fotoscout

We are what has become a commuter town of about 17,000, with the RR station right smack in the middle of town. My pack is one of 4 in our little community. We average about 60-65 kids each year. From what Im told we are the strongest and most stable of the local packs. However, we are only able to field one den at each level. No one will step up and be the leader. Tell me what to do and Ill do it, but I wont be a leader, we even get this from the ADLs. Web I, Bears, and Tigers have two-deep leadership. We had 2 Web II dens, but they are gone now. All of the boys moved to BS! Neither of those dens had two-deep leadership. Actually Web I is 1 deep, our CM fills in to help but has no input. Basically, thats the same activity level we get from him as CM.

Our new Tiger leaders are excited about getting trained, and one of them makes an effort to get to RT. Unfortunately, one of the two of them works in the city and rides the train. His time during the week is very limited. I and my Asst DL are the only leader with a Trained patch. The Web II leaders who just left never did a bit of training, and the CM has only done CM specific, and I think he only did a portion of that.

Committee..ha! Not a good story, actually theres no story. Spouses.

Our Pack nights are good, simple but good. My den meets weekly, week in and week out, we also go on outings. The other dens try to meet every other week, but they always seem to have excuses for not meeting. The Wolves just got their Bobcat badge at B&G!

Pack trips, camping trip, Council camp attendance, Memorial Day Flag placement, etc, etc. Not one of them would lift a finger to do more than the absolute minimum to bring more of the program to the kids. Plan a trip, most of the leaders dont show. And of course, if the leader shows little interest, the kids dont show either.

As hard as weve tried, we cannot get more adults to commit as leaders.

What else happens in our little town? Soccer with 1200 kids playing fall and spring, 600 kids playing through the winter. Baseball with 1300 kids playing in the spring, 300 & climbing, playing in the winter. Wrestling, two new programs in the past five years for elementary school aged kids, Im told that the enrollment is around 350, during the fall and winter. Basketball, two different programs, about 500 kids during the winter. Karate, I havent a cue how many dojos are around town, my sons program has almost 300 kids in it. Lacrosse, taking off like a rocket in the younger age groups! There are about 250 young kids from our area playing in the league. Hockey, this one is interesting, slowing growing in popularity, only around 100 kids from our town. But because of the hours, these kids drop out of most other activities. Then theres football. Our program has about 600 young kids in the program.

Hes ranting again, Fotos lost his mind!!

Why did I go through this? This is the reason why we cant get parents to commit to Scouting. Most of these activities have volunteers running them. There are only a limited number of adults willing to volunteer their time and energies. That group of people is becoming thinner and thinner.

Unfortunately, as I visit other Packs and talk to my friends at RT, this is very common around here. Thats not to say that there arent pockets of greatness. But this seems to be the norm.

Dan,

One Word....WRONG.

Den camping has no similarities to Patrol Camping. it should not and would not. You seem to have missed the focus of the this thread.

foto

Hi Laurie,

Big question! Let me start by paraphrasing something I wrote last year, perhaps in that same posting, Youve gone to BALOO, you know how to plan a campfire program, now youre off to Costco to buy a dancehall sized tent. Voila! Today you are a camper!

Baloo is training to plan the activities part of the trip. Baloo is not a camping class.

I can of course only talk about the Baloo that I took and it may not mirror the course that you took. We all know that many of the classes in BSA are presented somewhat differently. Nearly 80% of the instructional time in my class was spent on planning; planing the permission slip, planning the date, planning the food, planning the activities, planing the campfire, planning the transportation, planing the plan. Relatively little time was spent on camping issues.

First and foremost, First Aid! Baloo doesnt insure that you have the ability to administer first aid. You might have the first aid kit, but can you use it? Thats a rhetorical question, Im not looking for an answer.

Then there is the matter of your method of lighting and cooking. What are you going to suggest to your campers, and from what experience do you make that suggestion. Hey! Everyone bring a Coleman lantern, and bring your own barbecue too. Not in my group campsite!!!!, Too many things for the kids to get burnt on. Baloo didnt tell you how to manage this one and Baloo didn't bring it up as talking point. Are you prepared to tell DAD to put his brand new lantern away!

How about site selection? Council has a nice list of approved CS camping areas. Terrific! Now you have set up your tents. What did they tell you about setting up your tents. Do you have the knowledge or experience to recognize when a tent is not setup properly, or is setup in a dangerous location. Heres one that is going to sound really stupid, would you know to look up and down before pitching your tent? Did they tell you to be mindfull of you guy lines and tent stakes. It's too late to think about that after someone gets hurt.

