fgoodwin

I'm also torn on this one. I'm chairman of our council's Protestant Committee, and when I teach adult courses on the religious emblems, I always emphasize that the workbooks are designed to be done in a family setting, not a group setting like a den or troop. OTOH, some boys and families simply won't make the effort, so I admire clydesdale115 for taking the initiative to at least consider a group class. I don't know what the best approach is (how about those families who try to do it the "right" way but their minister has no clue about the program or how to lead it?). My formerly "hard-line" opposition to group sessions is softening.

Vicki brings up a point I, as a parent, need to remind myself of. Yes, "back in the day" I had chores to do, and I did them. But I didn't exactly relish the tasks, and I didn't exactly do them cheerfully. I rarely, if ever, got paid for them (altho the lawn mowing was indeed a business, after which followed paper throwing, and later helping my grandpa with his roofing business, for which I was paid literally slave wages!). I was certainly no saint as a child, and I didn't mean to imply otherwise, yet its true that I did my share of chores around the house, certainly moreso than my kids do today.

Elizabeth, sounds like you have a great bunch of kids, and I'm sure you're very proud of them. Also sounds like you've done a great job as a parent raising them!

I think Jeff's right -- parents today coddle their kids far too much, and I count myself guilty on that score. Its more than just mowing the lawn -- that's just Jeff's most obvious example, but I can recall when I was a kid, I had to feed the dog & clean up after him, I had to vacuum the house before I could go out and play in the summertime and on weekends, I had to take out the trash, straighten the house, wash dishes, bring in the paper, etc., etc. There was a ton of things I had to do back in the day that I don't ask my kids to do now. Kids today feel no obligation to help maintain the home & yard. They expect their parents to do it all, to give them whatever they need, then leave them the heck alone. Heaven forbid I should ask them to fold their clothes or pick up their own rooms!

