gwd-scouter

Game has started. Don't really care who wins. Usually just watch to see who sings the National Anthem and for the commercials.

My opinion - Absolutely the worst performance of the National Anthem that I've ever heard.

OGE - yes, of course, there are people alive today that survived Nazi concentration camps and witnessed Pearl Harbor. Not suggesting there aren't. I also am not suggesting that anyone ever forget those tragedies or those that happened more recently.

I was only suggesting that 9/11 is still too fresh in people's memory and that the distance of time might make it easier for people to watch a news program or documentary showing the towers falling.

I've heard some people say they get upset seeing the images of the twin towers falling, but am not aware of any real controversy.

I remember, vaguely, a time when people were upset over the challenger disaster being shown over and over again.

I wonder if the distance of time makes a difference? No one seems upset these days over pictures of Pearl Harbor or Nazi concentration camps.

Although not "real" but accurately portrayed, highly-rated movie productions such as Band of Brothers and Saving Private Ryan depict events in which many more people were killed, but I've never heard any outcry of emotion over showing these images.

Perhaps the reason no one gets upset over images from Pearl Harbor and the like is because they are from events that happened several generations ago and are not still fresh in our memory.

I imagine that in a decade or two, 9/11 will become an event of more historical significance than personal tragedy and the images from that day more easily watched.

OK. In reading a charter renewal, first point on CO side says:

Conduct the Scouting program according to its own policies and guidelines as well as those of the Boy Scouts of America.

So, I guess that means a CO can restrict membership in the Troop, even though the BSA cannot restrict membership based on a boy's particular religeon.

Let me restate my question then. How many of you run your Troop in accordance with your CO mission or religeous customs. And, if you do follow CO religeous custom, do you screen new Scouts?

(This message has been edited by gwd-scouter)

Our Troop is small - 12 boys. It's been around for 8 years and the largest it's been is 16 boys. We have always had trouble recruiting. Our feeder Pack has never been well organized and usually has to start over every year. Last year we got one Scout - this year we aren't getting any.

We have two very large Troops in town. One fed by a huge Pack, the other by the YMCA. The other Troops and Packs are small and have similar recruiting/organization problems that we do.

I was Cubmaster of that huge Pack (100+ boys) and loved it. However, when my oldest crossed over to the large Troop, he felt lost in the mix. So, he transferred to the smaller Troop that my youngest and I are involved with now.

I have often heard from parents that their boys join the large Packs and Troops because they feel these units must be doing something right to be so big. Many times, our smaller units aren't even given a "look see" because families think they are small because they aren't a good unit.

Having a small Troop does allow us to go anywhere we want and never poses a transportation problem. However, it is difficult to consistently use the Patrol Method when we only have 50% turnout for a campout (5-6 Scouts is the norm). On the plus side, patrols of 3 Scouts does require them to work together more and get more practice in cooking, cleaning, planning, etc.

A small Troop also allows all the Scouts to have a POR almost all the time. The younger Scouts usually have the less demanding POR which gives them experience for when they are older and take on the more demanding POR such as SPL and Troop Guide. In our small Troop, everyone has a job to do so no one feels like he is just along for the ride.

The biggest downside to our small troop is adult leadership. We only have 3 active adults that go to meetings, but only 2 (husband and I) go on outings every month. We've had to schedule all our monthly campouts around my husband's schedule to make sure we have enough adults. I would certainly like to see our Troop grow a bit - perhaps to about 20 Scouts - and hope we can get more adult leadership to help share the load.

I know that a church charter organization cannot require its Troop members to also be members of the church, but can it require the Troop to follow its teachings/beliefs (i.e., prayers at meetings, Sunday service during a campout, etc.).

I would like to add one more thing - about the Pledge.

When you recite it, do you pause after saying "one Nation......Under God.

No comma in the actual legal (Congress approved) version. Should be said with one fluid sentence

One Nation under God, - all one sentence, no pause

Indivisible,

With liberty and justice for all.

Not like we all learned to say and most of us still say it:

One Nation,

Under God,

Indivisible,

etc. etc.

The Scouters in my District and Council are making an effort (at leader trainings, district and council camporees): if you're going to recite the Pledge (as is written now), at least do it correctly.

Only have one thing to add to this discussion. About the Pledge and "liberals" trying to take Under God out of it.

It wasn't there in the first place!

