-similar in program lets them work side by side without any issues that I have seen at other camps.

I am a huge proponent of these types of programs as I have experienced many different programs and these are ones that seem to "stick" with the boys. I have come across men who went through the programs and who have volunteered to come back and work them! These are the kinds of programs that produce "AHA!" moments!

I do realize I am biased but I am biased but that is based on the reasons I have given. The Tribe of Wiumahi program for 2nd year Webelos has been fine tuned over the last couple of years and is very much aimed at teaching leadership skills and the patrol methods through cooperation and teamwork and each year it gets just a little bit better. The new camp director is a great lady who is an amazing outdoorsman with a family of Scouts and she firmly believes in these programs and has gone above and beyond to make them happen and make the experience as good as it can be.

Sorry SeattlePioneer, I could have expounded! The transition program is a weeklong camp where the boys are immersed in the patrol method and taught by a Venture crew. The entire focus is about working as a patrol and the details of it. For example (and I still laugh) during meal planning a couple of years ago, the boys decided on hamburgers so they create a list for the quartermaster: 1 pound hamburger, 1 package hamburger buns, 1 onion, 1 tomato, 1 bottle ketchup, 1 bottle mustanrd, 1 head of letuce, cheese. So they got what they asked for including that single slice of American cheese! LOL You know those particular boys will never forget to say "6 slices of cheese" ever again! They do work on a couple of basic MB's as a group but the entire focus is the boys learning to work together and share the load. They come in and are asigned to a patrol and then live with those boys for a week with very, VERY little adult interaction. They are taught to look to the older boys for guidance and the Crew members know how to do it. The boys come out with a very clear understanding of how to get things done in a group and why everyone has to share the jobs, both good and bad, so that they all succeed. I was just talking to the program director this afternoon and although this is not a new program, she is dealing with SM's who are not happy that the boys have no choice in MB's as all the boys do the same thing as a group. Too many don't get it but thankfully their boys will! It isn't about advancement or MB's, it is about learning to be a Scout at the most basic level.

Moose, You are probably rightabout the scheduling but our Committee usually handles the calendar for the SM, it isn't that he needs reminding or that he can't do it, it has always been the committee who has done it but it does not need to be that way. It also helps having ten pairs of eyes on the calendar when things get busy becaue our SM already has a ton of stuff on his plate! LOL I know he appreciates the help so I wouldn't suggest changing it but others may have another way that works better for them.

I have some EXTREMELY strong opinions on this subject. Our Council offers a transition camp program and from what I have seen it is the best out there. It is not about advancement (although there is plenty if a boy works at it) but it is about making the change from Cub Scouts/non-Scout to Boy Scouts. A few years ago our Council experienced a forest fire at the camp that hosted transition camp and so it was held at another camp with the regular program and I saw the most horrible Scout experience of my career. The way it worked (and works at most T-2-1 programs) is the Scout is with his Troop and after morning meal the newbs peel off and go to their own program while the experienced boys go to their activities. They get back together afterwards and spend the evening with their Troop. Our transition camp is different in the fact that the oldest boys in camp are the ones doing transistion and we also have a large group of second year Webelos in camp at the same time attending a specialized program. Anyway, at this camp I saw a brand new Scout at dinner going on about all he had learned and how great it was and to my horror, an Eagle Scout that was about 17 or so sitting across the table decided he was tired of hearing it and said "thats stupid, even a Cub Scout can do that". I hadn't seen a more crestfallen boy before, The wind was taken right from his sails and he wasn't interested in anything after that. I was pretty upset. I will say that I have been to other camps where they do merge the programs pretty well but I will always be a huge proponent of a transition program that is about getting kids acquainted with Scouting and the Patrol method seperate from the spectre of getting rank ASAP and under the scrutiny of older boys. I think transition camp should be required and the boys at our camp are given a great opportunity to learn how it should be and often times, because they know how it "should be" they become leaders by knowledge and experience. The boys I have taken to transition have better retention and I believe a better Scouting experience than the boys who go to a "trail to 1st class" program at regular summer camp with the rest of the Troop. Because we do teh program with second year Webelos in camp the Boy Scouts are the "big men on campus" and the Cubs look up to them. It builds their self esteem and makes them feel pretty good about themselves which I believes helps in the information retention. I also believe that we get a higher percentage of the Webelos excited about Boy Scouts because they see all the "cool" stuff the Boy Scouts are doing. I see this as an amazing win/win for everyone involved and I truly beieve it has the most benefit of any program I have seen.