Now youve set up camp. Arguably what is the most important piece of equipment youll want to have? How about that battery powered radio! Baloo didnt tell you that one. You would want to know it the weather is in for a big unexpected change. Remember this isnt Boy Scouts, this is young kids and their parents.

Here is a deadly serious issue, do you stick it out or run when the storm hits? Do you have the confidence to make that decision. Remember youre the leader, they draw strength from your confidence. Sure its easy to cut and run when it starts to drizzle, but if you do that, youve done everyone a disservice (thats my opinion).When do you make the call, young kids love to camp in the rain, but youre the leader, when do you make that call?

How about critters?? Are you comfortable dealing with that issue.

Did Baloo tell you how much rope to bring, or how many tarps or what size tarps.

You CANNOT think that because you took Baloo, you are now an experienced camper, ready to march into the woods with a dozen or more familys and have a successful experience. Baloo does not teach that!

So what is needed to have this type of campout. Baloo is fine, to a point. A conscientious leader would do everything in the Baloo program without ever attending Baloo. If youre organized and comprehend what it is to take a bunch of kids into the woods for a weekend, you will understand what has to be done as far as activities and planning. Many people are instinctively very good at this type of thing. But that is only one piece of the trip. You still need someone with camping experience, someone with experience in the outdoors. Baloo doesnt offer that. Does it need an SM with 30 years of experience? NO. But at a minimum I think it needs a leader, with some (?) number of years camping experience. Preferably, family camping experience.

The kids comfort level with camping will be derived from their own parents. One of your jobs is to make the parents feel comfortable. You can't do that if you're not comfortable. You need an experienced camper to make the trip successful.

BW nailed this one. CS camping is supposed to be fun. Hike on well marked trails, only! Look for animal tracks, fish in the lake, get wet if it rains, get dirty if it doesn't,fly a kite, make a tom-tom. But do it with someone who is expieraced and comfortable in the woods.

Vote here: The Den Campout rule should be amended to allow for a conditional Den overnighter?

Let me think for a minute......YES

The Public Health Service campaigns in this area have been quite effective. Couple that with occasional news articles about Lyme Disease, and the end result is that most people in this area who engage in outdoor activities have become, at the very least aware, and some very knowledgeable about Lyme Disease. We do a brief refresher each time we go on an outing and remind everyone to check themselves thoroughly at the end of the day. Its not too unusual for someone to find a tick on their body, but it is very unusual for it to be the very small deer tick that carries the disease.

Those of us with younger children have no problem getting the child to submit to a thorough body check. I am curious how you get the older kids to do this?

Yes, by all means have a party! Why miss the opurtunity?

We do pretty much the same thing that Marty just laid out. We let the den leaders decide it they want to start working on the next rank through the summer or wait until September to get started. At the Wolf rank, I let my boys earn extra arrow points during the summer. We started the Bear program in September.

Since school doesnt end here until June, we have regular meetings until the end of June. Our Pack family camping trip is also scheduled for June.

July and August each have one Pack outing scheduled for each month. Usually, one of the two of them is a flop, and it doesnt seem to matter which month or what the outing is. The second outing is a local minor league baseball game. This is always well attended! I try to plan monthly den get togethers, although this is very tough. Our August week at camp is planned around the various vacation schedules so many of us are gone on family vacations for much of July, so we never seem to get half of the den at the other summer meeting.

Last year for the first time in 10,000 years we established a Pack schedule for Cub Scout Summer Camp Activities. My den had a great showing, this year we are hoping for a better turnout. We scheduled a Cub Parent weekend, Day Camp week, Resident Camp week, and a Family Camp Weekend at the Council camp. Families are free to sign up for any or all of them.

If you follow the guidelines for Summertime Pack and Den Awards, you'll be doing well. You can always do more if you want to, but that will give you a good bit of continuity going into next year.

Wow, Unbelievable!!!

No Bob, I wasnt baiting. But being the New Yorker that I am, I have to wonder about some of the details. 14 Packs in a rural community of 24,000, and 100 new scouts from that same community. 14 Dens with 2 deep leadership, and 14 Committee members, 28 fully trained, uniformed Leaders in one Pack. I would guess that there are districts with fewer.

Ok, lets get to the heart of it. What other activities were available to these kids? Was there a YP problem with the football program (or some other program) that drove the parents away from football, did a local church decree that all boys between 6-10 would become Scouts. Does the community offer Soccer, Roller Hockey, Ice Hockey, Baseball, Karate, Lacrosse, Wrestling, Competitive Swimming, Basketball, Fencing, Dance, Music, Art, and all the others that Ive left out? Did some local political figure suggest that the children of county employees become Scouts?

