Frank17

Same sort of result for our Troop: 60 boys in the Troop, about 40-45 attend meeting during school year, only 10-15 attended summer meeting events. This was the first year we attempted a Summer program (other than Summer Camps/ high adventure trips), so I count it a qualified success. I had fun along with my son, so the rest is a bonus.

Philmont just published the 2012 planning guide this week on their website. Take a look at the gear listed at the back; tents are provided by the camp. I did not see any regulations about bringing your own, but it looks like there is no need to purchase one if you do not want to.

Please also do not forget that zinc is a macronutrient, and is a necessary part of our diets in order to survive. It is not like lead or mercury which are automatic toxins to our bodies. In the U.S., the Recommended Dietary Allowance (RDA) is 8 mg/day for women and 11 mg/day for men. Red meats, especially beef, lamb and liver have some of the highest concentrations of zinc in food. The minor amount that leaches out of buckets into cleaniung water that then is used to wash dishes is minor.

Also came across an EXTREME case of zinc poisoning while looking this up, involving ingesting 461 coins, many of which were copper plated zinc pennies:

Zinc Toxicity Following Massive Coin Ingestion, American Journal of Forensic Medicine & Pathology:

June 1997 - Volume 18 - Issue 2 - pp 148-153

Bennett, Daniel R. M.D.; Baird, Curtis J. M.D., Ph.D.; Chan, Kwok-Ming Ph.D.; Crookes, Peter F. M.D.; Bremner, Cedric G. M.D.; Gottlieb, Michael M. M.D.; Naritoku, Wesley Y. M.D., Ph.D.

Abstract: This is the first reported case of human fatality associated with zinc intoxication following a massive ingestion of coins. Four hundred and sixty-one coins were removed from the gastrointestinal tract of a schizophrenic patient during the course of hospitalization. Many of the post-1981 pennies, which consist primarily of zinc, showed severe corrosion due to their prolonged contact with acidic gastric juice. The patient presented with clinical manifestations consistent with the local corrosive as well as systemic effects of zinc intoxication and died 40 days after admission with multi-system organ failure. Tissue samples of the kidneys, pancreas, and liver obtained at autopsy revealed acute tubular necrosis, mild fibrosis, and acute massive necrosis, respectively, and contained high levels of zinc. The overall effects of zinc intoxication on the various organ systems, possible hematological derangement, and the impairment of copper absorption as well as the outcome with treatment are discussed.

"The controversy as to allowing parents to observe the ordeal and ceremonies is one of fairly recent origin and one of great concern to every OA leader and member."

Completely the opposite here. As a parent and an OA member, I do not see the issue with allowing a proud parent to silently observe the ceremony, without photos or video. Allowing a scout to progress on their own can still occur simultaneously with adult observations. Is that not what "boy led" is all about? I have challenged many "ceremony guardian" adults in our area and have never gotten a satisfactory answer other than "that's not the way they did it for me as a scout".

Our sister Troop has one, and they seem to love it. That being said, they do almost constant fundraising to help defray the costs. Aluminum collections, hoagie sales, plant sales, etc. They also have a dedicated group of ASMs and parents who were willing to get CDL licenses and training to be able to drive the bus. It is expensive, but works well for them.

The biggest cost I see is not financial, but time needed. They use their bus for every summer high adventure trip they take, which adds 2 to 4 days traveling each way to the trip times. As a result, the adult leaders have to burn up some serious vacation time to get there in addition to the time at the Camp itself. Our last Northern Tier trip was 9 days for our Troop, but it was 16 days for them. Great if you have the time or are retired, but a lot to ask from your volunteers in order to save plane fare.

I would agree with the others; it will depend on how it is written up & presented.

As a reviewer in our district, I can tell you some of the pitfalls:

1. Make sure it is of sufficient scope that leadership can be shown. It is hard to tell from what you listed whether this is a multi-day or multi-hour project.

