fgoodwin

CP: While "most people" you know may feel one way or the other about BSA's membership policies, you should be careful generalizing from your own experience to that of the public at large. In fact, "most people" I know (to the extent I know how they feel at all about it) are perfectly happy with BSA's membership policies as-is and don't want to see them changed. Should I conclude that "most people" in general also feel that way?

To Muslim Girls, Scouts Offer a Chance to Fit In http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/28/us/28girlscout.html November 28, 2007 By NEIL MacFARQUHAR MINNEAPOLIS Sometimes when Asma Haidara, a 12-year-old Somali immigrant, wants to shop at Target or ride the Minneapolis light-rail system, she puts her Girl Scout sash over her everyday clothes, which usually include a long skirt worn over pants as well as a swirling head scarf. She has discovered that the trademark green sash with its American flag, troop number (3009) and colorful merit badges reduces the number of glowering looks she draws from people otherwise bothered by her traditional Muslim dress. When you say you are a girl scout, they say, Oh, my daughter is a girl scout, too, and then they dont think of you as a person from another planet, said Asma, a slight, serious girl with a bright smile. They are more comfortable about sitting next to me on the train. Scattered Muslim communities across the United States are forming Girl Scout troops as a sort of assimilation tool to help girls who often feel alienated from the mainstream culture, and to give Muslims a neighborly aura. Boy Scout troops are organized with the same inspiration, but often the leap for girls is greater because many come from conservative cultures that frown upon their participating in public physical activity. By teaching girls to roast hot dogs or fix a flat bicycle tire, Farheen Hakeem, one troop leader here, strives to help them escape the perception of many non-Muslims that they are different. Scouting is a way of celebrating being American without being any less Muslim, Ms. Hakeem said. I dont want them to see themselves as Muslim girls doing this Look at us, we are trying to be American, she said. No, no, no, they are American. It is not an issue of trying. The exact number of Muslim girl scouts is unknown, especially since, organizers say, most Muslim scouts belong to predominantly non-Muslim troops. Minneapolis is something of an exception, because a few years ago the Girl Scout Council here surveyed its shrinking enrollment and established special outreach coordinators for various minorities. Some 280 Muslim girls have joined about 10 predominantly Muslim troops here, said Hodan Farah, who until September was the Scout coordinator for the Islamic community. Nationally, the Boy Scouts of America count about 1,500 youths in 100 clubs of either Boy Scouts or Cub Scouts sponsored by Islamic organizations, said Gregg Shields, a spokesman for the organization. The Girl Scouts national organization, Girl Scouts of the U.S.A., has become flexible in recent years about the old trappings associated with suburban, white, middle-class Christian scouting. Many troops have done away with traditions like saying grace before dinner at camp, and even the Girl Scout Promise can be retooled as needed. On my honor I will try to serve Allah and my country, to help people and live by the Girl Scout law, eight girls from predominantly Muslim Troop 3119 in Minneapolis recited on one recent rainy Sunday before setting off for a cookout in a local park. Some differences were readily apparent, of course. At the cookout, Ms. Hakeem, a former Green Party candidate for mayor, negotiated briefly with one sixth grader, Asha Gardaad, who was fasting for the holy month of Ramadan. If you break your fast, will your mother get mad at me? Ms. Hakeem asked. Asha shook her head emphatically no. The troop leader distributed supplies: hot dogs followed by smores for dessert. All was halal that is, in adherence with the dietary requirements of Islamic law with the hot dogs made of beef rather than pork. It was Ashas first smore. Its delicious! she exclaimed, licking sticky goop off her fingers as thunder crashed outside the park shelter with its roaring fire. Its a good way to break my fast! Women trying to organize Girl Scout troops in Muslim communities often face resistance from parents, particularly immigrants from an Islamic culture like that of Somalia, where tradition dictates that girls do housework after school. In Nashville, where Ellisha King of Catholic Charities helps run a Girl Scout troop on a shoestring to assist Somali children with acculturation, most parents vetoed a camping trip, for example. They figured years spent as refugees in tents was enough camping, Ms. King recalled. But a more common concern among parents is that the Girl Scouts will somehow dilute Islamic traditions. They are afraid you are going to become a blue-eyed, blond-haired Barbie doll, said Asma, the girl who at times makes her sash everyday attire. Asma noted that her mother had asked whether she was joining some Christian cabal. She was afraid that if we hang out with Americans too much, the young immigrant said, it will change our culture or who we are. Troop leaders win over parents by explaining that various activities incorporate Muslim traditions. In Minneapolis, for instance, Ms. Hakeem helped develop the Khadija Club, named for the first wife of the Prophet Muhammad, which exposes older girls to the history of prominent Muslim women. Suboohi Khan, 10, won her Bismallah (in the name of God) ribbon by writing 4 of Gods 99 names in Arabic calligraphy and decorating them, as well as memorizing the Korans last verse, used for protection against gossips and goblins. Otherwise, she said, her favorite badge involved learning how to make body glitter and to see which colors look good on us and how to clean up our nails. Girl Scouts of the U.S.A. does not issue religious badges, but endorses those established by independent groups. Gulafshan K. Alavi started one such group, the Islamic Committee on Girl Scouting, in Stamford, Conn., in 1990. The demand for information about Muslim badges, Mrs. Alavi said, has grown to the point where this year she had the pamphlet listing her clubs requirements printed rather than sending out a photocopied flier. She also shipped up to 400 patches awarded to girls who study Ramadan traditions, she said, the most ever. Predominantly Muslim troops do accept non-Muslim members. In Minneapolis, Alexis Eastlund, 10, said other friends sometimes pestered her about belonging to a mostly Muslim troop, although she has known many of its members half her life. I never really thought of them as different, Alexis said. But other girls think that it is weird that I am Christian and hang out with a bunch of Muslim girls. I explain to them that they are the same except they have to wear a hijab on their heads. Ms. Farah, who served as an outreach coordinator in Minneapolis and remains active in the Scouts, said she used the organization as a platform to try to ease tensions in the community. Scraps between African-American and Somali girls prompted her to start a research project demonstrating to them that their ancestors all came from roughly the same place. Ms. Hakeem, the troop leader, said she tried to find projects to improve the girls self-esteem, like going through the Eddie Bauer catalog to cut out long skirts and other items that adhere to Islamic dress codes. All in all, scouting gives the girls a rare sense of belonging, troop leaders and members say. It is kind of cool to say that you are a girl scout, Asma said. It is good to have something to associate yourself with other Americans. I dont want people to think that I am a hermit, that I live in a cave, isolated and afraid of change. I like to be part of society. I like being able to say that I am a girl scout just like any other normal girl.

