Gold Winger

"And the Code still does not "allow" for patch and pin replicas of the flag so it's rather irrelevant where they are "worn". "

I'd like to know what sort of "flag code" you're reading.

TITLE 4 CHAPTER 1 8 (j) . . . However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations . . .Therefore, the lapel flag pin being a replica, should be worn on the left lapel near the heart.

Looks like the "patch" is allowed as are pins.

I'm still waiting for an example of how the military doesn't follow the flag code. It's kinda impossible since 10 says that the President can modify rules or customs at a whim. So if the DOD wants to wear their flag backwards, they can because the Prez. okayed it.

"I hadn't realized the role PORs played in forcing this stupid process of replacing one unskilled, untrained leader with another one who's even worse, but your explanation makes sense of both what I've seen and what I've read."

Once again, it isn't the program but the implementation of the program that is at fault which is mostly due to the actions of the adults.

For good or bad, most of us wanted to be in charge of something back in the wonder years. Captain of the pick-up team. Head altar boy. President of the 6th street gang. So that rolled over to Scouts and a boy would look up to his Patrol Leader and say, "I want to do that someday."

Today, it seems that few ever want to be in charge of anything (let's not get into a discussion of servant leaders not being in charge, I read the book and it never says that). Flat out, they don't want to do stuff. Watching troops in action, I've seen that most often the PL is the boy who "needs a turn" or "no one else wanted the job." Few ever say, "When I'm PL we're going to do . . ." or "I want to be PL to help my patrol win at Camporee this year." The same applies for SPL and any other POR. If you get an honest answer about why they wanted the job, it's "so I can advance." Why do you want to advance? "My father wants me to get Eagle."

I'm not an old Scout but I know quite a few and their stories are all similar. Before the overinvolvement of parents and back when children lived without constant interference of their parents, things were different. My son's old Scoutmaster was PL of his patrol for three years. Why? He liked the job and his patrol liked him. He wanted to move up to SPL but lost to the incumbent. I worked with a fellow who never made Eagle but stayed in Scouting through high school. He was the patrol leader of the misfit patrol for four years. That's what he called it. All the guys that weren't wanted by another patrol came to him. They developed an attitude of "we'll show 'em" and won most of the patrol competitions while remaining proud of his misfit status. Today, that could never happen.

You old guys, think back to how much parental involvement went on back in the 60s and 70s. My sources all say it was very little. You didn't see meeting halls filled with adults. Did every patrol have a de facto den leader? Maybe Mr. Smith would use his truck to haul gear to a campout but you didn't have 30 parents going.

The problem isn't the program, it's excessive parental involvement but that is happening to every activity. How many of your codgers had parents who reminded you of every activity and made sure that you get there? I know the most my mother or my friend's mothers would say was "Don't forget that you have xxx at 5" If we needed a ride, we'd better arrange it ourselves. We didn't have 20 parents at baseball practice armed with juice boxes and snacks.

Yeah, I know that I can't turn back the clock but we really need to work hard as we can to let young people learn to be responsible for themselves.

So I guess the idea of an honoable Scout is foreign to you. Why would the BOR have to wait a month?

"That said, all of my Scout hiking in the 80s (Philmont, Susquehannock Trail, and many many shorter backpacking trips) was in a pair of $25 Kmart work boots that I waterproofed myself."

Back in the 80s, your feet were younger AND those $25 work boots were made much better than today's $25 boots.

The comfort and support. If you can find those two in an inexpensive pair of boots, go for it. Just be aware that you might be replacing them much sooner than you'd replace a more expensive pair of boots.

" I do NOT remember President Bush being treated to the kind of personal attacks that continue, or have gotten worse, against Obama."

You never watched Bill Maher, Michael Moore or Chris Rock on the talk show circuit, did you?

"And yes, even the Code states that the US Navy, when asea, during worship services, has the religious flag FLYING above the U.S. Flag. So, yes, the military does it differently."

Then by your own words, the military is following the flag code.

"The Flag Code is an informal guideline for the respectful display and (when appropriate) retirement of US flags. "

It is a very formal guideline, it is a law passed by the Congress of these United States. There even used to be punishment attached to violations of the Flag Code but that was overturned by the Supremes. However, the fact that there is no punishment attached makes it no less a law that should be followed.

Hmmmm . . . isn't it often put forth on this forum that advancement, once the forms are signed, is a fait accompli? If so, can you make the kid go back and re-earn Star and Life? What happens to his project?

Of course, the argument could be made that the Scout should have known that he was a day shy.

"The army does not adhere, nor ever has adhered to the US Flag Code."

