Frank17

I find the adult line hopping curious. I'd be interested to know where it happed as the only place adults were allowed to participate was in the Summit Center. The outlying activity areas were youth only. Early in the first week all the canopy tour lines were limited to curriculum ticket holders both in the action area and in the Summit Center. The zip lines in the center were jammed as much due to lightning and weather as anything.

I second basementdweller. I volunteer all the time for local camps & council events. Not for national where I get charged for the "privilege".

Our Troop allows scouts to wear uniform shirts / neckers with jeans at all events. All SMs are requested to wear the full uniform, as are scouts who are on the verge of becoming eagle. There is a very simple reason for this for us. We want the scouts to look good as a part of our troop without having to waste a lot of cash. As the boys (scouts) generally outgrow their pants every 12 - 24 months, and would require 3 or 4 pairs over their scouting career, we do not require them to have official scout pants. We encourage new scouts to buy the uniform shirts in large sizes so they will last. For adults, the growth factor is less of an issue. Similarly, most of our Eagles are older (HS age), and have fewer growth spurts remaining. Works for us.

 

 

We did option #3 (multiple smaller group bookings via websites) when we went to Philmont last year with 22 participants. Be warned, however, that you will not get the same price for everyone. The airlines seem to use real-time price manipulation based on demand for their particular flights. So when you book one block of 6 reservations (usually the max allowed), the next block of 6 will be a higher price when you try & buy them. You can try & delay booking a few days between blocks, but then you run the risk of getting split up with different flights. We just paid the extra costs and reserved all at once, and then averaged the prices to determine what everyone should pay, regardless of the actual ticket cost. Cost a little more, but still WAYYY cheaper then group booking or even using a travel agent.

There is certainly nothing unethical about ISAs PROVIDED they are run properly. Examples:

 

Johnny goes around selling popcorn to his neighbors telling them that the sale profits will go to fund his troop and his trip to Camp XYZ. The money is used by the troop and for Johnny to attend Camp XYZ - no problem.

 

 

Jimmy goes around selling popcorn to his neighbors telling them that the profits will benefit boy scouts, and be used by the Troop to purchase gear. Instead, the money is used to send him to Camp. - PROBLEM.

 

Basically, there is no problem with ISAs from fundraising provided the stated purpose of the fundraising is disclosed & maintained. Its when excess is collected or the purpose is changed that the ethical issues arise. We DO NOT use ISAs in our troop, but we do allow fundraising for Eagle project costs. In that case, any excess MUST be given to the organization sponsoring the eagle project, or be burned up during the eagle project.

You are correct, excess per se is not a problem. BUT, many of the fundraising issues I see personally come from Eagle projects that raise too much money and dont know how to deal with that. The solution is to donale it to the project sponsoring org, but most Eagle scout candidates do not seem to know this, as it has never been discussed with them. In the context of ISAs and the Troop, as long as the purpose remains the same (collecting for Troop or individual scout), it is not really an issue, I agree.

There is certainly nothing unethical about ISAs PROVIDED they are run properly. Examples:

 

Johnny goes around selling popcorn to his neighbors telling them that the sale profits will go to fund his troop and his trip to Camp XYZ. The money is used by the troop and for Johnny to attend Camp XYZ - no problem.

 

 

Jimmy goes around selling popcorn to his neighbors telling them that the profits will benefit boy scouts, and be used by the Troop to purchase gear. Instead, the money is used to send him to Camp. - PROBLEM.

 

Basically, there is no problem with ISAs from fundraising provided the stated purpose of the fundraising is disclosed & maintained. Its when excess is collected or the purpose is changed that the ethical issues arise. We DO NOT use ISAs in our troop, but we do allow fundraising for Eagle project costs. In that case, any excess MUST be given to the organization sponsoring the eagle project, or be burned up during the eagle project.

Youth Members: 90% of troop membership, 10% of troop problems.

Adults / Parents: 10% of troop membership, 90% of troop problems.

There is an advancement guide that gives additional detail and regulations, but you wont find explainations for most of their actions there.

 

Here is the link for a pdf version: http://boyscouttrail.com/docs/guidet...ment-33088.pdf

 

 

As far as advancement chairs actions:

1. MB requirements / interpretation is to be done by the MB counselor (they may neither add or delete from the MB requirements, but how they teach them is up to them), not the advancement chair or even the SM. If a problem is found, the solution is to approach the MB counselor, NOT penalize the scouts who earned the MBs.

2. Rank requirement, especially for lower ranks, can be signed off on by PLs, SPLs, ASPLs, as long as the SM approves. Again, if there is an issue about how the requirement was taught / tested, it should be brought up to the PL, not the scout. If a problem is found, just retrain the scouts informally, but do not take away their rank.