My other question was, What is the pack like today? Is it still as strong and vibrant as it was 4 years ago?

This isnt about breaking the rules; its about helping someone do what he sees as good for his program, and making the rules work for him. What worked for you, will not necessarily work for someone else. Read TwoCubs post above this one, he says it very well! Actually, this was about the foolishness of the rule and no ones ability to definitively offer a reason for it.

Hi Bob,

As a cubmaster, I encouraged and supported the dens to have an outdoor activity every month. We did a Family Camp twice a year, nearly every cub attended day camp and resident camp, and our Webelos dens camped 4-times a year.

Please tell us what years this activity occurred in, and does this pack still have the same level of activity and how well is it attended?

There are posters on this thread who are not even involved in the cub scout program telling den leaders "don't listen to the rules listen to me." What absolute arrogance. Telling others to violate the safety and program policies of the BSA while they sit safely isolated unable to be punished no matter what happens or who gets hurt. How cowardly.

Oh please. I suspect that no one on the forum gleaned that from these postings, mine or anyone elses. And I suspect that we all do a good job, in the long haul, of stressing our concern for the safety of the boys in our care. Like it or not, the arguments put forward here will help shape the future of Cub Scouting. If we were all locked in step like lemmings, no change would ever happen. To hide behind an outdated rule, for fear of being seen as being in opposition to that rule is truly the cowardly option.

Bob, Cub Scouting is different today!

By the way, I said sometimes, not regularly!

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Few topic generate the passion that this one does. Wouldn't it be nice to sit in the room when National takes up this debate?

Foto

Hi Bob,

Ill play even though I know whats coming!

Your posts are of course accurate and very much on the money with respect to Den Camping. They are not wrong, they are right! I think well all agree that there is a lot of right in the G2SS, and other BSA publications. But, yes Ill use the but word, following all the policies all time may work for you and not for others. You may have the depth and breath in your support structure to run a good program without the camping trip while others might not. Others may need the camping trip to have a successful outdoors adventure.

If you don't follow the rules then why should a scout have to do so? If you don't follow the program but only wear the uniform how do you call it scouting?

Good questions, Ill answer them here, but maybe it should move to another thread.

Yes, sometimes I drive 5 miles over the speed limit. Yes, sometimes when I park my car at the curb, the front of my car extends 6 inches beyond the no parking sign. Both are in violation of the traffic laws, but Im still a good driver, I have no tickets or accidents, and I get a good driver discount from my insurance company. I even take the NHSC Safe Driver Course every three years. Am I a hazard to the passengers in my car, should I be banned from driving, can I call what I do Driving?

The answer is the same. Do I take some small liberties with the program? Do you take some small liberties with the program? How many of you out there run raffles? How many of you out there run 50/50s. How many of you out there get a tour permit for absolutely every outing that might need one, and how many of you out there go back and accurately correct the tour permit after the outing is over? Again the answer is the same, its not about gross violations of policy, its about small liberties that make the program work for me and you, and each of us. Its about exercising judgment in a mature fashion and if thats not Scouting then I plead guilty.

Remember that in this case we are really talking about trying to follow the rules, but ultimately manipulating the tour permit so that this trip could go forward. I might also add that in some places the tour permit would be approved without any manipulation. Marty Doyles posting was very telling. I heard the same rhetoric from the National Director of Cub Scouting over two years ago. Yet we still dont have any changes in the program. Todays Cub Scout Leaders are trying to make the program work for todays kids. Yesterday rules are making it very difficult. Many of you at this point are rehashing the old argument about Den Leaders wanting to do too much, pushing the kids, and ruining the BS program because the CS have done too much BS activity. To you folks I say, wake up, todays kids are different than yesterdays kids, todays parents are different than yesterdays parents, and todays program has to compete at a higher level than yesterdays program. Be part of the solution, not part of the problem.

My very personal outlook on this is that I believe that many of the people who voice opposition to Den Campouts are out of touch with todays CSs. I say that with no disrespect intended. The people who understand this issue are todays Den Leaders and Cubmasters and not yesterdays Cubmasters who are still doing the job after 20 years. Most of the district and council people I see are many years removed from Cub Scouts. There interest is with the BS program, and are being dragged back to the CS program only out of necessity! Unfortunately, its not these people that we need to tweak the CS program; its their Children or Grandchildren. The 2004 Cub Scout environment is much different than the 1970s Cub Scout Environment.

One closing thought, take a look at the age of your Cub Scout parents. If youre like me, most of the parents are older parents, over 35 and many over 40, remember I have a Bear Den (8-9 year olds). Why is that?

Bring it on!!!!

