Fuzzy Bear

Dan, If I missed your subtle statement, I apologize. I understand that you have your set of beliefs that are real and true for you. Your beliefs are profound and because they are, they are absolute. It just so happens that other people's beliefs that are in Scouting, in the world, in America, in your city and most likely in your own church are just as profound, just as absolute but very different from yours. When we attempt to resolve absolute issues in light of our own absolutes, then it is possible that we will miss the truth that another has in their world and that is my point. Since you have decided on your own answer based on your own set of beliefs for this problem, then your confusion is clear and your question to me is answered. Thanks for your interest. FB

Cliff and Pack, I have to admit that I took the story from a book I read and the guy with the statement was the one with the wisdom you speak of in your reply. I can really only be considered the messenger. FB

Bob, I accept your opinion on this issue. It has good insight and I am sure, well within the boundaries of Scouting. FB

There is this story of this woman that had been caught in the act of adultery. Now, she wasn't looking at a naughty magazine or having a thought experiment but actually doing it. The punishment for such behavior had nothing to do with telling the BSA authorities and being banned from years of volunteer work but with her being stoned to death. Now, that may seem harsh but people that do such things are a menace and would most likely cause others to do the same thing, so it would be best for us all to make an example of her behavior and rid ourselves of her and her ilk. Then a very good thought provoking statement was made. Let the one without sin cast the first stone. Of course, these people were all good law abiding citizens and very religious, highly religious but after just a moments thought (*about their own behaviors), they all left, quietly. Their reaction didn't mean that they condoned her behavior or that they all were involved in the same behavior or that they were all doing things that might be considered worse. It meant that what they saw in her was what they knew was within themselves. They had learned very quickly that judgment is best left to God alone and forgiveness is the very best policy we have on this earth towards one another. When man judges men, the qualities of that judgment are severe and without depth but when God judges it has all of the elements in it that man does not and can never possess. FB

Let me use a different example. A person chops down a cherry tree or a person gets caught red-handed eating the cherries from said tree or a person gets caught lying about either action. Now, the defense would like nothing better than to make it a long sad story but a judge likes to cut to the chase. Yes or no, guilty or not. Reason: The explanation is generally pretty simple when it is dishonesty and most everyone can see it clearly. Second example, A person chops down a cherry tree and has done so for years for fun, firewood, and furniture but nowadays people are up in arms about cutting down trees and it is considered bad manners to do so. It is not dishonesty but being behind the times on chopping down trees that is the issue. When the explanation of what the BSA has or hasnt done takes paragraphs to figure out and it always appears in shades of gray instead of black and white, then most probably it is not at all about honesty or dishonesty but something else like being behind the times. FB

Unc, It is my respect for your silence that I find necessary, especially here. Yes, what you said about the Mennonites, Amish, Wesleyan, etc, means that these young men could be correct in their religious principles and to their God and yet be outwardly opposed to the principles of the BSA. Would it not be in direct opposition to the young man's religion and to his God to make the Scout do otherwise? This would appear to make the BSA stand against God, a curious situation. Bob, just because I am impatient does not make the young man wrong. It makes me less than I should be. As an adult, it is understanding that I seek. His respect will follow. Trev, "Labels are one-dimensional and do not recognize the tremendous complexity of human experience." Bada Bang Bada Boom! I assure you there will be an answer about the Buddhists. Hunt, You are so right about working with a Scout on his good days but I learn the most on those other days. FB