2. Make sure your write up stays away from mentioning regular maintenance or repairs. This project sounds more like improvement / rahabilitation to me, but others may see it as more routine repairs, which are not allowed.

3. Doing a project for your chartering organization is no problem in our district; in fact, it is encouraged. They are not seen as "benfiting scouting" directly, as long as the project does not involve doing a service for the Troop itseld that they sponsor (ie. - Cannot build a storage room for Troop gear for the CO)

It depends entirely on the MB, the scout(s), and the MB counselor.

Some MBs take months to do based on their minimum requirements; others can be knocked out in a few hours based on their maximum requirements. Most scouts want to accomplish the maximum amount in the minumum time; occasionally you will run into one that has a genuine interest / passion for the topic and who will want to learn more. That is rare, especially for the Eagle required ones IMHO.

So that leaves the counselor, which is one of my pet peeves. The counselor should be trained, experienced, AND ENTHUSIASTIC about their MB topic, and not just getting paid to present the topic. Generally, the local camp programs are bad since they use paid staff who do not know the topic and who are less than enthusiastic. Similarly, the local groups that sponsor MBs (museums and the like) often have no experience/training in the topic but are generally enthusiastic. Again, IMHO, the parent with a hobby or profession thsy like are often the best teacher for these classes. They have a psassion for their hobby or job which the scouts can sense and are wellsprings of information that the MB handbooks do not cover. I do not think they need to be told how many hours they need to present their topic; they will judge the audience and adjust accordingly.

Weekend backpacking: Usually 2X per year

Day hikes: Usually 6-8 per year, minimum

Week-long+ backpack trips: Usually once per year in summer

We carry, and use, sheath knives all the time in our region. They are called cooking or fillet knives, and are in each and every one of our council camp's patrol boxes, our troop's patrol boxes, and in many of our personal tackle boxes. And that is where they should stay unless they are in use.

There is really very little use for a long knife outside of cooking or food preparation or hunting, which BSA does not allow. They are awkward to carry, bigger than is needed for most tasks, and in most cases are just a "bigger is better" philosophy (remember the "Crocodile Dundee" scene). As such, we do not allow Troop scouts or scouters to carry one directly on their bodies. Packed in as a tool (like a saw or axe) is fine.

Based on the responses, I would say our District seems to be in the middle of the curve when it comes to level of effort / detail presented in the Eagle workbooks. I personally am comfortable with where we are; most of my issues come from some of the reviewers themselves. On some reviews in the past years, reviewers declined approval and required revisions for:

1. Poor grammer in the general description section

2. Use of power tools by scouts (clarly an urban myth, with propoer supervision / training/ safety)

3. And from my Troop, challenging a scout whose project was to hold a book drive and setup a long-term book sale area for the community center what they would do if someone donated a bible. The reviewer seemed to feel the bible should never be sold and had to have special handling / storage, as it was special. Fortunately, caught that one on the night of the review and dealt with it early.

My approach to the reviews is to pass as many as possible, provided there is at least minimal planning evident. If they still have some issues, I generally approve with edits required, which avoids a return visit & delay for the scout. I would love it if we could do more email approvals after the initial in-person review; hopefully we will move more in that direction for edits.

Wow! Coming as a volunteer from a District with over 200 registered units, we do up to 10 EBORs in some months. I cannot imagine having to contact 60 people every month to get references as a volunteer for District. It seems like they should either eliminate this altogether or put it as the responsibility of the Troop / Eagle candidate to do. Right now, Eagle candidates send out the letters but the responses go to the Troop / Scoutmaster. They review them and bring them to the EBOR. Seems to work fine with us.

"Somewhere along the line deep in District Lore we picked up the notion that the Eagle Project Planning should be complete enough if the Scout could not complete the project, another scout could pick up the plan and follow it to completion"

We use the same standard, and it still comes down to level of detail / vision. Is it enough to say: My project is to build 6 picnic table for my church, placed in the back, with all the materials paid for by the church.