3. The last 2 issues are clearly wrong, as Troopmaster is in no way, shape or form the "official" record. In fact, the scout handbook and blue cards are the ONLY official records, along with signed advancement forms. At least in our council, ALL electronic records take a back seat to these paper versions, and are tools for organization only, not records themselves.

 

Sounds like your advancement chair is on a micro-management trip. And your scouts are going to suffer because of it. Time to have a sit-down.

Nike said: "I have neither the time nor inclination to spend this much time and effort with my kids. What isn't happening in these parents' lives that they do this?"

 

I second this. My wife & I are way too busy with our own activities (church, scouts, community activities, & social functions) to have time to live our kids' lives too.

 

 

Remember the main purpose of the SM conference is for you to get to know the scout and vice versa. Do not fall into the trap I see a lot of SMs fall into which is to review or test things learned. DO NOT come in with a list of pre-prepared questions; develop your discussion from how the scout reacts and what concerns they may have, not the other way around. Make it a fun conversation for both of you, and not a Q&A. The USSSP has some of the best advice here:

 

http://scoutmaster.org/usscouts/boyscouts/smconf.asp

 

I focused on my Troop:

 

1. Improve advance scheduling and trip planning for the Troop year

2. Recruit additional MB counselors (10) and Committe members (5)

3. Recruit outside speakers to discuss carreers / hobbies / outdoor skills at our meetings monthly

4. Implement Patrol Level campouts and meetings in addition to our normal Troop meetings

5. Provide training for a Troop "Trail to Eagle" program

Blame the scout shops, not the ebay sellers.

 

The "restriction" is based on the sale of original items from the scout shops / scoutstuff.org. It is not based on secondary sales after the item has already been purchased from the BSA stores. The ebay sellers have a legal AND moral right to sell items; after all, collecting / trading / selling scout memorabelia has been going on since scouting started.

 

Now wearing scouting items on a uniform is different; if worn on a uniform, the implication is that they were earned by the wearer, and not just purchased. In that case, the wrong is done by the purchaser / wearer.

 

But as a collector and scouter who has used ebay extensively, I see no issue with selling resticted, rare, or personal scouting items on the site, as long as they are not counterfeits (which happens also).

 

I also got a T-shirt and baseball cap, both with our class WB logo and course number on them. They were considered "Class B" uniform for the course, but now get used for gardening around the house.

"The investigation shows the boys, ages 12-13 from the Mendota, Illinois area, were canoeing with their boy scout troop, which included approximately 14 other scouts and a scout leader."

 

What happened to "1. Qualified Supervision" under Safety Afloat, where a MINIMUM of 2 adults are required, as well as one supervisor per 10 people?(This message has been edited by frank17)

I have purchased a number of old MBs and saches as part of my collection, and most are sewn "Frankenstein style" from the old time sashes (1911 to 1940s). Modern sewing machines and helicopter parents (and the lack of a sewing MB) have led us to let others do for us instead of doing ourself.

I have no issues with Craigslist (I used it to furnish about 1/2 of my new house), but I too agree that advertising this publicly is a bad idea. Seems like they should contact their CO and see if they can get any help there, if the parents are not willing to help. We have also gotten ASMs from former Troop Eagle Scouts that are still in the area.

Wow. Hope this movement stays over there, and does not make inroads into the USA. There are so many other similar groups to GUSA and BSA that it seems silly perople can't find an alternate that does not require the oath to God. I guess sucess and popularity has its price.

We generally do the drill, by calling up the local fire department or hospital service and participating in one of their emergency drills (massive car accident; flood preparation / injuries; large high-rise fire). The scouts enjoy being victims and the emergency providers enjoy teaching the scouts about how they can help and work with emergency services.

 

I can't say I can recommend waiting around until the real emergency shows up to do your service project.

Here is the #1 rule that gets subtracted from the requirements EVERY Summer Camp in our Council:

 

"Summer Camp Merit Badge Counselors:

The same qualifications and rules for merit badge counselors apply to council summer camp merit badge programs. All merit badge counselors must be at least 18 years of age. Camp staff members under age 18 may assist with instruction but cannot serve in the role of the merit badge counselor."

 

Most of our "Counselors" are under-18 scouts who simply read the MB book to the scouts and then stamp the blue card at the end of the week. Our Camp's cards do not even list a MB counselor, just the camp name with no other info.

The short answer is that there is nothing in the OA that is anti-christian.

 

The long answer is that Christian religions often have 2 issues with the OA:

1. Its historic association with Freemasonry, due to LBP supporting it and Goodman being a freemason.

2. The "secrecy" element to the OA and it ceremonies.

 

As far as freemasonry goes, this is primarily a Catholic issue, as the Catholic church has banned association with freemasonry. However, as my local OA lodge uses a catholic priest who is an OA brother at all of its weekend activities and the priest even says Mass at these activities as an option for Catholic scouts, I have to believe the Catholic church does not object to the OA on this grounds. Many service type organizations (including the Knights of Columbus) have their roots in Freemasonry, and it is not a fatal flaw.

