Gold Winger

Sure, that's been the case for about 2 zillion years.

The problem that I see is that where previous generations went out and discovered fun or were shown fun by the just slightly older (swimming holes, tree climbing, building go-karts, racing trains, picnics, pick up football, etc.) too many of today's youth expect fun to be delivered to them in a pre-pacakged form: video games, amusement parks, laser tag arenas.

So we look at something and say either "I remember that being fun" or "That looks like it might be fun" and the youth look and just blink and say "huh?"

"1) some schools have banned boy scouts from using their facilities because of boy scouts stance against homosexuality and the like. In fact they don't just ban boy scouts - they ban any organization that does not allow any and all members to join."

Don't think that they can do that and still take any federal money.

"The Boy Scouts of Am"erica Equal Access Act bill states that no school receiving Department of Education funds: shall deny equal access or a fair opportunity to meet to, or discriminate against, any group officially affiliated with the Boy Scouts of America ... that wishes to conduct a meeting within that designated open forum or limited public forum, including denying such access or opportunity or discriminating for reasons based on the membership or leadership criteria or oath of allegiance to God and country of the Boy Scouts of America.

As for the other one, if they're charging all groups the same fees, all you can do is complain to the school board.

However, I've found that there are far better venues for Scout meetings than schools. You don't have to worry about getting busted for carrying a pocket knife in a church or bringing in a buckskinner to talk about frontier life which his trusty Pennsylvania rifle. Schools have been known to do stupid things like have the janitor turn off the lights at a certain time, no matter what.

Back when I was refereeing, the schools all rented their gyms out for recreation basketball. Despite a contract that specified that they couldn't turn off the lights and that the league would pay any overtime for the janitor, at one school the idiot insisted on turning off the lights 9 PM sharp, no matter what. Every week, there'd be an arguement and he'd turn the lights back on and phone calls would be made to the people in charge who'd promise that it wouldn't happen again.

This is off topic but why can't the Scouts meet in schools? Wasn't there a law passed that prohibited schools from blocking out Scouts?

If you want to get right down to it, traditional Scouting is outdated and irrelvant.

Camping? Why camp when you can stay in a hotel?

Hiking? You can see pictures of everything on the internet.

Knots? Don't need them.

Swimming? Way too dangerous.

Fires? Got a stove at the comfort suites hotel.

Cooking? That's why there are restaurants and carry-out places.

Self-reliance? No way, when things go wrong that when you call for the authorities.

Leadership training? No, what we need is MBA style management with a focus on rewards for the management and punisment for the rank and file.

Lashings are great, you can actually make things out of sticks. Like signalling, it is a great feeling when you build something.

Line rescues are dangerous? Reach, throw, row, go. Basic lifesaving, thow a line.

Patrol yells help build team spirit. Patrol flags, if they aren't used maybe you should encourage them.

Merit badges aren't required. If you want a skiing merit badge, design one. Basketry may not be needed but then neither is snow sports. Merit badges are kept based on popularity.(This message has been edited by Gold Winger)

True story. I wasn't a Scout but I did take celestial navigation in college. Couldn't tell right ascention from my azimuth today but one night back in school, I was on a date and we were cruising around late at night in the farmlands of Indiana. Just a long drive, chatting. About 1 AM I decide to head back home but don't know quite where I am. Know that I'm north of cmapus but which way is South.

I stopped the car and got out, fortunately it was a clear night and I spotted the Big Dipper, found Polaris and oriented myself and headed for the barn. Impressed the heck out of the girl.

An irrelevant skill that saved my bacon AND impressed a date. That's a twofer.

What sarcasm?

"However, I am not sure what relevance it has in Boy Scouts. Do Boy Scouts go out in the open water, and have the possibility of falling overboard without being noticed?"

Where is it written that Scouting skills should only be practical in a Scouting context? What if this Scout or former Scout falls off the Staten Island Ferry and no one notices? Or he falls off his grandfather's sail boat in the middle of the Atlantic? It's a handy skill and when you master it, you say, "Hey, I'm cool because I can make a life vest out of my pants."

If we take away the swimming requirement because of the few Scouts who are afraid of the water, why not get rid of camping because of the few Scouts who are afraid of tents? Get rid of hiking because some Scouts have a phobia of hiking?

My son suffers from asthma, maybe we should ban all outdoor activities.

Very profound.

That's just around there. Last I checked it was a standard skill for sailors. If we go with local requirements, for your state you need moose defense.

"grossly outdated.I am referring to . . . Robt.E.Lee Councils"

No wonder it's outdated, Robert E. Lee Council succumbed to PC and ceased to exist about five or six years ago. LOL!

"Which way is the wind blowing to make the sails billow forward and then look at the flag at the back on the boat, which way is it blowing? Backwards? "

Depending on the wind, it could even be blowing sideways.

I'm still waiting for an example of where the armed forces don't follow the flag code.

In BSA there is no position of "Adult Scoutmaster." The Scoutmaster's primary function is to teach leadership skills to the youth leaders. The assistant Scoutmasters (note the lower case "a") assist the Scout master as needed.