Nick, I was struck by the same thing: an atheist minister in the Unitarian Church. I must admit I have difficulty grasping such a concept . . .

Walking tour of churches preaches tolerance to Scouts http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07328/836415-85.stm Saturday, November 24, 2007 By Ann Rodgers, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette While others slept off the turkey yesterday morning, 375 Boy Scouts and their families hiked through Oakland and Shadyside, visiting houses of worship to hear how the faith traditions understand the 10 Commandments. It was intended to be a lesson in tolerance, and it was. They heard from Jews, Catholics, Baptists, Christian Scientists, Hindus, Buddhists and even an atheist Unitarian. For John Welsh, 17, from Bethel Park, it was about learning to interpret differences. "You see that all of the religions are based on the same principles, but you also see how they vary, and what the differences are," he said. "It helps you look at something that is ornate and find out what is behind it, or look at something that is plain and why it was made that way." They were following the Jewish order of the commandments -- Catholics and Protestants each have their own rendering -- and started at Rodef Shalom Congregation. There, Associate Rabbi Sharyn Henry explained that, in Hebrew, these verses are not "commandments" but "utterances." One reason, she said, is that the first one on the Jewish list is "I am the Lord thy God, who brought you out of slavery to be your God." "That isn't a command but a statement," she said. "You can't command faith." C.W. Kreimer, who organized this second Ten Commandments walk, led the Scouts down the street to Holy Spirit Byzantine Catholic Church. Mr. Kreimer, a second generation Eagle Scout, is chairman of the Jewish Committee on Scouting for the Greater Pittsburgh Council. He heard of similar walks at a national meeting and brought the idea to Pittsburgh. In a world torn by strife, "it's a great way to build tolerance," he said. The Scouts would visit nine houses of worship, where a religious leader would reflect on one of the commandments and what their faith had to say about it. Although the Hindu and Buddhist faiths are not based on the Bible, their representatives at Heinz Chapel spoke on what their traditions had to say about the principle behind a commandment. The Scouts were slated to sing patriotic songs at some of the locations, and chose "My Country 'Tis of Thee" for the Buddhist stop because it doesn't mention God. Most Buddhists do not believe in a god. The Islamic Center of Pittsburgh was not on this year's hike, in part because it recently hosted the Scouts for another values-oriented event, Mr. Kreimer said. After the elegant simplicity of Rodef Shalom's interior, the Scouts were engulfed in brilliantly colored imagery of Jesus and the saints at Holy Spirit. A 40-foot image of Mary with the Christ Child greeted them. Msgr. Russell Duker explained that Catholics understand the 10 Commandments to be the basis of all law, and that they are written on the hearts even of those who have never read the Bible. "But there has to be someone who is in charge, with the authority to judge us. That is God," said Msgr. Duker, who was speaking on "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." Above the front door at their next stop, First Unitarian-Univeralist Church, was a banner proclaiming, "Civil marriage is a civil right." The Boy Scouts of America have vigorously defended their right not to have openly gay scoutmasters, which has cooled their relationship with the national Unitarian-Universalist Association. But that wasn't an issue for Jeff Liebman, the student minister assigned to speak to them. This congregation has a good relationship with the local council, he said. "We are still very up on scouting," he said. The Scouts also do not accept atheists as scout leaders, but Mr. Liebman showed no hesitation in telling the Scouts that he is an atheist. Unitarian-Universalism, he said, is so broad that it can include people whose faith is in something other than God. "Atheism and religion are not mutually exclusive," he said, explaining that be believes in the power of humanity. His