Original Pledge:

Frances Bellamy in 1892, as Chairman of the National Education Association prepared a program for public school celebration of Columbus Day. He structured this public school program around a flag raising ceremony and a flag salute. As he called it, his "Pledge of Allegiance."

"I pledge allegiance to my Flag and (to*) the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." [ * 'to' added later in in October, 1892. ]

He considered placing the word, 'equality,' in his Pledge, but knew that the state superintendents of education on his committee were against equality for women and African Americans.

In 1923 and 1924 the National Flag Conference, under the leadership of the American Legion and the Daughters of the American Revolution, changed the Pledge's words, "my Flag" to "the Flag of the United States of America."

In 1940, the Supreme Court ruled (Globitis decision) that schools can "compel" students to recite the Pledge.

The U.S. Congress recognized the Pledge officially in 1942.

In 1943, the Supreme Court overturned Gobitis and ruled in its Barnette decision that school children could not be forced to recite the Pledge as a part of their school day routine.

(WOW, way back in 1943! - and it didn't even mention GOD yet.)

In 1954, Congress after a campaign by the Knights of Columbus, added the words "under God"' to the Pledge.

After that, The Pledge became both a patriotic oath and a public prayer.

Does your troop Committee (or other leaders) help an Eagle plan his ceremony?

My son earned his Eagle in 2001 and we were completely in the dark about planning a ceremony. No one in the Troop offered any help, just said "it's your ceremony, do whatever you want."

I know the Scout can have whatever kind of ceremony he wants, wherever he wants, etc. etc.

My question is simply, how many of you out there have Troops that actually help and work with the scout in the planning (i.e., script, location, speakers, food, etc.). And, if you do help, what kind of help?

Just received the Eagle Scout awards for our Troop's newest Eagle and I noticed that the pins are different than those my son earned in 2001.

The mother's pin is round instead of Eagle shaped.

Also, there is a gold mentor pin included now. Am assuming the Eagle Scout awards the mentor pin to whomever he likes. Is that right? Is that done during an Eagle Ceremony?

Heading to Camp Old Indian Scout Reservation, South Carolina. A few scouts working on Adventure to Eagle, hopefully we'll get a few new Scouts this spring and they'll do the Pathfinder Program. Others will have their choice of activities and merit badges to fill up their time. Been to COI for many many years and always have a great time!

Lisa'bob.

I think it's universally true that there are those dedicated Scouters out there that hold more than one position and actually do them all well.

Then again, there are those Scouters that hold multiple positions that do poorly at all of them.

I've seen both. Those that hold muliple jobs and do them well are usually doing it for the Scouts. Those that hold multiple jobs and do them poorly, are usually in it for themselves (just another knot on their uniform).

Perhaps your returning leader simply wants to see the pack succeed and is offering his help - you say the pack hasn't had a Committee Chair since May.

Yes, the Committee Chair is an important position. Has there been any kind of politics going on that might put him in a position to get rid of someone in a leadership position? Not trying to start an argument here, just a question.

As an addition, I did go to Scoutmaster Outdoor Leader Skills last year and attended a class on lightweight stoves. But, it was all show and tell with no real demonstration as to their abilities.

So, I've found so much wonderful info on this forum, I figured I'd ask to find out more about all the different stoves.

Thanks guys for responding. I guess my question was too open ended. That's simply because of my lack of knowledge. The only experience I have with a backpack stove is the one my oldest son won as an award from his Troop for selling popcorn. The type that screws on to a small propane bottle. He always said it was cumbersome to carry the propane bottle and he could never tell when the bottle was close to empty.

Oldest son was part of a troop that did a lot of backpacking, but he left after a couple of year to join a different troop. That is the Troop his younger brother and I are now a part of. This Troop has never really done any backpacking. One trip a year is it. And, that has never been attended by many Scouts. Two years ago, youngest son went on the trip using oldest son's stove. He didn't like it much either.

So, that's why I'm now asking about stove. We are a young troop - 8 years old and I am it's 5th Scoutmaster and only in the job for a year.

Troop hs been seriously into car camping with a huge trailer and enough equipment for 3 patrols, yet we only have 10 Scouts (at one time the Troop had about 16 at most).

So, the Scouts have said they want to do more backpacking. Thus, my question. We don't need a huge supply of stoves, but I do think it's important to find out about them, different merits of each, and be able to present that to the Scouts so they could make a decision on what would work best for them.