Why Don't Kids Do Chores Anymore? http://www.careerjournal.com/myc/workfamily/20050701-opdyke.html http://tinyurl.com/gwrn8 By Jeff Opdyke From The Wall Street Journal Online When I was growing up, I spent many summer days struggling to shove a bulky Toro mower through the thick mat of grass that was my yard. That was my main weekly chore. I pushed that same mower around the neighborhood with my buddy, Mike, hawking lawn-cutting services for $10 a yard. I mention this because I've noticed something peculiar while driving around town in recent weeks: Though it's summer, I've yet to see a single kid out mowing a lawn. I don't see any kid-produced signs offering mowing services. I see teams of lawn-maintenance workers neatly tending yards...but no kids. It's not just lawns, mind you. During our time in New Jersey, I don't recall seeing any kids raking leaves in the fall. In three years not a single kid stopped by our house offering to shovel the snow off the driveway. I never hear my son's friends lamenting the chores they're charged with after school or on weekends. All they ever do is ride bikes or dash off to this practice or that game or some camp. I don't blame the kids. I blame the parents. To put it bluntly: We've gone soft. Partly, I think, we remember how much we hated the chores when we were younger. Partly we feel guilty about all the time we spend working. Partly we're just too lazy and it's easier to hire somebody than force our kids to do it. Whatever the reason, many of us are slacking off when it comes to imposing on our kids the same sorts of obligations our parents required of us. In watching my son water some plants for me the other day -- meaning, watching him barely sprinkle the plants amid his goofball antics with the hose and an anthill -- I realized that it's time to reverse the trend. Child-labor laws be damned, it's time my son went to work. * * * I don't recall how old I was when my grandfather -- who, with my grandmother, raised me -- started asking me to cut the grass, though I'm pretty sure I was about 9 or 10. I remember in second grade helping him in the garden and with odds and ends around the house. I also remember hating it: I would much rather have been down the street playing with my friends, or inside watching Scooby Doo on a Saturday morning. Occasionally, he might give me a couple of dollars for my effort, though usually he just patted me on the back and said, "Good job, buddy." Looking back on those days, I realize now what my grandfather was trying to teach me then: that you must establish a work ethic; you must learn to take care of your property; you can't always expect money for simply helping the family; and you must earn through an honest day's work what you want in this life. I can't say that I've sent an equally meaningful message to my own son up to this point. In fact, the message I'm sending is pretty much the opposite. For instance, we have a lawn-service guy who cuts the grass and edges the yard for $35 every week or two. I hired him because I don't have the time on weekends, between writing and rehabbing an old house I bought with a friend. The amount of money I can make on those activities far surpasses what I pay the lawn guy to cut my grass. Yet I'm beginning to see that the cost of hiring somebody to cut my grass goes beyond that $35. This is the first house we've owned -- and we've owned six -- where I haven't done the yard work. What my son sees is his mom and me paying someone else to do what we could do instead. So, I imagine he figures: "Why should I do what Mom and Dad won't?" Traces of that come out when he's assigned a small chore. He gets bored quickly and begins to play, and soon drops the task all together. It isn't a priority for him because I haven't instilled in him that it should be a priority. A couple of weeks ago, for example, I asked him to water some day lilies we had just planted. I watched him through the window: He spent about a minute on that duty, then began spraying an anthill, stirring up the ants and watching them busily try to preserve and rebuild their mound. When that lost his attention, he turned off the water, left the hose splayed across the yard and came inside to watch cartoons -- while the day lilies wilted in the heat. I know I've got company here. Not only do I see it in the absence of kids cutting grass and raking leaves and shoveling snow, but I also hear it from friends I talk to. Lots of parents don't force their kids to do much work around the house. Why, though? Why do we let our kids shirk the same responsibilities we once had? I can think of a few reasons... * * * Perhaps the key reason is that we live in an age that's more touchy-feely. Many parents -- and I concede that I am one of them -- are more lenient and less authoritarian than were our parents. When I was a child, my grandparents gave me a chore and they expected me to do it. Period. These days, Mom and Dad aren't so much setting the rules as they are negotiating with their kids. And kids learn to negotiate themselves out of tasks they don't want to be burdened with at the moment. But that isn't the only reason. It's also a question of money: Many of us have more of it than our parents did when they were raising us. If we can hire somebody to cut the grass every two weeks for less money than we'd spend on one dinner out, why not? Also, so many kids are overscheduled these days. They have soccer practice and tennis lessons and dance class. By the time they get home, there are barely enough hours for homework and dinner. Who has time to weed the garden? And then there's guilt. More couples both work nowadays, often logging long hours. That leaves us anxious not to waste those precious hours we do have for our kids. Chores, we rationalize, are inconvenient when we could be doing something as a family. So there are lots of reasons, many of them valid. But I'm convinced that none of them are good enough, and I'm going to change things around my house. My son isn't quite old enough to push a lawnmower across the yard yet, but he is old enough to help me weed the many flower beds we have. He's also old enough to rake leaves in the fall, to help me change the oil in the cars and to help me wash the dishes at night -- all of which will soon be on his to-do list. I may decide to pay him a little something for a few of those chores, since some of them are beyond what I view as weekly obligations. For the most part, though, I'll just pat him on the back and say, "Good job, buddy." Email your comments to jeff.opdyke@wsj.com -- July 01, 2005

flmomscoutw3, you wondered why I shared this. I didn't really have any "intention" other than I thought it was an interesting bit of news. I stand behind BSA 100%, but other groups certainly have the freedom to express their own views. If ALA withdraws their support of the Reading MB, that would seem to me like cutting off your nose to spite your face. Given the dismal reading levels of many youth today, it would seem like the BSA Reading MB aligns more with ALA's core mission, but maybe reading isn't their core mission. Maybe their purpose in life is to point blame at groups that don't feel the same way they do about social issues. I hope BSA continues to offer the Reading MB, ALA supported or not.

Infoscouter, I was about to say "welcome" to the Forums, based on your two posts, but I see you've been registered since 2003!