I know that I heard on the 6:00 News that there had been an installation of a high tech smoke stack and furnace which would give a clear and definable wisp of smoke, either white or black upon the election of the new Pope. I am guessing that it did not work as planned or there was Divine intervention, irrespective of modern invention and man's intercession behind locked doors. One is only left to think outside the box on this. As far as Scouting bringing us their version of the same, I am truly thankful they didn't. That leaves us with just one Chief Scout from now on. Of course, if they decided to do it, there would be the High Council of Four-Beaders gathered inside a large white tent at Gillwell pondering what the World of Scouting needs now to bring us together in harmony. They would pick one person and then the other, vote after grueling vote far into the night. Each time somebody lost the vote, they would throw that person head first through the door of the tent and onto the parade grounds. The person would rise red faced and groggy from embarrassment and lack of sleep and stumble off for a nap. People would occasionally cheer because sometimes one of the outcasts, as they will now be called, would arise and look quite fresh and dapper, reason unknown. This, of course, would be a false positive and confusing to the masses huddled around the tent with hot mugs of coffee and red jackets sitting ever so quietly on logs while humming such popular tunes as Michael Rowed his Boat ashore and John Jacob Jinglehimmer Schmidt. After several days, the last one standing would walk out and declare himself the King of Mountain and/or the new Chief Scout of the World. A shout from the crowd would signal the lighting of the bonfire, procession to same, coffee refills, and burnt pancakes all around. FB

Drivers Start Your Engines!

Remember, that the boy's parents AND his religious leader agreed that the boy could not be anything other than what he was from his entry into his religion and/or his faith, no matter what he said he was later. As far as anyone not doing their duty, it was our duty to look beyond his statement to make sure there wasn't something more, like a different perspective, which we found. I would have liked nothing better than to take the young man at his word and let the chips fall where they may but I would have been wrong. The other people on the BOR were careful, appropriate and reasonable with their actions. To impugn them would be short-sighted. These gentlemen could hold their own with any person in Scouting then and today. I was the impatient one, so if there is a lesson to be learned, don't be like me, impatient. NJS, As far as fairness and/or dancing goes, Unc didn't answer my question. I respect his right to silence. Dan didn't answer my questions. I respect his quietness. Rooster has no confusion and needs no answers. I accept that also. Read PS's statement. Obviously, he has been faced with an insoluble question before and instead of answering it from the perspective of one having the absolute answers, (*see Bob White's reaction) PS tried reason. It shows an individual strength of character that is necessary when faced with such difficulties. That is one of the three goals of the BSA and it is important that leaders in this program demonstrate it on a regular basis. FB FB

Mer, The courts are the ones being forced to reflect present day values which is not by a wide margin. When the BSA first chartered public schools and for decades afterwards, it was considered to be appropriate and acceptable by most standards and still is. The BSA's "honesty" should not be called into question because they are not guilty of anything more than being behind the changing times, a far cry from criminal or charges of immorality. The shift out of the public school charters will not take too long and then it will be business as usual. This legal push to right a wrong will ring hollow and waste time and money but that is an American right also. FB

Mer, Now that the BSA has lost the legal challenge and has started to take their Charters elsewhere, they are becoming an honest organization again. There must be dancing in the streets. FB

Well said everybody. After the tenth time it was repeated, I began to see whirling patterns and fell over. I dislike rap music too. Actually, I think that is the intention of the authors. I just wish one of them would sue any one of the others for copyright infringement. It is absolutely the same stuff to the same loud annoying beat done over and over, kind of like... hmmmm. What about this, you're sitting up late at night and RONCO comes on with the best rap songs of the nineties! You are half awake and unable to find the shooter, so you listen dazed in kind of a trance/stupor for the next thirty minutes while they play these loud obnoxious songs with the same bass beat over and over; you find that you are unable to do anything about it. Near the end, you have one hand on the telephone receiver and one hand dialing and then you begin reaching for your credit card after the operator comes on the line. She says, "Thirty bucks please, plus handling and postage." You somehow abruptly come out of it, return to your senses, hang up the phone and discover that it really was just one long loud rap song with many different names. You have finally discovered the secret of rap! It is all the same and was done by one person and that was the reason nobody ever sued. With that knowledge, you feel lighter and more knowing. From that point on, you still hate the sound of it but you can't keep yourself from dancing when you do hear it. (*Life always has trade-offs) OK, the commercial break is over. FB

NJS, I don't see it as a game but if you do and are offended, please accept my apologies. FB Dan, When this happened to me, I was confused also and still do not know the depth of it. You may have heard the term,"Once saved, always saved?" How do you understand that statement? Where do you think it was dervived? FB