Or, do we kneed to know every detail about the project, including the who, what, when, where, and how of the picnic tables with full design and materials specs, labor forecasting, punch lists, and OSHA heatlth and safety requirements. Is this documentation really necessary for a life scout to "plan, develop, and give leadership"?

-I am playing devil's advocate here, as I am an engineer and like to see the detail -

How complete / comprehensive a project plan do you require for your life scouts' Eagle project plans in your District?

Some background: I am a SM of a large troop (60+ boys), and have been involved with Eagle Project reviews / approvals for the past 5 years at the district and troop levels. In our district, project reviews / Eagle BORs happen once per month at the district level. Projects must use the NESA Eagle Scout Leadership Service Project Workbook, and they must be approved in advance before any work / fundraising is done. I have no issues with any of that. The problem seems to come in the form of project approvals. District requires a large amount of detail be present in the Workbook plan, including:

1. A full list of each and every item that will be used in the project, including quantities (think "126 1-1/4 galvanized flat head nails", not just listing "box of nails" or "fasteners").

2. A full list of a tools / equipment that will be needed, most of which are borrowed by the scout.

3. A schedule of the project including number of scouts / adults for each day, what tasks are planned, how many hours each will work, and what the total manhours are for each day.

4. What the anticipated total manhours are for the project as a whole.

5. A full cost estimate, with actual prices from local stores inclusing tax and shpping if needed.

6. A discussion of all fundraising plans including a "Plan B" in case the main fundraising fails or is insufficient.

Now don't misunderstand me, I think all these things are excellent to have in a plan, as it really helps the scouts to implement their project, but this generally results in a project plan that is 5-8 pages long in planning write-up, plus tables, plus pictures. As a result, several things happen:

1. The project plans become onerous for many scouts who do not like to write / type, and they lose enthusiasm for the project in the planning stage.

2. Many project plans are denied because of lack of detail, and the scout is forced to wait a month before they can try again to get it approved. (We are trying to deal with this via email reviews / approvals after the initial in-person review)

3. The approval process itself can be long, sometimes taking 45 minutes - 1 hour - almost the time a full Eagle BOR takes.

Talking with some of the other District Advancement Committee members, there are concerns with this process: Are we asking our 15-17 year old life scouts for too much in requiring this amount of detail? OR will their projects fail during implementation if we reduce this planning requirement, and just let them present a more general plan that may be missing some elements?

Opinions? Relevant experiences?

"They had to bring him back from Retirement around 1979 to redo the handbook and stop the bleeding as Scouts left by the tens of thousands."

I was one of the casualties of that time. We moved in 1978, and my new Troop never went on a single outing or trip involving camping. They were all about book-work and earning MBs, and I dropped out of scouting within 3 months of our move. Fortunately, I joined up with a Pathfinder's group that taught me all my outdoor skills. It's a shame that Irving is downplaying his role in scouting so much.

We have also used Indain Waters and had good experiences. We usually take their 2-day, 35 mile trip and camp on Hemlock Island in the river. The Allegheny is a fun river at that end.

We have had a Troop bugler for about the past 3 years (4 different scouts). All are in band in school and play the trumpet. They use their own trumpets rather than play on an actual bugle. We only use them at COHs and resident Summer camp. Too hard to travel with an instrument when camping / backpacking.

I just had one approved last month for Canoing and did not have BSA lifeguards listed. The reposnible adults did have valid Safery Afloat / SSD, and I also had First aid / CPR, but that was it. May be different council by council, or they may have missed on mine.

Here in Pittsburgh, we have 2 great resources:

1. Monthly "star-gazing" parties during the warm weather months held by a local astronomy club at a nearby park. They are very scout friendly and allow the scouts to look through (not touch) their telescopes and ask lots of questions. We usually attend and wander with the boys for 1-2 hours while they talk and explore.

2. Our local Science Center also has a planetarium and MB program for the Astronomy MB. The scouts cannot earn it in one fell swoop, but must observe the sky for several weeks and document their studies. The planetarium really gives them a head start and most finish the observations without a problem.