BTW, The timing of this is thread is interesting as my youngest will be going to transition camp on Sunday along with another new boy from our Troop and then in two weeks they will be attending summer camp with the rest of the Troop and taking a T-2-1 program. Maybe the best of both worlds for the boys although a bit of a strain financially as I have to foot the bill for it! LOL

Wow, this an old thread that was dredged up isn't it! LOL

I have to say that I agree though, the campaign hat is a unique and recognizable item that does look sharp and has a place. The funny part is I have worn one since I became a leader. It was not about the looks for me though, it was about the fact that I tend to be "frugal" and already had one. I do not generally wear any kind of hat but when I became a Cub Leader I needed one to set the example and on the top shelf in the back of my closet I had an old DI hat waiting for the moths to take it over. I was new and did not know about "official uniforms" and such, it was the right color and still fit my fat head so I wore it. The kids in my Den and Pack loved it and it became just a part of "us". I eventually wore it out and started wearing various BSA hats that I had acquired and the kids were really upset. It came to a head at a B&G when a boy asked me why I didn't wear my full uniform anymore! I asked he what he meant because I was prim and proper and he said I was missing my hat! That week I went to the Scout shop and bought another "correct" hat for my boys. I wear it to all special occassions and both of my sons also now have campaign hats and wear them with pride.

One final note that was never mentioned in the original posts is that hats are not covered under the BSA "once a uniform, always a uniform" credo for Troops. Troops choose which hats they use and if a Troop has not approved the campaign hat it should not be worn by anybody in that unit. I doubt this would ever be a big issue as the PLC could be petitioned to make a change if it does not recognize them but just showing up in one without checking could be considered innapropriate.

The Troop Committee has a lot to do just like any other baord of directors. I will say that I think that OldGreyEagle missed the mark pretty wide when he wrote "I think its also important to note that the purpose and functin of the Troop/Unit COmmittee is not to hire/fire or otherwise interfere with the scoutmaster, cubmaster etc. They support the program on equal footing with the direct contact leaders of the unit" because that is a big part of what BSA says they should do and what I expect of them as a COR. Yes, I approve all adult leaders but recruiting them or identifying issues that may cause them to be removed is specifically a function of the Committee according to the program. If a Scoutmasters program does not fit our needs I do expect the CC to gather the information and tell me what the issues are and also give me an opinion as to what should be done. The reality is if the CC is a good one, I will not have reason to question them and the judgement of the Committee and I will simply sign off as they request. In the years that I have been doing this, there is only one time that I have overridden a Committee decision and that was in choosing a CM about 5 years ago. The Committee had narrowed its choices to two experienced ACM's but I felt that one was too "dry", he was a military type and "did not put up with crap" and the other was jovial and fun so the kids loved him but he was disorganized. My pick was a relatively new father that I had camped with a few times who had just become another ACM. He has been with us for quite a while now and proved to be the best choice by far. He is our SM now and I think he's one of the best. I only mention all of this to point out that the Committee does have "power" to hire/fire and dictate program and there are also times that the CO may take part in the process but if the right people are in place it will work as it should and the Committee and the program leaders will be working in unison. There are times when the boys want to do something and teh committee has to tell them that they can't (maybe age related or actually beyond possibility) but usually the Committee helps the boys achieve their goals by providing the support they may need to accomplish things. For example, our Troop does a regular pancake breakfast and it is a Troop Committee member that has the food handling permit because a youth can't. The Troop Committee also handles transportation, equipment acquisition, facilities etc... The Troop Committee also acts as a liason between the CO, the parents and the youth program. The Committee plays goalie to help prevent the parents or CO from running the program (I know it is hard to believe, but some parents are stuck on advancement to the exclusion of all else!). There are also some things that the CO may require that the Committee makes sure happens such as unit participation in local events or service to the CO. On their own, the kids may elect to skip putting flags in the cemetary on Memorial day but the CO requires it and the Committee makes sure it is on the schedule and somebody shows up. Yes, the kids "run" the program but along with that comes some responsibilities that they may not choose to honor so the Committee has to make sure it is taken care of. I have to say that the Committee does a lot more than most realize if everything is working properly and a big part of that is the "than most realize" because if it is done properly it will be handled through the SPL and the PLC and should be invisible to the rest of the unit. I believe that the CC and the SM will make some decisions and then the SM will discuss those with the SPL and if the right people are doing what they should then the end result will be things getting done and the boys taking credit for doing it because "they choose to do it" not because they were told to do it.