Even though there really wasn't a question, I would still like to throw my canteen of water onto this small but uncontrollable fire just for the fun of it. When applying all of the known rules, regulations, procedures, policies, methods, and mission statement to what a Troop is asked to do, I dont have energy enough to do anything else. Of course, after attempting to apply the results of all of the numerous trainings and all of the newest and improved trainings and then all of my reason, experience and knowledge to understand the same, it is kind of overwhelming. Even though I might find it too much, there could be those select few that don't and novelty may become more of a personal passion but even that is not recommended for obvious reasons. I know that this doesn't help but that wasn't what you were looking for anyway. FB

Unc, That is an interesting but incorrect answer. It doesn't match the description. You must have had a similar experience. Do you mind sharing? FB

Dan, Yes, I deliberately left that part of the story out to make a point to another interested practitioner. The individual stated a problem but was not seeking an answer. It was a rouse to make a condemning judgment based on a personal belief. When we are quick to arrive at an answer that on the surface appears to have no other solution, we need to be patient and look ever so slightly underneath the surface because there most probably exists quite a different answer. It is a common flaw for most all of us. It happens when our perspective is warped by absolutes. We fully believe that we know the answer to a problem and we are so impatient for the quick fix when we perceive a paradox that we overlook the obvious. This has happened repeatedly for centuries with religious thought and science which inevitably has lead to persecution of those that have discovered something "new" but is sometimes just a different viewpoint of the same thing. Now for the part left out: The Board of Review consisted of four Christians that almost fell over backwards when the young man stated his belief. We were set for the kill but we withheld our judgment until we checked with his parents and his religious leader. The young man directed his statement towards me because I think he thought I was the easy "mark". He was right and wrong. It was because he set me too far back so I called the recess. During this cool down period we perceived the underlying statement but didn't have a clue of the answer. We found that the young man was perfectly within his religious rights to deny God because it was accepted as a way to grow within his faith. It was a way to express questions and seek answers about God. He was considered to forever be one his fellowship no matter where his thoughts led him. His faith is an old faith, one that takes God quite seriously but also knows the character of youth and gives leeway to their desires to find truth, ask the big questions, expose hypocrisy, and eventually return home. They are quite accepting of such actions because they know and understand God and Man and feel assured and confident that in the end God will capture our heart. I am still amazed. FB

Marge, Marge, Marge, Using these comments to condemn the BSA is not sound based on your inquiry. You have posted 15 times, you may have "lurked" for some time before but for those of us that have read and responded for a few years, for those that have wrestled with these tricky issues of religion, you will see an overwhelming defense of God and the BSA. Consider using patience, instead of judgment in both situations. Reflect back on what you asked for and you will notice that any outsider would need to be very careful in how they answer you. You are directly in the situation and the reader is not where you are. You presented fragmentary information. You said your knowledge is not fragmentary but your information certainly is and even if it wasnt, it should be proved by the observer first. You say that you want somebody to stand "with you" on this issue but that could only be done with very little certitude and be highly inadvisable. I can not speak for others here but I would imagine each of us has walked a similar path as yours. Each one of us has probably had that certain Scout in that strange and unfamiliar situation where our knowledge of how to act was uncertain. You present a situation that cannot be answered in a Black and White way. When dealing with Scouts, you are also dealing with adults and their way of believing. That alone does not give any of us the right to be in charge of all of the answers. It will be tricky at best and you will be the one that will need to take the risk and be willing to be found totally wrong in your approach, which could very easily happen. A few years ago, a young man stated that he was an atheist during his Eagle BOR. He made a point to direct his comment to me. I didn't answer him right away not because I was patient but because I knew he was somehow manipulating me and the Board with his answer. I was certain that my answer to him would be correct without any doubt. The other leaders also were absolutely sure and we all agreed. We recessed for two weeks and spoke with his religious leader and his parents. When we returned, we apologized for our lack of knowledge and he was given his Eagle. We were given credit for doing a good job from people from several counties away (most unusual). Many had heard of our "great" insight and ability at resolving the situation but that was not the case at all. I found it hard to forgive the young man because he had used the situation as a kind of a twisted joke. Finding humor in had to come first. FB

Welcome and please feel free to sit for as long as you want. We are always glad to see another Scouter. FB