commandment was on on taking God's name in vain, and he admitted that he swears quite a bit. But he also doesn't believe that this commandment is about curse words but about dishonoring or treating lightly that which you claim to value the most. Mike Surbaugh, scout executive for the Greater Pittsburgh Council, said a parent asked him later why they had included the Unitarian church. "We want to show our Scouts that there are differences in what people believe. That is what makes America great. I'm glad we made that stop," Mr. Surbaugh said. At St. Paul Cathedral they were greeted by the Rev. Thomas Burke, who wore his Eagle Scout pin. "Scouting is good for the morals of our country," Father Burke said. He pointed to an American eagle in one of the stained glass windows. It symbolizes religious freedom, he said. "No matter what religious faith we practice, in America we do not have to be afraid to worship God," he said. For Vernon Smith, an Adventure Crew leader from Crafton, just visiting St. Paul was a highlight. A member of an AME Zion church, he had often seen the cathedral on TV, and wanted to see its interior. "It's awesome," he said. "The video doesn't do it justice." Buddies Steve Dull, from Lawrenceville, and Demetri Brown, of the Hill District, both 15, decided to brave the cold morning because Steve went last year and enjoyed it. He still recalled his awe when the rabbi at Rodef Shalom showed them a Torah scroll, the original form of the Bible. "I had never seen a church use a scroll," said Steve, a Lutheran. Demetri, who came because Steve recommended it, encountered perspectives he didn't know existed. He still was puzzling over the atheist minister at the Unitarian Church. "I would have liked to have asked him to elaborate," he said. -- Ann Rodgers can be reached at arodgers@post-gazette.com or 412-263-1416. First published on November 24, 2007 at 12:00 am

Joni4TA: It happens that I am in the Alamo Area Council and I staffed our last Cedar Badge course. "Cedar Badge" is our name for NYLT. It is taught by youth for other youth. We have a few adults on staff to keep the boys in line and on task; otherwise, the course is run by the youth staff. I don't know how other troops do it, but in our troop, the SM decides who will be invited to Cedar Badge. You would hope he would make good choices, but whereas we adults tend to think of WB as an "honor", I don't think most boys feel that way about Cedar Badge. Its just another notch on their belt, as is OA (which most never bother with after sewing on the pocket flap). Regarding WB cost: our course is $160; like you say, "expensive" is in the eye of the beholder, but I've never seen a business management seminar that lasted six days for $160 (not to say such courses don't exist -- just that I've never seen one). NYLT uses many of the same concepts that adults learn in WB21C. And the boys who go through Cedar Badge / NYLT will hear those same concepts in TLT and in fact make good instructors for that course (assuming they actually retain anything they learned). If you can afford to go to WB, I highly encourage it -- ask around for scholarships or maybe your unit will help with the cost. Its worth it. "I used to be an Owl . . ." SR-552

Are you really limited to a choice between two troops? There may be a third option: start your own troop. Here are some resources for starting a new unit: (1) "New Unit Organization Process" (34196A): http://tinyurl.com/br9le http://www.scouting.org/relationships/34196/index.html (2) "William D. Boyce New Unit Organizer Award" (04-515): http://tinyurl.com/3avod8 Yes, there's a knot for organizing new units, but the form is more than an application -- it includes very useful information re: how to organize a new unit. (3) "New Unit Organization Kit" (13-563) s/b available at your Scout Office (I haven't been able to find a copy online) You'd have to find a willing charter sponsor, and be sure you have enough boys & parents willing to step up. It will be tough to start a new unit, but having started a Cub Pack, I know how rewarding it can be. If that's a viable option, be sure to work with your DE and District membership committee, and try to get an experienced UC assigned to help you along. Good luck