Sorry, got to agree with SeattlePioneer, the reasoning for not completing what you started is faulty. Maybe you had a lousy Troop and you would have had to be LG all the time but I can't imagine ever doing that to a boy. Even if nobody else was certified, I would never make a boy do it just because he was certified. If the boy said "I just want to swim, not be stuck watching everybody" I would understand but going 99% of the way and quitting is still quitting and I try really hard to teach the boys to not be quitters. JMO

I am with ScoutNut on this one, it is an adult recognition of the youth. I will tell you that our boys conduct our COH's but I do see it as more than the boys getting rank or MB's. It is a very public and special recognition of the effort the boys have put forth and they deserve to know that the adults consider it an honor to do it for them. Our troop has done it both ways but I really do see more positive reaction from the boys when the adults are the ones investing the time. Now, don't get me wrong, I am not saying it should be the boys on one side and the adults on the other, I am saying that a COH can have a heck of a lot of impact if the adults are handling it right and making it about the boys and not about the adults who organize it. I have organized several COH's where the PLC MC's the event but the adults took care of the food, the agenda and the recognition. Some of the adults will get up and give speeches (dignitaries, SM, IH or COR etc...) and some will be serving the boys food etc... but the whole while the SPL or whichever boy is MC'ing follows the agenda and/or program that has been supplied by the adults. The youth do have input and no planning should be done without the PLC's input, but dang, lets put them up on a pedestal for their efforts and publicly let everyone know we are proud of the boys efforts. JMO, Your mileage may vary

I haven't posted on this because it is an issue I hate but after reading all the posts I realized that there are a lot of you guys that are like me and didn't understand why bylaws and such are important. I never cared, we usually operate by consensus and had an issue until last year when an adult brought their son to our unit from another unit. We started having problems and the reality is the bylaws were specific and covered every accusation this person made against us. I joined this forum at that time and was beside myself with frustration over the obvious lies and falshoods being spread but had no understanding of how to deal with it. Fortunately both the DE and SE were aware of what was going on and asked about bylaws. Although I knew they existed, I hadn't thought to look to them or understood the need but at the time I read them again (it had been a few years). The reality is the people who wrote them were smart enough to recognize that somebody somewhere and somewhen would decide they did not like the way things were done and would cause problems. The bylaws were even specific to the points brought up and the committee was well covered and well within guidelines set forth by the bylaws. I now realize that bylaws are not for the individual but for the group and well written ones do protect the unit from outsiders who decide to try and dictate an agenda. Subterfuge can be quite an issue and having bylaws that pre-empt certain actions and activities are a way that a CO protects its unit from making decisions that are not in the best interest of the CO and the unit. The bylaws are basically the rules of the BSA merged with the CO's expectations of the unit. Ours are written so they can only be changed with approval and a vote by the CO's executive board which has also been tested by committees over time. Usually changes that are suggested are considered and may be enacted but there have been times when the changes were not to the CO's benefit and were being brought forth by people who wanted to "take charge" and were not happy that somebody could say no (it may come as a shock to a new CC who has never been involved at that level). I was reading the thread on removing the CC and this immediately came to mind as it is laid out in BSA information but it is also explicitely spelled out in our bylaws. We actually had a committee who decided that they needed a new COR. I am not sure what their thought was although it may have been wanted to have a COR with a child in the unit, but whatever the reason, it was pointed out how it is done with the bylaws. At that point they were going to change the bylaws until it was pointed out they could not do that either because it really would not have been in teh best interest of the CO. The long and the short of it is these people are gone now and the unit has survived them and the CO is pleased to have a healthy and happy unit that continues on despite the normal turnover related to a Cub unit. I say yes, you need bylaws but no, they don't need to be 58 pages of minutiae. The bylaws should primarily dictate stuff not covered by the BSA like money handling, youth accounts, actions and responsibilites related to the CO etc... not stuff like advancement policy or things that dictate regular meetings. I did not know it (probably didn't pay any attention when I first joined) but our bylaws dictated that we maintain a used uniform library. I have been doing this for years but never knew we were "suppose to". It can be a very helpful document for a new leader taking over or even for a parent just joining that does not understand why things are done the way they are. There are lots of ideas and perspectives and some really benefit the youth while others benefit the CO. The best balance is to benefit all as much as possible.Finally, one thing the bylaws needs to address are assets. I have known of committees plundering equipment to pay for program. That is usually short sighted and causes grief later. Our bylaws require CO approval for any functional or reparable equipment disposal. We have sold off stuff but our CO has acquired two pinewood derby tracks for us and several times it has been suggested to sell the second but the CO has it for a reason and it is interesting when the subject has come up. Sorry for going on but "been there, done that".