ALACOUN:17652] Time's up for the Boy Scouts ! http://lp-web.ala.org:8000/guest/archives/ALACOUN/log0604/msg00063.html http://tinyurl.com/hesj4 -------------------------------------------------------------------- To: ALA Council List Subject: [ALACOUN:17652] Time's up for the Boy Scouts ! From: MCR Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2006 20:54:05 -0400 Cc: srrtac-l@ala.org, PLGNET-L@listproc.sjsu.edu. Reply-To: iskra@earthlink.net Sender: owner-alacoun@ala1.ala.org -------------------------------------------------------------------- Title: Time's up for the Boy Scouts ! Time is up for ALA's relationship with the Boy Scouts of America. After two years of debate in the late '90s the ALA Council voted that our concerns about BSA's discriminatory policies with regards to homosexuals and atheists, affecting scouts and scoutmasters alike, was putting us in conflict with some of our most basic principles. (See ALA Council Actions, 1999 ALA Midwinter Meeting (January 29-February 3, 1999, Actions of the ALA Council February 3 (?), 1999) Philadelphia, PA, Council III) VOTED, To adopt CD#51-A, Resolution on the Boy Scouts of America, which read: "That the American Library Association urges the Boy Scouts of America to reconsider their policy of discrimination in the areas of sexual orientation and religious belief and demonstrate a commitment to human rights, inclusiveness, and mutual respect."(1998-99 CD#51-A) Councilor Karen Schneider put this matter well back then: "After two years of debate, it was agreed that as a group with a relationship to the Boy Scouts, what we wanted to do, and what we were in a very good position to do, is ask them to reconsider their policy--nothing more or less. Considering the reaction of other organizations to the Supreme Court decision, our response to an issue which the Boy Scouts alone chose to raise--no one asked them to start a witch-hunt on their gay members--was constructive, moderate, and prescient. It was that Council vote that is responsible for why I am still in ALA. We all have our self-esteem issues, and those of us who are gay often find ourselves overlooking or rationalizing comments that were they directed at persons of color, women, the disabled, etc. would invoke outrage in ourselves as well as others. But I do get to decide where my money goes, and I would not, could not pay dues (not to mention attending conference, etc.--I recently totted up what I spent on ALA-related activities in the last decade, and it was not inconsiderable) to an organization that would not stick up for a significant percentage of its own members--those who are gay, and those who support gay rights--in such a modest, diplomatic, but ultimately important way. Karen G. Schneider" The culminating official action to which Schneider refers was as follows: Since then we have heard NOTHING about the response of the Boy Scouts of America to this resolution. I would like Council to be able to see how this had been communicated to BSA by ALA and, hopefully, by ALSC; what their written/formal response was;how their response was communicated byh the EB to relevant sections; how the matter was publicized if at all, in order to actually put pressure on the BSA; what progress has been made, if any (there's has been NONE to my knowledge as of today) ; and what we intend to do about the apparent utter disregard by the BSA of our concerns. We know these practices of discrimination continue, are still being defended in the courts, and that many scouts and scoutmasters have been and are being affected adversely. THis week I saw aired on HBO an current episode of Penn [Gillete] and Teller's "BUL **** !!" in which these equal-opportunity debunkers took on the Boy Scouts and demonstrated the unreconstructed and even deepened nature of the BSA's commitment to bigotry and their domination by the Mormon Church, whose religious influence they essay. It is intolerable now as it was in the 90s to be providing SPECIAL SERVICES to the BSA, in engaging in SPECIAL ORGANIZATIONL CO-ACTIVITIES, in CO-SPONSORSHIPS with an organization which brazenly and ever more extensively practices discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation, religious belief, and sectarian "moral values".Serving the needs of members of the Boy Scouts is one thing, supporting the BSA, Inc. organizationally linking to them is QUITE another. Penn and Teller, in their uniquely acute and acidic manner, point out that the BSA that they knew (which is the one I knew as a young scout) changed in the 1980s when it was virtually taken over by the Mormon Church (they present the numbers about Mormon influence and interviews with proponents of it). Of course it is not just Mormonism but to a lesser degree other religious fundamentalist organizations who exercise decisive determinant influence over the oaths and obligations of troops around the country. The national policy remains unequivocal rejection of the morality and fitness of homosexuals and atheists and their exclusion from or expulsion from the BSA. It is time to tally the balance sheet here. In my estimate, NO progress has been made in their adjusting their behavior based on religious and sexual-orientation prejudice. If ALA remains committed to combatting those evils it is high time to re-open this chapter and say "They had their chance. They ignored our concerns. We must terminate any special relations to the BSA through designated liaisons, joint-programs etc. I will be rallying support for this before the ALA New Orleans conference. There will be a resolution. There will be, if necessary a floor fight and this time I hope the majority is not bullied by special interests connected to the BSA to allow the argument of their "long term relationship" with an organization which radically changed its position on these matters for theworse since the 80s (i.e. in the middle of that relationship) to use longevity as an argument for continuation. I will. be bringing to Council a resolution along the following lines: RESOLUTION ON THE BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA WHEREAS the American Library Association (ALA) has had a long official relationship with the Boy Scouts of America (BSA), currently in the form, among other things, of a designated ALSC (Association for Library Service to Children liaison; and WHEREAS ALA and units may provide bibliographies and other material and services to any organization with or without formal or official affiliation and therefore can continue to do due diligence; and WHEREAS the BSA continues to exclude persons from membership and leadership on the basis of religious ideas and/or sexual orientation; and WHEREAS ALA Policy 9.5 specifically prohibits ALA or its component units from having formal relationships with organizations which violate ALAs principles and policies regarding human rights and social justice; and WHEREAS ALA policies 54/17 and 60.2 declare the Associations support for gay rights and against creed-based discrimination; therefore be it RESOLVED that the American Library Association calls upon ALA to suspend formal or official relations with the Boy Scouts of America until such time as the Boy Scouts of America ends its exclusionary policy on the basis of a persons religious beliefs or sexual orientation; and be it further RESOLVED that the ALA once again strongly urges the Boy Scouts of America to change its membership practices so that they demonstrate a commitment to human rights, inclusiveness and mutual respect before prior relations with us can be restored. I need a seconder and will send this immediately to the resolutions committee. I am tired of seeing Council pass resolutions which like the previous one on the BSA are never monitored or reported back upon and for which no one takes responsibility. This time we should be decisive and see if that makes any difference. In any case, it's the right thing to do and the right time to finally do it. Mark C. Rosenzweig ALA Councilor at large