I agree with emb021: temporary patches may be worn on the back of teh MB sash, according to teh Insignia Guide. Its my personal opinion that loading up a bunch of temporary patches on the back of the MB sash looks horrible, but its allowed officially and many boys do it (including my son).

robvio, welcome to the forums. You ask how your troop will benefit if you take the time & effort to go to WB21C? My answer is: that's entirely up to you. Without giving away too much of what you'll see and hear at your course, let me simply add to what others have already said. You will write a "ticket" which is essentially a project (or series of goals) that you and your WB patrol troop guide agree upon. YOU decide who will be the beneficiary of your efforts, and YOU decide what your project / goals will be. I wouldn't be too anxious about specifics until you get into your course, but suffice it to say "its within every one of us" to benefit our units as much as we want by what we bring back from WB21C. In fact, that's the expectation. But defining the benefit and how much your unit benefits is up to you. Fred "I used to be an Owl . . ." SR-552

Lisabob: The American Girl line of dolls is unrelated to AHG, as far as I know. The line of dolls predated AHG by a decade (more or less). My daughter was a Girl Scout and had a few American Girl dolls, and again, as far as I know, there is no relationship between AHG and American Girl dolls. My point about the size of SS is that you mentioned they were not a viable alternative because of their size (lack of local units). I think that's a chicken-and-egg argument -- if they are small, its because the people who complain about BSA are staying in BSA rather than helping SS grow by actually joining them. So its the very people complaining about the lack of a viable alternative who are responsible for the lack of viability of groups like SS by not joining them. Look at it this way: if people would join SS if only SS were bigger (i.e., have a lot of units nearby), how exactly is SS supposed to get any bigger if they don't join?

I'm an ASM in my son's troop and also active at the district level as a UC and on the training team, so I've had a chance to observe both species of "Man Scouts" (the troop species as well as the district-council species). I think many Man Scouts at the district-council level move on from a troop funtion to a district-council function when their sons leave Scouting, but they want to stay involved. W/o a son in a unit, the Man Scout feels he might better contribute at the district-council level. And while many start out with the best of intentions, I think after being away from the unit-level program for a few years, they either forget what its like to be "in the trenches" or the program changes after they leave and they are no longer experts in the current program (hence the war stories "this is how I did it way back when . . ."). I think with a little effort, the damage from district-council Man Scouts can be limited. The greater risk is the damage done by troop-level Man Scouts, because in their efforts to be Super Scouters, they actually hold back the development of the youth we are supposed to be serving. I don't know what can be done about troop-level Man Scouts, but I know they exist. Anyway, that's my 2

Reposted with permission from a post by Mark Ray to the Scoutmaster Tips Yahoo email list: ================= Posted by: "Mark Ray" Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:01 pm ((PST)) Relationships Yield Results On the Monday after Thanksgiving, our chartered organization (Christ Church United Methodist in Louisville) will tear down the old house our troop has been meeting in for at least 15 years. That's the bad news. The good news is that we've already moved into renovated space in the church's old fellowship hall. The great news is that the church footed the entire bill for renovating the space. All we paid for was hooking up our computers and phone line. We were even able to scavenge furniture around the church. Why were we so lucky? For one simple reason: We work constantly to remind folks that we are part of the church's outreach ministry-not an outside group that meets in the church building. We celebrate Scout Sunday each year, we support other church functions (such as an annual church-wide day of service), we regularly promote Scouting in the church's newsletter and new-member packets, we make sure we always have church members in leadership positions within the troop, and we respond promptly to any concerns church leaders have. So how are your relations with your chartered organization?

In the other thread, someone mentioned that Boy Scouts don't include religion as part of advancement (as opposed to Cub Scouts and Venturing, who do). Although Boy Scouts do not require earning the religious medal in order to advance, the troop does provide the office of Chaplain Aid as a POR in order to meet the leadership requirement for Star, Life & Eagle. Now, how troops go about implementing and using chaplain aids is a program matter. Our troop does a very good job of using chaplain aids, even though our record of earning religious medals is spotty, at best.

Lisabob: Have you heard of American Heritage Girls? They are an alternative to Girl Scouts. Like the folks who formed Spiral Scouts, rather than simply complain about GSUSA policy, they actually went out and did something constructive: they formed an alternative organization. Now, is AHG any more or less a "viable" alternative than SS? I have no idea, but I doubt if AHG started with any significant advantage in terms of infrastructure, training, potential members, etc. And if SS hasn't grown, who's fault is that? Given the interminable bickering about BSA membership policies, one would think SS would have a ready-made universe of potential members -- so why haven't the people complaining about BSA put some action behind their words and flocked to SS? I have no idea -- but to claim that SS isn't big enough to have nearby units is putting the cart before the horse, in my opinion. If SS is to get big enough to have lots of local units, then people need to have the courage of their convictions and join them, thereby making it bigger and attracting even more members. I wish SS all the best -- like many others, I think BSA needs an alternative.