Its Me,

The positions of BW and PE reflect their view of scouting. We need to remember that we all have our own view, and that view is based on the kind of person we are, and, the tone of scouting in the area we live in. There is a lot of right in what theyve posted, but that doesnt necessary mean that if you follow their thoughts youll have a great program. What works for them might not work for you. Thats why there is a lot of flexibility built into the program. Safety, fun, some education, and the constant hum of values are what make a great CS program. They are not arguing against that, dont be too hard on them.

Proud Eagle, nice post. But with all due respect I think it highlights a separation of some years from the CS Program.

No one in their right mind would involve CSs in most of the activities that you listed, and I would consider roasting marshmallows as hardly a form of outdoor cooking. Your posting also brings to light one of the other great differences between CS and BS. CS packs, at least in this area, dont usually have the strong committee to do the work that you suggest. Often were lucky to have leader who are doing little more than going thought the motions, I call them the tag-a-longs. And, to finish out that thought process, these tag-a-long leaders havent motivated their parents to be involved, so they also have no parental support. They dont and wont, step up to a larger task that would benefit the pack. Consequently, its the few active den leaders that put on the program. The result is, if I put on the pack camping trip, my den doesnt get the attention from me that they deserve. The parents from my den should not be expected to cater to the rest of pack. They have their own kids to tend to.

A little anger here!

Im all for your focus on program, but outdoor activities and camping ARE part of the CS program. As national has said, more outdoors and camping activities need to be presented in the CS program. Some of us are actively trying to do that, but national isnt helping. Instead of spouting about no Den campouts, the G2SS should be placing guidelines on how we do our den campouts. I have no problem with the list of age appropriated activities (except canoeing), but I feel that the guidelines should address items like these for Den Camping trips:

Travel distance for your meeting place, identify a limitation

Number of nights, identify a limitation

Weather and temperature ranges

Location; no Bear Country or other dangerous critters

Cell phone access, location should have means of communication

Parent/child restrictions

Sibling issues

Training requirements

I havent given a great deal of thought to these items, but Im sure you see the concept behind them. Provide guidelines for the trip, dont prohibit it!

Yes Ed, still no answer.

I believe that it is the Top Leader (SM or CM), as listed on the Charter that cannot also be registered as a Commissioner. I dont know if the Crew Advisor also fits this designation.

I am also registered in Unit and District positions. Scheduling does sometimes become difficult, but so far, Im able to make it work. Many of our people wear multiple hats, it just nature of the beast. The reality of the situation is that we need more adult volunteers.

As a pack we went to a college basketball game two weeks ago. There were 4-6 packs there and everyone (all the scouts, not just the Color Guard), was allowed on the court with their Flags for the Color Guard. During the National Anthem some packs saluted with the CS Salute, and some by placing the hand over the heart. The music was not live.

The ironic part of this was that the informed leaders knew not to use the CS Salute so they told their kids used the hand of the heart. Others used the CS Salute. When we got back to our seats everyone asked the same question, why didnt those (these) kids do the CS Salute? BSA etiquette aside, the general public expects Scouts to use a Scout Salute.

Sparkie,

How are your dens doing ARC BAT and BFA. Each is requirement depending on the grade level? Also, BFA is I believe an 8 hour course and requires a certified ARC instructor?

The other pieces of the requirements are easy and well suited to a den or pack meeting, the ARC training portion is a different story.

I've looked into doing it with a Bear Den. The ARC BAT training is a minimum 6-hour class. I don't think that's doable with a den unless I do it in 10-minute increments from now until next September.

I've tried to find someone local that has done this with his or her boys and have come up empty. I suspect that many people are having trouble getting it done.

Hi Sandy,

I havent done one these but Ive already put it on the district calendar for next year. We dont have a safe hill around here to run it on so Im thinking about running it like our Klondike. My thoughts are to have some type of Jr. obstacle course with challenge stations along the way. The stations would be simple stuff like the bobcat material, spell your name backwards, tie you shoe, and simpler stuff for the Tigers.. things like that. Then we would judge the cubmobiles much like we do with the Pinewood Derby Cars. Depending on the location, we might add a flat out race to the event.

Our district hasnt done one of these in over ten years, the old timers were very excited about doing when I brought it up!

How did I get 5 stars anyway? I feel so puffed up....it must be hot air!

Movements tend to, move. The concept behind a movement is to gain a following, and promote your cause. So, in the early years and perhaps through the 1950s, you could probably categorize Scouting as a movement. I am sure that in some countries it can still be called a movement, but I think that in this county Scouting has become a Program.