Novice: it turns out I gave the wrong page number for the first reference; it should be page 21-9. But if you don't have access to the Cub Scout Leader Book, the rest of the quote says:If a parent or guardian cannot attend, the boy's family should make arrangements for one of the other parents or another adult relative or friend to be a substitute at the campout. It is essential that each Webelos Scout is under the supervision of an adult . . .

Re: Webelos Den Overnight Camping, refer to page 21-11 of the Cub Scout Leader Book (I have the the 2001 edition, but I think it says the same thing in the current edition):Webelos den overnight campouts are parent-son events . . . In most cases, a Webelos Scout is under the supervision of his own father, mother or guardian.Another quote from page 33-4:Webelos Scout overnight campouts introduce the boy and his parent or guardian to the basics of the Boy Scout camping program . . . In most cases, the Webelos Scout will be under the supervision of a parent or guardian.I don't see any mention of a 5-to-1 ratio; I suspect this comes from the National Standards for day camp chaperones, but I can't swear to that because I've never been to National Camp School.

John, you're welcome. I like to get the Cubs outdoors as much as possible, especially in the summer, but for those times when you must do things inside, some of the these activities should fit right into the den leader's weekly program. I hope your little guys enjoy them, and let NASA know if you find them useful: http://spaceplace.nasa.gov/en/kids/contact_us.shtml

Cub Scout Achievements & Electives at the Space Place Maybe you already know this, but in case you don't: NASA has a great page of space & rocket-related activities that will satisfy many belt loop and rank requirements: http://spaceplace.nasa.gov/en/kids/cubscouts/ As you plan your summertime activities, you may want to keep some of these in mind.