Scouts may be thrifty, but some leaders are well paid http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,5143,695226688,00.html http://tinyurl.com/2lbbzq Many professional Scouters earn 6-figure salaries across the U.S. By Lee Davidson Deseret Morning News Published: November 11, 2007 A Scout is thrifty, the Boy Scout Law teaches. Many adult leaders put that into practice by volunteering without pay and sacrificing precious time and vacation weeks for camps. But guess how much the Great Salt Lake Council pays its full-time, professional Scout executive, Paul Moore. It is $214,000 a year (including a salary of $194,458 and benefits of $19,544). In comparison, the salary of Vice President Dick Cheney is $215,700 a year, and the salaries of Chief Justice John Roberts and House Speaker Nancy Pelosi are both $212,100. "I know people may drop their toast in their cereal when they read that," Moore said. "But I'm not embarrassed by my compensation. I've worked very hard and been very successful in this business," he said. "This is a life's work for me that has purchased 60 to 80 hours (a week) of my time for all of my working life. ... If I were not making that salary here, I would probably be making a larger salary in the BSA somewhere else." He's right. Other similar Scout leaders nationally often make much more. At the top of that in 2005, the last year for which public data are readily available, was then-national Scout executive Roy Williams. His compensation was nearly $1 million (including a salary of $552,379 and benefits of $436,040). President Bush was paid $400,000 that year. Such information of special interest in Utah, home of the nation's largest Scout councils as measured by membership in traditional troops and packs is found in the Forms 990 that tax-exempt organizations must file with the Internal Revenue Service. An analysis of such forms for nearly 300 Boy Scout councils nationwide by the Deseret Morning News reveals: Boy Scouts both in Utah and nationally tend to pay their top executives significantly more than do other large, nonprofit groups that serve youths. Boy Scouts say their organization requires more skills and longer hours than the other groups. The three Scout councils in Utah tend to have many more executives than average with salaries above $50,000 a year. Officials here say that is because many have long tenure and are responsible for training many times more volunteers than average because of the high number of Scouts here (where the LDS Church makes Scouting a formal part of its youth program). While pay for top Scout executives in Utah is high compared to salaries for such professions here as doctors and lawyers, those executives still generally receive less than fellow Scout executives elsewhere in similarly sized councils. Such salaries come while Friends of Scouting fund-raising drives here are different than anywhere else. In Utah, LDS Church congregations are assigned to visit all homes in their boundaries to solicit funds. Quotas are often set. If congregations fail to meet them, they may not receive discounts for camps and supplies that others enjoy. Elsewhere nationally, Scout leaders merely tend to explain needs to parents and seek funds without quotas. Councils in Utah tend to spend a higher percentage of their money on fund raising than average while they spend a comparatively lower percentage on services. Officials say that is due, in part, to a need to raise money to buy or develop new camps. Current camps can handle only a quarter to half of the units in councils here. Other youth groups Compared to other large youth groups, Boy Scout executives both in Utah and nationally are paid more, according to 2005 compensation figures. Utah has three Scout councils. Moore's 2005 compensation was $201,600 (since raised to $214,000) to lead the Great Salt Lake Council based in Salt Lake City. Thomas Powell (recently retired) was paid $161,413 to lead the Utah National Parks Council based in Orem. Rick Barnes was paid $122,153 to lead the Trapper Trails Council based in Ogden. All were paid more than leaders of other local youth-serving groups. Elaine Gause, CEO of the Utah Girl Scouts, received $100,692 in compensation that year. Compensation for leaders of six Boys & Girls Clubs in Utah ranged from a low of $16,955 (for the director of one in Brigham City) to a high of $111,281 (for director of one in Salt Lake City). At the national level, compensation of then-national Scout executive Williams (recently retired) totaled $988,409 in 2005. (Of that, $552,379 was salary and $436,030 was for deferred retirement benefits and compensation, use of a car, life insurance and other benefits.) Then-assistant Scout executive Ken Connolly was given more $1.08 million in compensation, largely because of large contributions to his retirement. In comparison, national Boys & Girls Club President Roxanne Spillet received $868,604; national Girl Scouts CEO Kathy Cloninger received $629,401; national 4-H Club President Donald Floyd Jr. received $572,027; national Big Brothers-Big Sisters President Judy Vredenburgh received $273,236; and Camp Fire USA CEO Stewart Smith received $199,431. Of note, the BSA says it serves 4.6 million youths nationally. Among other groups, two say they serve more: the 4-H Club says it serves 6.5 million and Boys & Girls Clubs serve 4.8 million. Other groups serve fewer than the BSA: Girl Scouts serve 3.7 million; Camp Fire USA serves 750,000; and Big Brothers-Big Sisters serves 230,000. Around the nation Gregg Shields, spokesman for the national BSA, said Boy Scouts tend to pay more on the national level because they have a more