I apologize for my misunderstanding of your post. Let me try a different approach. Let's say that you read the statement about God that is on all Scout applications and decided that he was in violation of that statement. What would you do? Let's say that you read the statement about God and decided that he was not in violation and he went to camp with his parents. After he gets to camp, he sets up a stone alter in the woods and begins to slay animals for blood sacrifice. What would you do at that point? Actually the old saying in regards to a quarter had to do with a dime. The cell phone idea is novel, so you must be fairly young. FB

This is a boy-lead program. Hopefully the Scouts are proud of it because they planned, evaluated and documented it. If they think it is a worthwhile goal to increase the size of their Troop, then they need to make the decision about the number. They will also need to discuss the method of achieving their goal. Good Luck comes from Good Work, FB

Who decides and who lobbies? This is a Boy-lead program. Information Gap: Do the Boy leaders know about the District events before they plan their yearly calendar? How are decisions corrected? The Boy leaders evaluate what they do. Qualifier: Can the Committee and the adult leaders support what the Scouts plan to do? FB

Your knowledge of his problems appears to be second hand and fragmentary, so you may have already judged him. The young man is already a "wonderful" Eagle Scout and his parents will be coming with him to camp. You have a signed statement from him but you doubt it's veracity and his trustworthiness. Your request has more to do with his character than religion, which none of us would know about. The end product of Scouting is Character Development, Physical and Mental Fitness, and Participating Citizenship. Try measuring him on these scales first and don't let your confusion be your guide. Also slip another quarter into the paper you gave him. It now takes 50 cents for a call. FB

Anarchist, Yes, you missed my point totally. I understand the world history of slavery and was not implying that America invented it (absurd). I was referring to Thomas Jefferson's words about "all men being created equal". Look carefully at those words. This was the same person that had his own slaves and kept them after he wrote those words, as well as many others that signed the American Declaration of Independence in 1776. Now, it was at the point of writing those words that something could have been done about slavery in America not the world over. It was later debated in the American Constitutional Congress and before but consensus could not be reached. Now, keeping those words should have been considered intellectual dishonesty but it wasnt and that is the reason that it such a curious statement. I attribute those words as being a reference point to a conflict that continued forward in American history. Thomas Jefferson took those words from John Locke (all men being created equal, which might also be considered intellectual dishonesty). J. Locke was an English liberal philosopher who wrote those words in 1690 (?-Second Treatise of Civil Government). Some of this same thinking came from Charles de Secondat, Baron de Montesquieu, The Spirit of the Laws in 1748. Montesquieu was also an opponent of slavery and his writings were used by James Madison, another lifelong slaveholder and theFather of the (United States) Constitution, wrote, If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. In forming a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable government to control the governed, and in the next place oblige it to control itself. (The Federalist Papers- American) It was George Mason another Virginia plantation owner who convinced others, including Madison to include the (American) Bill of Rights, 1791, based on the Virginia Declaration of Rights. John Jay, a wealthy New Yorker and Alexander Hamilton, a person of self-made worth was against slavery and the principle author of the writing of the Federalist papers. It was not until 1868, after the Civil War that the 14th amendment was added. A. Lincoln, a later American President used these same words, "Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal. in his address at Gettysburg, 1863. It ends with, that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedomand that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth. It was at this awful point in American history that something had been done about slavery (in America). Today (in America), we assure the bombarded and vanquished that we do not intend on enslaving them, taking their natural resources or changing their way of living other than giving them freedom. I find this to be an ideal of worth and one based on the principle that all men are created equal FB

anarchist, Your "Bald Faced lie" arrow fell far short of the apple. Since what I said was "accurate" (thanks Vicki:), then try reading a history text. It might give you enough information to rethink your statements. It is good for the soul and will increase your belief that God stands heads and shoulders above all men. FB

The same men that gave us the self-evident truths (*it is the highest of all truth because no other proof is needed), gave us slavery and supported it not only with their ownership but with scripture and with their votes. It is one of the most glorious but curious of statements in history. Could we then in all fairness call that a myth or was it an expectation born of compromise which could only become a debt delayed to be paid over many years and with many lives but never in full? FB