Knots are pretty simple things to learn, pretty simple to remember if you learn them well. When do you use knots? If you're climbing, fishing, sailing. What about tying a mattress to the roof of your car. Also, knowing and being able to tie knots gives a person a sense of accomplishment IF IT IS DONE RIGHT.

What if you don't have velcro when you need to tie something to your pack? What knot can you use?

I read a little story by a soldier who said that when is unit deployed the little do-dads to adjust the tent ropes had disappeared. Being a Scouter, he taught his troops to tie the tautline hitch. Irrelevant? Dated? Not anymore than holding the door for someone.

Lots of things have disappeared from the requirements. Signalling. Not vital but fun and useful when your FRS radio dies.

Tracking? Fun and useful.

Fire building isn't relevant because we cook on stoves but know how to light a fire can save a date or even your life.

Dislike? I dislike the watering down of things to the point that they are meaningless.

Only because we let them. Expect more and you'll get more.

You seem to have problems with logic. The code doesn't say that the military doesn't follow the code, the code says that the President can change the rules, so if he changes them that's within the rules.

You still haven't given an example of how the armed forces don't follow the flag code. Wattsamatta? Can't think of one?

"I find it odd that those who take it upon themselves to modify BSA's uniform to suit their own views, would never think of modifying a military uniform . ."

That's because it's only Scouting, nothing important like sports.

Don't like it. Sounds too much like a merit badge university.

I don't think that bad food cooked by dirty boys bothers most boys, my son's patrol was ready to eat ground beef that had started to stink.

"A Scouting history, in which Scouts did real stuff -- first aid, rescue, War Bond collection, etc. -- but a present in which they only pretend to do real stuff, and where Boys' Life recounts "heros" who "called 911" appropriately!"

Unfortunately, much of what Scouts used to do is no longer allowed by the authorities. Carry messages in time of emergency? Radios. Sandbag a collapsing levy? On those over 18 need apply.

"=> Archaic and utterly irrelevant skills from Scouting's past (semaphores) taught badly by adults who never used or really learned them themselves."

Where have you been, semaphore and wig-wag have been gone for decades but they really aren't that irrelevant. Semaphore and wig-wag were eliminated not because they were irrelevant or not fun but because they can't be mastered in a weekend. Semaphore is fun, it's like sign language. I learned it in college along with morse and could send and receive very slowly.

Tracking is also gone but a fun woods skill. What's this the path of? How old is it? Which way did he go?

Knot tying? Once again, reduced to something that can be "mastered" in a weekend. Are most knots relevant? Not with ratcheting tie-downs but mastering an archane skill gives great pleasure to most people. Fire building isn't relevant either but we still teach that.

What we really need to do is kick most of the parent out of the troops and get some of those creepy guys without kids who want to see the kids learn instead of just measuring advancement.

"with a system in which you are STRONGLY encouraged to put someone new in place every six months . . . the program is going to have a big effect."

I don't remember reading anything which stated that a new boy needed to be put into place every six months. That's a local interpretation for the benefit of the pushy parents.

A bigger problem is one that I've commented on before. Boys really don't want to be Boy Scouts. Most are there because their parents push them, that's why parental involvement is so important.

Love that one about the parachute!

However, by following the whims of the President, they are still following the code because the code says that the President can change things. I'm still waiting for an example of how the armed forces don't follow the code.

We're also still waiting for an explanation of how patches are not allowed.

"I have some BL from around 1960. A very large circulation (2.3m.) and you would be surprised at the caliber of authors the magazine had: Yogi Berra (alright!), Arthur C. Clarke and a few others. Of course, the great American magazines suffered by the mid-60s with the increasing popularity of television."

The Boys Life that I remember from my youth was far different from what I see today. :-( It's hard to beat that electronic demon.

There's a reason for that. Knots are pretty cut and dried. Buy the BSA knot book and photocopy the pages. Square knot, overhand, two half hitches, clove hitch and you've got it.

On the other hand, relative improtance of uniforms, flags and such will always generate discussion because we all feel differently.

Try starting a discussion on the importance of teaching knots that are no longer in the book and see how long it goes.

"I don't think Bill Maher, Michael Moore, or Chris Rock represent the views of the majority of American any more than I believe Rush Limbaugh, Anne Coulter, or Sean Hannity do."

Maybe not but the first group are on the late night talk shows and get parrotted by the young crowd on a regular basis. Sadly most of the young people have less of a clue than I do. I recall one young woman (dean's list in education) who worked in Washington DC for a summer who blamed Bush for the traffic jams because he was going to Camp David. I pointed out that he took a helicopter from the White House straight to Camp David to avoid tying up traffic and her response was "that's just stupid."

One important thing to remember is that brands differ in how they fit individuals. I can take just about any pair of 10.5 Nike shoes and they fit like they were made for me. Addidas, never found a pair that worked.

In the refereeing world, Converse is a big name. They even have a shoe called "The Runnin' Ref." Since that shoe is included in many packages for new refs, many refs wear them. Converse just don't fit my feet so I opted to wear Nike shoes for reffing. A common occurance was my partner would ask why I wasn't wearing "official shoes." All that's required is that they are black but there was the perception that Converse were special. I'd say, "they just don't fit." A frequent response to that was "waddaya mean, they fit me just fine!"