complicated organization that provides more services than most other groups. "Without any disrespect to other youth-serving organizations, BSA is unique in many ways," he said. That includes overseeing thousands of local groups, vast properties and camps, "insurance, magazines for youths and adults, and program offerings such as national and international jamborees that no other organization can tout." He said, "BSA's 7,000 employees represent one employee for each 171 volunteers and one employee for each 657 youths. These are extraordinary numbers for a service organization." Shields said Williams, who had 33 years of experience in 2005, was worth his salary as he oversaw a budget of $170 million and 304 local Scout councils. Shields said, "Williams led the organization through a difficult transition period. This included finding new sponsors for packs, troops and crews that had been chartered by public schools." Also, he said Scouts increased financial stability during his tenure and enjoyed recent growth in the number of youths and adults involved in Scouting. Also, Shields said all BSA pay ranges are set by volunteer boards and reviewed by independent third-party compensation experts regularly. The national organization is funded largely through registration paid by individual Scouts (the LDS Church itself pays registration for Scouts in units that it sponsors). Local differences Locally, Scout leaders say their salaries are higher than other youth groups because their organizations are larger and their jobs require longer hours and more skills. Powell, the retired executive from the Utah National Parks Council, said, "When people asked what I do, I said name any 10 careers and a Scout executive touches them." He said that includes being an educator, human relations director, salesman, promoter, organizer, disciplinarian "and sometimes a security guard, a plumber, a custodian or a garbage man if that is what the job requires." He adds, "Most professional Scouters leave the position simply because their spouse can't take the hours or the schedule or the living circumstances that we often find ourselves in. They may want their husband home at 5 p.m. or on the weekends, but that is just not the case in professional Scouting." A big difference in Utah is how many Scouts each of the three councils serve. The councils in Orem, Salt Lake City and Ogden rank No. 1, 2 and 4 respectively nationally in how many youths are enrolled in traditional Cubs, Boy Scouts, Varsity and Venturing programs. (However, other councils rank higher in total youths served because of in-school programs that have relatively little following in Utah.) Another big difference is that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has chosen to make Scouting its activity arm for young males. So virtually every congregation sponsors Scout groups. The church also "calls" or appoints leaders, who tend to rotate every two years or so, creating more need for training here than elsewhere, officials say. Dave Ricks, volunteer president of the Trapper Trails Council, said that in other places nationally, once Scout leaders are trained they tend to stay in Scouting for life. But in Utah, where LDS callings change regularly, "training is constant," putting a heavy load on executives here. Paid well Not just the top officials at Utah's Scout councils are paid well. Many others at those councils are, too. The Great Salt Lake Council, for example, ranks No. 2 nationally for how many of its executives earn more than $50,000 a year. It lists 23. Only the Greater New York City Council has more, 40, and the National Capitol Area Council around Washington, D.C., ties with the Salt Lake council. The council in Orem ties for 10th in the nation, with 14 employees making more than $50,000 a year, and the council in Ogden ties for 68th with five, according to 2005 data (although Barnes says it now has 13 who make more than $50,000). Moore says so many are well paid in his council because many have long tenure. The starting salary nationally for new, entry-level Scout executives is $36,700, and the post requires a bachelor's degree. Moore says considering that starting point, "you see that anybody who has been with the organization 10 years or so are going to be up there." He adds, "We have people of long tenure. And our typical district executive serves 200 to 300 units, and 3,000 to 5,000 youth members in our program. The national numbers for that are about 1,500 youths and 100 or fewer units." He said a smaller staff that is more experienced and highly compensated accomplishes as much as a bigger group with more entry-level people. Scott Baird, volunteer president of the Utah National Parks Council in Orem, said, "I wish that we had more that we were paying above $50,000 because it would reflect greater maturity and experience" and would help prevent them from leaving to other more lucrative Scout jobs elsewhere. He said in local board meetings where salaries are discussed, "I've never had a single person in all of those budget meetings ... say, 'Are we paying our professionals too much?' We had several who said, 'Are we paying our professionals well enough to attract good people and to keep them?' "That's an indicator to me that not only are we paying fair compensation, but it is the desire of our constituency to do so," he said. Baird adds, "We do some bad things to our professionals. ... We kill them; we overwork them. Nationwide, an average unit-serving executive would serve on the high side maybe 50 to 60 units. In the Utah National Parks Council, it is 200-plus units." Of note, councils nationally of sizes similar to those