 

The "secrecy" element not allowed by BSA but often encouraged in the OA materials (and supported by some OA lodges) is a problem, and often gives parents and others pause as to whether this is am inappropriate organization. There is a whole other thread on this issue, which I will not reproduce here, but suffice to say the "secret" OA ceremonies that some parents are either discouraged or outright banned from attending are a problem. The ceremony itself is no big deal; the secrecy associated with it is, and harms the OA's reputation with religious groupa and parents. The Catholic Church and Penn State abuse scandals should make it clear to everyone why secrecy should not be allowed in situations involving adults & youth. Enough said.

I would not neccessarily expect all board members to be in scouting uniform, but I would expect all board members to be more formally dressed. Having grown up in Virginia in the 60s & 70s, my idea of formal dress is a lot more formal than I generally see here in Pennsylvania in the new Millenium. But, I would expect clothes that are appropriate for the occasion.

 

There are only 2 times I wear my complete uniform (shirt, belt, pants, socks, neckerchief, hat, coat)for scouts: Our Troop COHs and Eagle BORs.

AS SM for out Troop, I see double dipping requests all the time. And there are several ways we allow / disallow them, depending on the request:

1. If the scout requests service hour credit for 2 MBs using the same hours ....NO

2. If the scout requests service hour credit for a MB and a rank using the same hours ...NO, unless there are excess hours to cover both

3. If the scout requests credit for non-Troop service hours IN ADVANCE of the service ...YES

 

We generally allow service to be double counted (for school credit & scout credit) as we feel the scout should get credit for all their helpful deeds, not just ones done by the Troop. However, we generally do not give credit for regular (non-troop) service a scout gives to others after the fact, when they are normally volunteering, without advance credit. Example: Scout has provided service to their church for the past 5 years, for which scout seeks credit after the fact. We approve credit for future service to be counted towards a MB, but not all the past hours. (A minor point but important as many ranks / MBs require spre-approval or ervice hours to be earned after the rank / MB is started.)

 

We have never had a problem staffing service projects. We do have a problem finding enough parents to organize / supervise projects enough to satisfy the scouts.

OK; I did some more research on the internet to find out more about the philanthropist, William S. Dietrich II, who made the donation. Accoring to the CMU website (one of the collges who received a substantial donation from his trust), he was: "A lifelong supporter of the Boy Scouts of America, he earned the rank of Eagle Scout in 1955 and would later receive the Distinguished Eagle Scout Award in 1999." If this is the case, I feel better, as I believe our local news screwed up and called it an Honorary Eagle Scout instead of Distinguished Eagle Scout. I hope this is the case.

This is a new one to me. One of our local philanthropists died recently and his charitable trust has been paying out to local colleges, museums, etc.. One of the payments ($5 mil) came to our local Laurel Highlands Council. On the TV last night, the local news reported that the deceased was "an honorary eagle scout". This concerned me as I had never heard of this term and I wondered if it was some made up honor given to large monetary contributors to the BSA. If so, IMHO, it really cheapens the rank of Eagle.

 

It is possible that the news screwed up and may have meant the Distinguished Eagle Scout Award, which I am familiar with and is entirely different, as it recognizes adult service (or large donations) after the person has already earned Eagle as a youth. Has anyone encountered this "honorary eagle scout" designation before?

So, given the responses received, and the "official" stance by National in the Advancement Guide, It seems like no one is doing it the way National intended (collection / organization of the letters at the Council level). In all cases, it has been pushed down to either district, the troop, or the scout.

 

It does seem like everyone is following the lack of letters cannot bar a BOR stance, which is good. It still bothers me that we get so little support (other than paperwork filing) from our Council reps.

Can someone explain to me what National expects as far as obtaining Letters of Recommendation for Eagle Scout BORs? I understand the application only requires the scout to list names & contact info for references. Nothing is mentioned about obtaining letters. Our District, like many, required the scout / scoutmaster to collect letters from these references for presentation to the Eagle board. I do understand this is "adding to the requirements for Eagle", but it has been done that way with no complaints as long as I have been involved (11 years).

 

In our area, all the District members (including advancement chairs and board of review members) are all scouter volunteers. We have two council level paid employees who work with District, but generally only on the fundraising level, and not with advancement. I have never seen one at a BOR.

 

So who is not doing their job? Either National does not expect the refences to be contacted, in which case why list them. OR, National expects the unpaid volunteers to chase down 6 references x N Eagle scout candidates every month and get reference letters / input (its not going to be me). OR, National expects someone who is paid by the scouting organization to do that part for us volunteers. What is the expectation?