As a result of these, and Astronomy MB offers at Summer Camp, about 80% of our scouts earn the MB. It is one of our Troop's more popular ones (after leatherwork and basketweaving).

I love my dog, and she goes family camping with us at camps which allow dogs (PA State parks DO NOT - don't get me started!), but I have never taken her on a scout trip. Even the best mannered dog mixed with a scout troop is a recipe for sorrow. Too many scouts who have never owned a dog and do not know how to treat one and too much opportunity for the dog to be mishandled or be surly. I would love to bring her, but I also respect that not everyone likes dogs.

That is the real problem with many dog owners that I see. They feel that "their" dog is special and no one would not want to be around "their" dog - it is all the others that are the problem. They then proceed to bring the dog to whatever banned activity there is, and problems result. We just had the Komen Race for the Cure (breast cancer) 5K walk, with 40,000 people (actual number). I must have seen 2 dozen dogs on the walk, even though the registration materials, race rules, and website clearly stated "No Dogs". Although most were well behaved, just staying out of the way of the leashes was a problem with 40K other people to avoid. So dog owners, do us all a favor - leave them at home unless specifically allowed to bring them.

In our neck of the city, its a lot easier to get them to join up in 1st grade than it is in 6th grade. School sports and activities have become a lot more competitive for time and involvement than they wre in my day as a youth. At the middle & high school level, they train over the summer daily in August and expect mandatory attendance at all practices/events during the school year. As a result, they are not very forgiving about a boy who wants to miss occasional practices for a Troop meeting or trip.

I think that without the cubbies to lay the "fun" groundwork, our local Troops would be a lot smaller.

I have never seen one, although I am sure one exists that you can use on the temporary patch pocket side.

I would be against simply sewing one onto the uniform, as CPR / 1st aid classes expire fairly frequently (1 to 3 years). Thus, a patch would provide a false sense of security if the wearer is not up-to-date. I beleive the card is enough. The Trained patch we use now if for permanent position training, not temporary health and safety training.

No one NEEDS woodbadge, at least in the same sense that one NEEDS youth protection or weather hazards training.

It is a bonus, and is appropriately placed at the end of all the training classes in the training sequence. It does assist some, but not all. Some come back re-invigorated; some go back to what they had been doing. It is up to the individual to take what they want / can from it. Like most courses of this type, there is a lot of material, so there is a lot of potential.

All OK now:

LANGLEY, AR (AP) - The six Louisiana Scouts and two leaders have been rescued by helicopter from Arkansas wilderness area.

Arkansas State Police said helicopter pilots working overnight spotted the group.

Spokesman Bill Sadler said a trooper at the scene reported National Guardsmen spotted the group from the air.

Reports indicated they were located around 2:30 a.m. Rescue operations resumed at sun-up.

The Scouts from Troop 162 in Lafayette, LA, arrived Thursday at the Albert Pike Recreation Area.

The search began Monday morning, after the group didn't return as expected.

If it helps, I had the same problem about accepting my adult OA nomination as you do. I declined my OA adult nomination the first time as my son had just been elected, and I wanted it to be "his" honor, and not a joint honor in our family. The next year, I accepted and did my ordeal with my son helping out. He initially was upset with me that we had not gone through ordeal together but later admitted that it was pretty neat to be able to help with my ordeal ceremony (he was brotherhood by then). I do not think either choice was right or wrong, just different.

When I teach that requirement, I pass out field identification books I have (picked up at used bookstores) and let the scouts use them to help out with ID. I also encourage the scouts to share IDs and info about each others plots. By no means do I require scientific names or taxomomy - long brown grass vs. short green grass is fine. BUT, I do want the scouts to realize that not all the grass they see (or flowers, or weeds, or etc.) are the same. It takes many species in the same area to make an ecosystem in most places. Usually, common names or descriptive made-up names are fine. When I review their results, we discuss the common names and what are invasives or not.(This message has been edited by frank17)