in Utah (according to BSA rankings) average 12 employees making more than $50,000 a year. The average among all 293 councils for whom Forms 990 could be located was just two employees earning more than that amount. By comparison Professional Scouting appears to be one of the better-paying occupations in Utah. The Utah Department of Workforce Services reports that the highest average salary for any occupation it surveys is $193,960 annually for obstetricians/gynecologists. Moore's 2005 compensation (salary and benefits) was higher at $201,000 (and is currently $214,000). Moore has 36 years of experience and a bachelor's degree. Obstetricians need a bachelor's plus four years of medical school and four years of residency. The 2005 compensation (salary and benefits) of Powell, who retired in September as chief of the Orem-based Utah National Parks Council, was $161,413. That is higher than the average salary that the state reported for all physicians here, $153,920. The 2005 compensation of Barnes at the Ogden-based Trapper Trails Council was $122,153. That is a bit below what the state reported as the average wage here for a lawyer, at $123,926. It is a bit above the average salary for psychiatrists, at $120,598. The new entry-level wage for Scout executives nationally is now $36,700. That is just below the average Utah wage for all jobs in 2005 $37,700 as reported by U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics. While the top professional Scouters in Utah may make a lot compared to other professions here, they may be underpaid compared to leaders of other councils of similar size. The BSA groups councils into seven different size categories based on the number of overall youths living in an area, youths in traditional Scout programs, youths in all Scouting programs, number of Scout professionals and total operating income. The three Utah councils are in the second-largest of the groupings, just below the "super-sized" councils. The average 2005 compensation for top Scout executives at councils in their category nationally was $238,439 meaning all the Utah executives earned less than average. The highest compensation in councils of that size was $639,556 for David Larkin, Scout executive of the Atlanta Area Council. The lowest was for Barnes locally in Ogden. In fact, 90 Scout executives in smaller councils are paid more than Barnes (who has 28 years experience) including 10 councils that are grouped among the smallest category. Of note, salaries are set by volunteer boards overseeing local councils. But the national BSA gives them ranges of high and low salaries that are acceptable for each position. Pay is also based on performance. Moore notes that larger councils also usually look for someone who has experience leading a smaller council. He said a normal practice is to give them about a 15 percent raise to move to the larger council. (Moore has led three different councils.) What is fair? Scout officials defend their comparatively high salaries. Baird, volunteer president of the Orem-based council, says, "Data has meaning in context. So to someone who is reading your newspaper and is earning $30,000 to $40,000 a year, yes I think it would sound like a lot of money to them." But he compares a council Scout executive to a superintendent of a school district. "We have 68,000 students in our educational institution (council)," he said. "They are instructed by 35,000 volunteers. That is massive." So he said a Scout executive earning $161,000, as Powell did there at the end of his career before retirement, is not much different than the $178,000 a year that he says the superintendent of Alpine School District receives, or the $127,000 for the superintendent of the Provo district or the $132,000 paid in the Nebo district. He said comparisons to other Scout councils show pay here is at correct levels. "We also believe it is fair by the standard of other professions of similar standing in our community." Ricks, the volunteer president of the Ogden-based council and a retired vice president of Browning firearms, said he has seen both in business and Scouting that, "If you don't pay well, you will not get top talent. If you don't get top people, you will just fail." He says if Utah councils do not pay well, the top executives will simply go to other councils of similar size and notes that councils here directly compete with possibly more attractive places to live such as Los Angeles, Atlanta, Seattle, Denver, Orlando and Baltimore. Moore says his accomplishments also help justify his salary. He says membership in his council grew 19.4 percent in three years; customer complaints went from five or so a day to less than one a week; it has reached out to form many new units by faiths other than the LDS Church; its fiscal rating by the BSA went from unsatisfactory to outstanding; and its assets increased 36 percent in three years. Fund drives A large percentage of money to run councils including paying the comparatively high salaries comes from "Friends of Scouting" drives that in Utah have quotas, potential punishments and church connections not seen elsewhere nationally. In other states for such drives, Scout leaders visit local troop or pack meetings to explain what councils do, why they need money and to ask for donations. Drives in Utah are far different. For example, Moore says the Great Salt Lake Council gives "suggested" amounts that LDS stakes (or groups of congregations) should raise. They divide that among congregations, or wards. Wards are then asked to contact every home in their area, whether LDS or not, to solicit funds to meet that goal. Bishops and other local