MarkS: I was about to say the St Louis Council had it all wrong but decided to actually look over their W2S "Disappearing Packet" and I'm glad I did before I spoke up. What I was going to say was that serious planning for W2S transition begins as soon as a third grader finishes his Bear year -- that's the time to get him, his family and his DL to think about Webelos resident camp, *before* he starts his 4th grade Webelos I year. Without summer camp and the 3-4 outdoor activity pins they work on, the boy will be seriously behind his fellow 4th grade Webelos Is who *did* attend Webelos resident camp. I'm not sure if this is consistent with what the planning guide says, because their use of terms like "3rd grade Webelos" is very confusing. As far as I know, there's no such thing as a "3rd grade Webelos" (well, maybe in an LDS Pack). There are "graduating" 3rd graders, who will be 4th graders in the fall, and those boys are encouraged to attend Webelos resident camp. Although it never too late to start the transition, if you ask me, I do think that waiting to start W2S transition until the end of the 4th grade year wastes 12 precious months. Fred Goodwin former WDL

Boy Scouts chastised for immigrant rallies http://www.sltrib.com/ci_3713439 Politics: Official says Latino troop violated policy of involvement By Jennifer W. Sanchez The Salt Lake Tribune Salt Lake Tribune Article Last Updated: 4/15/2006 01:10 AM A Utah Boy Scout official has warned a Latino troop earning merit badges for "Citizenship in the Community" that it violated policy against involvement in political events with its participation in immigration demonstrations this week in Salt Lake City. Michael Clara, scoutmaster of Boy Scout Troop 987, said he received a phone call on Wednesday from Vic Rowberry, a Great Salt Lake Council of Boy Scouts of America field director, who said the troop shouldn't have participated in the events. Clara disagreed, saying he didn't understand the difference between providing the flag ceremony and staying to observe the Republican State Convention in August 2005 and carrying and passing out flags at the nonpartisan immigration demonstrations on Sunday and Monday. Though nonpartisan, the rallies were aimed at influencing federal immigration reform. Clara said Rowberry had given Troop 987 - made up of 15 Latinos ages 12 to 15 - permission to conduct the flag ceremony at the state GOP convention. "It's disappointing that the council would second-guess our judgment . . . I'm strict with my boys, and we do everything by the book," said Clara, a Utah Republican Hispanic Assembly member who started the Latino troop three years ago. Clara, 39, said his Boy Scouts participated in the demonstrations as volunteers for the Utah Coalition of La Raza, a nonpartisan advocacy civil rights organization, to fulfill their requirements for the Citizenship in the Community Merit Badge. To get the badge, the troop must pick "a charitable organization" that "brings people in your community together to work for the good of your community"; volunteer for eight hours with the group; and later discuss what the troop learned. Kay Godfrey, spokesman for the Great Salt Lake Council, said the organization's policy is clear that uniformed members cannot participate in political events or activities that might be "construed as rendering an endorsement for a particular candidate or position." But, it is OK to serve as a color guard or in a flag ceremony as long as the troop doesn't participate further in the event. Rowberry probably called Clara to remind him of the organization's policy and that "he should be a little more selective" about the events in which he and his uniformed Boy Scouts participate, Godfrey said. The troop's participation would have followed Boy Scouts policy if it had performed the flag ceremony at the demonstrations and then left, Godfrey said. The group will not face any consequences, Godfrey said. "I'm sure he had good intentions, but we need to watch it," Godfrey said of Clara. "When there's a political cause involved, we have to be careful." Before the April 9. Sunday march and Monday rally, the troop passed out fliers around Salt Lake's west side and solicited 1,000 U.S. flags and 500 signs with the U.S. flag that read "God Bless America," Clara said. At the Dignity March, six Troop 987 scouts performed the flag ceremony and carried flags at the head of the three-mile march from downtown Salt Lake City to the Capitol. The demonstration drew more than 40,000 people. At the Unity Rally, four of the same scouts performed the flag ceremony and passed out the U.S. flags and signs. Clara said the demonstrations were a powerful and patriotic experience for the troop - those who participated in uniform and those who attended without their uniforms with their families. "They were in a crowd of people that respected and honored the flag," he said. "It gave them a deeper appreciation and understanding of what the flag means." Guillermo Miramontes, a 14-year-old scout who participated in the flag ceremonies at the demonstrations, said he was excited about being part of such a large and important Latino event. "I want to do more things to do with the community," he had said at the rally. Rowberry did not return several messages left seeking comment. No one could be reached for comment at the Texas-based Boy Scouts of America national office because it was closed Friday in observance of Good Friday. In his 15 years as spokesman, Godfrey said he had never heard about a troop being questioned about its involvement with a political event until this week. He said he received "a few" phone calls from people asking about the troop's presence at the demonstrations. Clara said he believes the troop is being "singled out" because it participated in a "nontraditional event." As the organization tries to diversify its troops, Clara said it needs to understand that ethnic minorities are going to participate in events that some Utah Boy Scouts have not joined in the past. Clara said the organization teaches civic responsibility and being tolerant and respectful of people's differences. "The very thing we're teaching our young men, the council is not doing to us," Clara said. Godfrey called those comments by Clara "ridiculous." jsanchez@sltrib.com