I have never had need to "impliment better burning". Flags laid gently in the fire burn just fine whether they are folded or open. I see no need to desecrate the flag to retire it. Just my opinion, but as I noted, as long as it is done respectfully it is acceptable. I personally just don't see cutting it up as respectful.

I strongly agree with KC9DDI, there is not "A" correct way to show respect, there are a lot of ways. Even within our military it can be, and is, done in different ways. Anybody who says there is only one way is really missing the point. The law is very un-specific and for most of it the law pretty much only indicates that the flag be handled respectfully. I will give you a perfect example that I mentioned in the other thread I responded to, retirement done by cutting the flag. I find that idea abhorent and consider it desecration of the flag. I think it is disrespectful to make rags from a flag so that it is no longer a flag. That was why I was having such a difficult time a few weeks ago when we were discussing retiring a large flag. My son and I really did not want to cut it up because we think it is horrible to do that. Others will disagree and I sit quietly while they do it their way but I would never suggest to anybody that it is a good way to do it. Opinions are good but don't mistake them for rules or laws.

As several people here have noted, there is nothing wrong with a flag folded in a rectangle. A flag folded into a triangle is not folded "right" it is just folded that way. There is no law or rule that governs folding a flag and the triangle fold is simply one way to do it that apparently originated in the military to symbolize a solemn occassion and has become the popular and traditional way to do it not the required way. More often that not, the flag is folded into a triangle because the people doing it don't know better and "know" it is the right way to do it without actually knowing teh history and reasons. Folding the flag into a triangle is simply a way to make a show of it and to make the process more complex so that it is more solemn and ceremonial. Flag retirement is also often misunderstood in the same way (I can't tell you how many times I have been breated for not cutting a flag up before retiring it!).

From United-States-Flag.com: The American Flag may be folded for a number of reasons. Since the Flag Code specifies that the flag should not be carried flat, folding the flag may be necessary for transportation, storage or display. The flag is also folded by members of the Armed Forces after it is lifted from a casket at a military funeral. It is then given to the next of kin.

The Flag Code does not specify how the flag should be folded, but a standard flag will require thirteen folds. To specify there should be two lengthwise folds and eleven triangular folds.

When folding the flag in this manner gained popularity, there wasn't a symbolic meaning associated with the folds. Through the years, the public has attributed meaning to each fold. Most of these meanings are religious, and all of them reflect the ideals of this country.

There is a lot of confusion about flag folding. So much so that Snopes even has a page. From Snopes: Origins: This item about the meanings of the folds in a flag reminds me of a joke told by deadpan comedian Steven Wright: "Why is the alphabet in that order? Is it because of that song?" As often happens, a "meaning" has been grafted onto some facet of everyday life, to the point that the symbolic, after the fact meaning has been confused with the original purpose.