I would say for such an inexperienced bunch, that we will not be going backpacking in freezing temperatures or high-altitudes, or for more than an overnight, not yet anyway. We need to start out slow and build up to the 50 milers I hear so many other troops take.

We have a local backpacking outfitter that has recommended teaching the Scouts to build an alcohol stove. They say it doesn't burn as hot as others, but it is light, compact, and the Scouts would have fun building their own. Have you any experience with alcohol stoves?

A note about fuel: please explain what people mean when they tell me that Scouts can't use white fuel. I can't seem to find anything in the GTSS that says anything other than Scouts must be supervised when lighting stoves. And, what exactly is white fuel? (I know, I must sound very stupid)

Any advice anyone can give would be greatly appreciated.

Lisabob. Must agree with the posts already given. If someone wants to volunteer, unless there is some underlying reason to deny them, I would say welcome aboard. It is so hard to find volunteers!

Of course, it really depends on why the former leader wants to return. You say you have a specific situation in mind. Without knowing the particulars, it is difficult (at least for me) to give anything but a positive answer to accepting the returning cub leader.

Now, if that cub leader showed poor judgement in his/her past duties, didn't get along with others, etc. etc., then maybe there would be reason to say no.

I have had an experience where a volunteer returned after a few years and was a bit difficult because changes (improvements) had been made in the operations of the Pack and he kept saying "that's not how we used to do it." That's an instance where a returning leader could be a drawback.

One of the things I really liked about my years in cubs was the regular change in leadership that brought new enthusiasm and new ideas to the Pack.

I miss that sometimes, now that I'm in Boy Scouts.

I have held many position in Scouts over the years, some at the same time.

I have a yellow blouse for Cubscouting (retired for a few years now, but it does get pulled out now and again if I'm asked to help out a new Pack)and a tan shirt for Boy Scouting and District functions.

While Cubmaster and Cub Scout Resident Camp Director, I always wore the yellow blouse. At the same time, I was also District Training Chair and Troop Committee member and wore the tan shirt for those functions.

I never bothered with the silver loops while District Trainer since I never wore the District Committee patch. Simply wore the tan shirt with red loops for my position as Troop Committee.

I guess it just didn't seem that important to me that everyone know by looking at my uniform that I was on the District Committee and not "just" a Troop Committee member.

There are many of us out there that serve in multiple positions within the different Scout programs. And, while I do agree that if you are wearing a District Committee, Commissioner, etc. patch on your sleeve you should wear the silver loops and no unit number, I don't think anyone would care very much if you wear whatever your primary responsibility is while performing some other function. (At least, I wouldn't bother me).

Hello repelsteeltje - welcome to the forums. I took a look at some of the pictures on your website. It seems Scouts will be Scouts no matter where they are from - having good times together.

I also noticed that your groups seem to have boys and girls together at all age levels. Is this true? Our organization (USA) is for boys only in Cubscouts and in Boy Scout Troops. We do have coed Units called Venture Crews for boys and girls aged 14-21.

Looking forward to reading your posts and learning more about Scouting in Holland.

Scouter4321

How are things working out with our Troop? Hope you've found some words of wisdom on this Forum.

It's been 2 months since I last posted to this topic and wanted to give an update on progress of the Troop becoming more boy run.

In December, the PLC planned and carried out their first completely boy run Court of Honor. Great job done by all. The only adult part was mine at the end when I did a SM minute.

This month, they've been planning their cold weather camping trip. 1st week, Patrols got together to suggest what they'd like to see done at the campout. Then, 2nd week PLC put ideas together and Scouts voted settling on two main events - targeted advancements for Scouts not yet at 1st class on Saturday morning and Orienteering for everyone in the afternoon. Asst. SPL wrote out a schedule of times and those older Scouts responsible for each particular instruction.

Next week, they plan to make out their meal plans and duty roster for cooking, cleanup etc.

So far, for 3 weeks the only thing I've done is ... well not much really. Can't wait to go on the trip and see how all their plans work out.

Over the year I kept sharing my vision with the Scouts of what I thought our Troop should be and what part I will play in getting us there - "train them, trust them, let them lead."

At first this was met with great resistance - that's not how we did it before, SM _______ always did that for us, etc. But, they seem to be coming around to the idea at last!