Sorry to jump in late, but I wonder to whom did scoutndad send his request for district support? The job of unit service falls squarely on the Commissioner Corps. If your Pack doesn't know who their Unit Commissioner (UC) is, call the district commissioner (DC) and find out! If you don't have a UC, ask the DC to assign you one. Of course, there are never enough UCs to go around, but if your unit is struggling, a UC can be reassigned away from a more successful unit to yours. It is also the UC's job (or the Asst DC or the DC if a UC isn't assigned) to get you the list of nearby Troops to which your Webelos might visit and eventually bridge. I urge you to go to your UC (or ADC or DC) instead of your DE for this information. DEs have more than they can handle on their plates already -- let the Commissioner Corps do their job, which is unit service. Its the only reason the Commissioners Corps exists! Fred Goodwin, UC Alamo Area Council

Thanx for the references -- I'll look into them.

Either -- whichever is cheaper! I looked into a KOA, but they wanted $250 for a ten day stay in a tent. Altho that's less than ten days in a hotel, its still a bit more than I'd like.

Can anyone recommend a campground near Columbus, OH? Something cheap (I need to be there about ten days) with showers?

LH: Thanx for checking -- don't worry about it. Fred

Boy Scouts of America Recognizes Youth Protection Month, Encourages Education, Prevention and Reporting of Child Abuse http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20060403006152&newsLang=en http://tinyurl.com/osfoh April 03, 2006 02:01 PM US Eastern Timezone IRVING, Texas--(BUSINESS WIRE)--April 3, 2006--In response to the staggering increase each year in child abuse, and as part of a continued effort to educate youth and adults to recognize and report child abuse, the Boy Scouts of America (BSA) is recognizing April as Youth Protection Month. Each year, the number of reported incidents of child abuse increases. According to the National Clearinghouse on Child Abuse and Neglect Information, in 2003 an estimated 1.9 million referrals concerning child welfare were made to and investigated by state child protective services agencies (CPS). This is only an estimate and does not include the vast numbers of unreported incidents and incidents not accepted for investigation. Of that 1.9 million, more than 900,000 children were determined to be victims of abuse or neglect, and more than 100,000 victims of sexual abuse. Throughout April, BSA will place extra emphasis on its Youth Protection programs and initiatives. Boy Scout councils across America have access to a newly revised DVD set of educational programs for youth and parents on personal safety, recognizing dangerous situations and avoiding becoming victims. "Child sexual abuse is a problem in our society, and it demands the attention of all youth-serving organizations," said Jim Terry, director, Assistant Chief Scout Executive, of the BSA. "This is why April as Youth Protection Month is so very important. The Boy Scouts of America advocates parents becoming actively involved with their children. In combating child abuse, we stress the importance of parents having ongoing communication with their children. It is worthwhile to talk to your children every day and take time to listen and observe." The BSA program targets child abuse on five primary levels, focusing on: education in detecting and preventing child abuse; leader selection procedures for organizations that charter Scout troops and packs, Venturing Crews and Explorer Posts; rules to help prevent abuse; prompt reporting of incidents; and action when incidents are reported. Throughout all levels of Scouting, the BSA empowers youth to prevent child abuse through the "Three R's Of Youth Protection" - Recognize, Resist and Report. -- Recognize that anyone could be a child abuser, and be aware of situations that could lead to abuse -- Resist advances made by child molesters to avoid being abused, and know that it is OK to tell adults "no," which many children feel they should not do out of respect for adults -- Report any molestation or attempted molestation immediately to parents or other trusted adults Boy Scout councils throughout the United States will also participate in a variety of activities to recognize April as "Youth Protection Month," including online leader training updates, unit discussions of youth protection information, viewing of youth protection videos, child ID kits and fingerprinting and more. Serving nearly 4.5 million young people between 7 and 20 years of age with more than 300 councils throughout the United States and its territories, the Boy Scouts of America is the nation's foremost youth program of character development and values-based leadership training. For more information on the BSA, please visit http://www.scouting.org