Traditional flag etiquette prescribes that before an American flag is stored or presented, its handlers should twice fold it in half lengthwise; then (from the end opposite the blue field) make a triangular fold, continuing to fold it in triangles until the other end is reached. This makes a triangular "pillow" of the flag with only the blue starred field showing on the outside, and it takes thirteen folds to produce: two lengthwise folds and eleven triangular ones.

The American flag isn't folded in this manner because each of the folds has a special symbolic meaning; the flag is folded this way because it provides a dignified ceremonial touch that distinguishes folding a flag from folding an ordinary object such as a bedsheet, and because it results a visually pleasing, easy-to-handle shape. This thirteen-fold procedure was a common practice long before the creation of a ceremonial assignation of "meaning" to each of the steps.

An elaborate flag folding ceremony incorporating these meanings has since been devised for special occasions such as Memorial Day and Veterans Day. These associations are "real" in the sense that they mean something to the people who participate in the ceremony, but they are not the reason why a flag is folded in the traditional thirteen-step manner. As was the case with the candy cane an invented (religious) symbolism has become so widespread that it is now often mistakenly assumed to have been an integral part of the origins of the item it is associated with.

It is also a common misbelief that the above-quoted script originated with the U.S. Air Force (USAF) and is used by default at all veterans' funerals conducted under the aegis of the U.S. military. This is not the case, as the USAF has noted:

Though there are no official ceremonies in the Air Force that require a script to be read when a flag is folded, unofficial ceremonies such as retirements often do, said Lt. Col. Samuel Hudspath, Air Force protocol chief.

"We have had a tradition within the Air Force of individuals requesting that a flag be folded, with words, at their retirement ceremony," he said.

There is no shortage of scripts available that can be read aloud during a flag folding, but many of those scripts are religious in nature and also ascribe meaning to the individual folds put into the flag. One of the oldest of those scripts is attributed to an anonymous chaplain at the U.S. Air Force Academy.

Individuals who hear those scripts end up attributing the contents of the script to the U.S. Air Force. But the reality is that neither Congress, nor federal laws related to the flag, assign any special meaning to the individual folds.

Flag folding history:

FLAG FOLDING HISTORY

By Rick W. Sturdevant

Deputy Command Historian

HQ Air Force Space Command

23 July 2003

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I first was asked this question over a decade ago and I have been researching it ever since. Among the dozens of web sites devoted to the flag-folding ceremony, here is one [there used to be two but the other is now offline] worth perusing: http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/more/folds.htm. One of the first things you will notice is that the sites differ on the symbolic meaning of each fold. The latter site credits the USAF Academy with assigning symbolic significance to each fold [this can be found here: Original Flag Folding - 13 Folds of the US Flag].

As for the origin and significance of the triangular or "cocked hat" fold itself, several years ago I contacted a local flag expert who suggested that the triangular fold might have originated in the days of wooden sailing vessels. He explained that ships like the Constitution or Constellation would close with the enemy, waiting until the last minute to hoist the colors and "breaking" them at the peak. While it is true that many flag hoisting traditions around the globe have naval origins, most of these were eschewed by American revolutionaries at the country's founding. Traditionally, the US flag is never hoisted to the peak folded but, rather, flying freely in full view. Consequently, the naval "story," though often repeated, seems apocryphal. If it were true, why wouldn't other seafaring nations, especially Great Britain, have used a similar fold when their ships closed for combat?

The use of the triangular fold came much later than the 1770s. It seems the custom originated after the Spanish American War. We had gained far-flung Navy and Army bases, where it became customary to fly larger and larger flags. A need arose for folding the flag efficiently to facilitate hoisting the next morning. Before the evolution and adoption of the triangle fold each base, and ships, were free to fold the flag whatever way they wanted. The fold made handling large flags easier. By the early 1900s, both the Army and the Navy were using the triangular fold. After 1910 the Boy Scouts of America also popularized the practice. In addition, soldiers and sailors returning from WWI helped transfer the "military" fold to civilian use. At first, the fold simply was practical, but patriotic orators later added the symbolism of the cocked hat to pay homage to Revolutionary War soldiers. This symbolism was updated to include Revolutionary marines, even though they wore a hat with one side of the brim pinned "Aussie" style. Sailors during the American Revolution had to provide their own hats, which makes it conceivable that they, too, might have worn the cocked hat.

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