That's news to me. I was on a military color guard and the American flag went on the right. I've been to military funerals and they followed the flag code. When does the Army or Navy not follow the flag code?

"The problem with the stimulus checks is that I didn't ask for it, didn't need it and don't want it"

Send it to me, I'll take it and put it to good use.

Royal Navy? They have funny loops on their arms and wiggly stripes not to mention that they wear their ribbons too high up on their chest. Okay, I mentioned it.

"The level of bitterness regarding Obama's victory continues to astound me. "

Unlike the bitterness and vitriol that accompanied Gore's loss to Bush?

"I'm a forty-three year old man, and I think about shooting things (not people....usually). So what?"

Depends on why you want to shoot them. I'm a 50 year old competitive shooter and I think about shooting things to demonstrate my skill and win matches. However, just shooting things to put holes in them is really no different than taking a baseball bat and smashing them. If a boy said, "I'd like to smash all of these windows with a bat" or "I'll make my penguin look like someone smashed it with a bat" would you think it was okay?

Alas, we don't know how the guys who own LL Bean voted or how the guy who would pack your box voted.

I'm with you on the boycott of products based on corporate stances on issues. No Levis or Dockers (owned by Levis). No Valvoline oil. I haven't paid to see a movie in years (free tickets are another matter) mostly because I see no reason to give my money to people whom I wouldn't invite into my home.

The funny thing is that my liberal friends tell me that I'm being silly but they supported the grape and lettuce boycotts so many years ago. I guess it is only silly if you don't agree with the statement being made.

"Well, GW, this is probably a mistake, bit I'll ask you the same question. What's YOUR point?"

Hmmmm . . . you must have missed it while you were ranting but I was answering YOUR question of "Why 21 and not 25?"

You also seemed to have missed the point that the original question was not whether Eagle scouts SHOULD wear their patch after 18 but whether Eagle Scouts SHOULD BE PERMITTED to wear their patch after 18.

I'm like Elliot Ness. As the rules stand, I'm opposed to an over 18 Eagle wearing his patch (with the possible exception of his ECOH) however, if the rules should change, I think that might be a good thing.

Non sequitur

OGE (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

"Suffice to say, their work has come under fire from all of the top professional research groups in psychology and sociology"

Being under fire from "top psychologists and sociologists" gives him credence in my book because those two groups that among the leaders of the PC movement.

What are the terms of this treaty? I did some searching and couldn't find a USA-UK trademark treaty but I did find much about international protection of trademarks and none of that seems to be automatic, you have to file seperate papers for international protection.

If BSA allows military ribbons then folks will want KofC medals allowed and then VFW, AmLegion badges, followed shortly by Elks, Odd Fellows and Toastmasters. What's wrong with police awards? Finally the only organization that would have it's awards permitted on the Scout uniform will be the Aryan League and they'll really be upset because the Black Panthers get to wear theirs.

If BSA allows military ribbons then folks will want KofC medals allowed and then VFW, AmLegion badges, followed shortly by Elks, Odd Fellows and Toastmasters. What's wrong with police awards? Finally the only organization that would have it's awards permitted on the Scout uniform will be the Aryan League and they'll really be upset because the Black Panthers get to wear theirs.

"As a country you need your military force to be similarly dressed or friendly fire incidents will rise in number."

Hmmmmm . . . Marpat, ABU, Navy 'aquaflage', ACU? None are similar except that they have American flags.

"Stargate SG-1 knows that the AF wear special services uniforms while kicking butt on all those off world missions."

And a wide variety of uniforms too. Blue, green, grey, cammo and then the guys on Atlantis wear a whole bunch of different stuff too. Or so the historical documents would indicate.

It could be an indication of a serious problem or it could be just a phase. I'm sure that the professionals will have the "right" answer. Having been a boy who did more than a few disruptive things in my day, "discussions" never had any effect unless they included an element of fear. Fear? Being sent to the principal's office. The call to my mother. Exclusion from the group. Maybe the best thing is to tell the boy that the next time he does it, he'll be sent home and then follow up on it.

"When grandma hemmed the legs, she left them long enough to extend when he grows even taller. But I'm noticing that the leg bottoms have developed a whitish line at the crease where they are turned under.

Obviously, this would show if we extend the legs later on."

Ah, memories of my youth. I grew up in the days when pants were hemmed to not drag on the ground. My mother, like most mothers, would buy my pants a couple inches long at the beginning of the school year and hem them up. Later they become flood pants and after that, she'd let down the bottoms to show the white stripe. Everybody had them back then so there wasn't that much grief except from the kids who weren't growing.

I'm just wondering why he was touching the boys?

I didn't know that a jamboree patch was an award.