U.S. defends funds to Scouts http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chicago/chi-0604070285apr07,1,5146237.story http://tinyurl.com/fc8re Appeals court told believers not favored By Michael Higgins Tribune staff reporter Published April 7, 2006 The federal government's decision to spend about $7 million on a special Boy Scouts event does not improperly favor religious believers, despite the Scouts' policy that members affirm a duty to God, a government lawyer told a federal appeals court in Chicago on Thursday. The U.S. Department of Defense has historically supported the National Scout Jamboree, a 10-day event held every four years, but not because of the Scouts' religious stance, said attorney Lowell Sturgill Jr. "Any group can approach the military ... and request similar aid to what the Boy Scouts are getting," Sturgill told a three-judge panel of the 7th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals. "The plaintiffs haven't shown, on the record, that anybody has ever requested it and been denied." Sturgill squared off Thursday against American Civil Liberties Union lawyers, who argued that the spending policy favors believers over non-believers and is unconstitutional. In July, U.S. District Judge Blanche Manning agreed with the ACLU, and issued a court order that blocks the Defense Department from participating in the jamboree. Manning concluded that the Pentagon's participation violated the 1st Amendment because the Boy Scouts of America "excludes atheists and agnostics" and calls for members to believe in God. "No one except for the Boy Scouts can get this extraordinary aid," Adam Schwartz, attorney for the ACLU, argued Thursday. "The government has declared a winner without holding a race." Schwartz compared the Boy Scouts funding to, for example, a government decision to declare that all federal drug-rehabilitation funds must go to religion-based, 12-step programs. Rev. Eugene Winkler, a former pastor at the First United Methodist Church in Chicago, and others brought the lawsuit in 1999. Winkler said after the hearing Thursday that, though he is a former Scout and scoutmaster, he believes the government's spending on the event discriminates against non-believers. "Only kids who believe in God have this opportunity," Winkler said. "Kids who don't believe in God are excluded." Judges quizzed Schwartz about an earlier court ruling that allowed the government to pay for chain-link fencing, drinking fountains and other support for a mass by the Pope John Paul II in 1979 on the mall in Washington. They also asked about government aid to the Special Olympics and the Girl Scouts. Schwartz said no other group got comparable assistance.

John, thanx for the invite. I haven't been to KC since 1980, but next time I'm there, I'll look it up!

I have the Scout version DVD, and I saw the general version at the theater, and they look the same to me, but I couldn't swear by it. I wanted whatever extras were in the Scout version; frankly, it never occured to me that the movie itself might be different.

I used to live in Maryland and recall going to Camp Snyder for "Program Launch" in the spring. Even then (2001, 2002) it was very impressive. I've been in Texas since 2003, but if I ever get back to the DC-area, I plan to stop by and check out the "new" Camp Snyder. Sounds like a great place.

Under the current Tiger program (i.e., pre June 1, 2006), the boys earn their Tiger, then any time after that, they can earn their Bobcat. There is no reason to wait until June 1. Beginning June 1, 2006, they will earn the Bobcat before earning their Tiger rank, just as is the case for all other ranks and ages of Cub Scouts. Does that answer your "when" question?