The youth are the focus of the program, and yes to make it work the adults must control it. First just look at he vast amount of adult time it takes to make this work. Volunteers, paid staff, executive staff, could any of those functions be carried out by the youth? Could the youth carry out a national program as complex as this one? I think both answers are no. In part because the youth have a primary responsibly to attend school, and in part because few of the youth members are really up to the larger jobs. They need maturity, wisdom, experience, and knowledge. Personalities aside, we all bring those qualities to every meeting we attend. The youth just arent there yet. I am of course referring to the larger district, council, and national program.

If youre referring to the Troop level, my answer would be the same. How often have you had a group of boys that displayed the vision of a program, not just getting thought that particular camping trip, but he program for tomorrow, next year, and five years down the road? Thats in part the committees job, the adults. Without them the program becomes an adventure in daily, weekly, or monthly fire drills.

I'll give you an example. One of our local troops did a great high adventure trip for the older boys last summer. They canoed and hiked thought the Adirondacks for two weeks. The boys made all the arrangements, and did great job of it, but the seed plant, concept, and preliminary work for the trip was started by one of the adults. This year, that ASM is cannot do the trip, so back in September, one of the other ASMs said hed do it. This new guys concept is to wait for the boys to start asking about it. Its February now and maybe already to late to do the same or a similar trip with the boys. So what happened here, the boys will miss out on a great experience because nobody initiated the process. This story is of course about an adult, but I think that this scenario would become routine without any adults working in the background.

I get the impression that some of you think that a den campout would be fundamentally different than a pack campout. I dont see it that way. I see a den campout as a smaller more personable version of the pack campout. Fun in the outdoors, and if they work on achievements or electives thats even better.

As for the progression argument, I think its misguided. If the younger boys go camping and have fun, they will not tire of it unless they are pushed to do things that they are just not ready for. Remember that cubbies go camping to have fun, not to meet advancement requirements, and Ive never met a CS aged boy who could have too much fun! There is no reason to have CS or even Webelos become saturated with camping skills. So I think that the progression argument is over used.

Leadership.... like TwoCub, if my den went camping we would have Den Leader, Asst. Cubmaster, two additional Asst. Den Leaders, two with WB training, two with WLOT, one with Balooo, a cop, a fireman, and an AEMT. Leadership and safety for many dens is just not an issue.

Bob,

Your post supports most of the things that weve said here. But Eds right, we still dont have an answer. I think FOG is on the right track with the pagan sacrifices. However, Ill shoot for a different angle.

My guess is that its more of a political issue than a skills or safety issue. If I, the Den 3 Leader, want to go camping with my boys, and the parents agree with it, we could effectively go camping as a den 5- 8 times during the year. Thats terrific for my boys, but what about the rest of the pack? You see, none of the other leaders are campers. They wouldnt go camping unless it was at the Marriott. The rest of the parents however, want and expect an outdoors program from their Den Leaders. Big trouble brewing already! Whats the committee to do? The parents are stammering for more camping, the den leaders wont do it; the parents with the big mouths wont become leaders, and the Den 3 parents because they spend time together, have become a force to reckon with when it comes to all pack activities. Not conducive to a happy pack

Strictly hypothetical, but I suspect that there is at least a small piece of the answer buried somewhere in the above paragraph.

All 13 of our Webelos will be going to the same troop this year. The boys chose to stay in our community. Overall the troop could be looking at almost 25 new scouts this year. I hope they can handle it.

We had a very successful Blue and Gold last night. Turnout was virtually 100%! Great job all the way around by our leaders!

I wasnt involved with the decorations this year, so when I walked into the room I had to stop and scratch my head for a minute. In the past weve always done blue and gold --- actually yellow, cub scout yellow. This year the decorations were blue and gold --- gold, like really gold.

I never thought about this before, can someone tell us which gold, blue and gold is supposed to be?

Maybe I should have called this thread, "A Colorful Question"

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Does anyone know where we get an answer to this question, and who to address it to?

I cant speak for Its Me, but when we go its a joint effort, (sorry folks, no pun intended). Part of Baloo is the organization of the program and assignment of tasks to others adults. I dont think that the baloo person has to spend his time driving the schedule. Everyone gets assignments and they do their jobs.

In my opinion, the whole baloo thing is about planning for a program that follows the BSA model. BSA doesnt want me or you or anyone else simply going out in the woods with a bunch of kids and no plan to do something constructive with them. A constructive program can be put together with a den or a pack or even district. Ultimatley, my camping trip, your camping trip, and even BW's camping trip should pretty much look the same. Our activities will differ, but the program should be pretty close. I think that this is what baloo is all about.

Eamonn, I dont quite know what you mean about details of the camp. The baloo that I did was primarily focused on the planning. They did very little in terms of camp details.