Making their own yearly plan for outings for the first time, first Scout planned Court of Honor, and now first entirely Scout planned campout coming up. That to me is a significant change in just one year. But, I know we still have a long way to go.

The experience I've had this past year has taught me many things. Most importantly, I tell remind myself each week that as their Scoutmaster I will:

- follow through with what I say I'm going to do (or, don't make promises you can't or don't intend to keep)

- be consistent and fair

- be prepared to let them make mistakes (as long as safety is not an issue)

Our Troop has had By-Laws since it's inception in 1998, but no success in enforcing them. The Troop was started by a leader from another Troop (that had By-laws). So, naturally, he used their By-Laws and modified them a bit for the new Troop. All the Scouts were required to sign along with their parents. Couple years later, by-laws were modified slightly and signed again. Then, I took over as SM last year and modified By-laws again. Never at any time did the Scouts have any input on this - it was all done by the adult leaders.

The main reason I continued enforcing the by-laws was because that's what I'd seen done by many Scoutmasters with many more years of experience than I, hadn't been to training yet, so I figured they knew what they were doing.

Now, a year later, by-laws are a bygone memory and Scouts are beginning to do on their own what the adults were trying to force them to do by making by-laws - attendance is up, uniforming is improved, boy led/run is beginning to take hold.

And, regarding Scouts not advancing - we have a couple of them too. So what. They are enjoying themselves, are respectful of other Scouts and leaders and attend meetings and outings when their schedules permit. The oldest (almost 18 and a 1st class since 2001), goes to summer camp every year, has worked there for the past 2 and plan to again this summer, and is one of the best mentors to young Scouts in our troop. Just never really interested in merit badges or position of responsibility in order to advance.

As far as dues and using by-laws as a way to make the parents understand the circumstances of not paying, A monthly newsletter, email list, etc. can be used as a way to bring things like that to a parent's attention, (i.e., don't forget - it's time for Johnny Scout to pay dues). I think it's more important to remind Johnny Scout himself to pay rather than have hard and fast rule that says to a parent - your Scout won't receive a badge if you don't pay.

My 2 cents worth.

Interesting...I'm glad I'm not in charge of determining how many months must go by before someone can truly show remorse or a change in character.

An avatar is a small picture, sometimes animated, used to represent yourself when you're online. See them a lot with instant messaging.

Just beginning my 2nd year as Scoutmaster and because of these forums I am also beginning to regularly use a SM minute at the close of our weekly meetings.

I was reluctant to do a SM minute since I was barely staying above water this past year trying to reorganize and keep our troop going. And, I didn't have a lot of confidence in my ability to say something meaningful that didn't come across as contrived or pithy.

But, your contributions to the SM Minutes have given me plenty of materials to use.

For the past couple of months, I have tried to find a minute that fits in with what the Scouts are currently working on or things I hear them talking about.

At first, the Scouts thought they were amusing and not sure what to make of my "closing comments." Then they started to say things like "oh wow" or "never thought of it that way." Now, they expect it and all gather in the circle looking at me, quietly waiting for me to say my minute before they do their traditional closing.

Thank you all. Hopefully, someday, I'll have my own minute to contribute!

Lynda J - what a wonderful post! We can all be reminded from time to time that everyone deserves a second chance. Had a young man in our troop who was arrested (misdemeanor) several months before he was to finish his Eagle Project. The story was in the local paper so news spread quickly. Was told by some scouters that I should tell him to give it up - he would never make Eagle. Then, there were others who said give him a chance to overcome his mistake.

Overcome it he did. He came in front of all the Scouts in the troop and told them what he had done (on his own, no one told him he had to do that). Told them the consequences he was facing and answered their questions.

Then, he went on to finish his project, complete his merit badges, finish his paperwork and have SM conf and BOR. Very impressive young man - well-spoken, well-intentioned, etc. - who made a stupid mistake.

Passed his BOR and we are waiting for him to complete plans for his Court of Honor.

I think we are all guilty of doing stupid things when we are young, some probably illegal (I'm sure some of you are exceptions). Hopefully, those youthful indiscretions did not define us as the adult we became, anymore than the Scouts being discussed here will be known forever by their misdeeds.

Was wondering if any of you have favorites/recommendations for lightweight camp stoves for backpacking.

Calico - your post is the most clearly stated explanation of how to stay warm on winter campouts I've seen. May I borrow please for our Troop's upcoming cold weather trip?