LDS leaders are often among those personally asking members and neighbors for money. If a congregation does not meet that quota or produce "measurable improvement" over previous results, as an information sheet says its Scouts cannot be in the "Gold Club." Members in it receive 10 percent discounts for summer camps and 10 percent off many supplies sold at Scout stores. "This is not a penalty per se for not reaching the goal," Moore said, adding it is just a way to thank those who do. "Nearly 10 percent of what we raise through Friends of Scouting goes back as discounts." He adds that the council tries to keep annual increases in its Friends of Scouting goals small. "If you go out and achieve the suggested amount, we are not going to look at that and say, 'Oh, it was too easy,' and bump it up the next year." The Ogden-based Trapper Trails Council also uses quotas. But it does not penalize those who do not achieve them, or reward those who do. Barnes said, "We just up front have a lower camp price. So go out and do your best, and we're going to offer you the most competitive camp price in the Intermountain West." The Provo-based Utah National Parks Council in the past used quotas, Baird said, but has stopped doing so recently. "The problem with quotas was a ward would go out and raise money until they reached it, and then would stop not giving an opportunity for all the other people served by that unit to participate," said John Gailey, marketing director for that council. Mike Plowman, finance director for that council, said, "If there's a new quota, so to speak, it is: reach every home in your boundary. That is because we've discovered through the years that we contact 30 percent of households, which to us is unacceptable because we feel like everybody deserves the opportunity to give." Moore said he has been around Friends of Scouting drives "all my life, but this is different" using the LDS Church to attempt to contact every household in Utah. "We have a tremendous blessing that comes to us because of the great relationship with the LDS Church," he said. "We are done (with Friends of Scouting) before most councils in America have even started their campaign." Fund raising vs. services Nationally, about 83 percent of spending by Boy Scout councils goes to programs and services for Scouts. Two of the three Utah councils spent less than average, according to 2005 disclosures. The Ogden-based council spent 78.5 percent of its money on services (ranking 246 out of the 294 evaluated). The Orem-based council spent 81 percent (ranking 205th). And the Great Salt Lake Council matched the national average at 83 percent (ranking 160th). Also nationally, about 8 percent of spending by local councils goes for fund raising. But again, two of three councils in Utah spent much more than that. The Ogden-based Trapper Trails Council spent 15 percent on fund raising (12th highest in the nation), and the Great Salt Lake Council spends 11.4 percent (35th highest in the nation). The Orem-based Utah National Parks Council spends 5.3 percent, or less than average. All three Utah councils said they made errors in 2005 reporting that made it appear they spent more on fund raising and less on services than they actually did. They said later studies on how employees divide their time showed they should have attributed less of their salaries to fund raising and management and more to services. But all three also say they are conducting major fund-raising efforts, in part to help buy or develop new camps which explains some of the higher fund-raising costs. "We're able to serve less than 30 percent of our membership at summer camp," Moore said of the Great Salt Lake Council, meaning most of its units must go to camps run by other councils or strike out on their own. "We need to get our hands on properties that will allow us to serve more kids." Baird at the Orem-based council said he figures camps it owns can serve between 25 percent and 40 percent of its Scouts. "It's woefully inadequate." He said even when property has been donated, his council has had trouble raising enough just to develop it. "We had a substantial donation for a camp of 600 acres several years ago," he said. "We still don't have it opened to regular camp use ... because we lack the development capital to finish that camp." Barnes at the Trapper Trails Council says it actually has enough developed camps to be able to serve about half the Scouts there. He says it actually owns enough undeveloped land around them to build enough camps to meet all likely needs for years to come. "We don't have to buy more land, just improve and develop what we have." A final word Scout leaders worry that examination of their salaries could hurt efforts to raise funds needed for the well-known good purposes of Scouting or make them look greedy. "I'm very concerned about this information from the standpoint that it comes across to people like I am here out of greed ... that people who have felt that I was acting out of a desire to help them and their kids succeed may look at this through different eyes," Moore said, brushing away some tears that came to his eyes. "I have made sure that they have received great value," he said. "I'm not asking for or trying to be at the level that I could be at some other venues. I wanted to come here. I was not looking for more money." He added that Scouting "is a treasured part of this community, and I would hate to think that my compensation damages in any way our ability to make a difference in kids' lives. But I realize this is part of what goes with the territory."

Bob T: welcome to the Forums. I have no doubt what you say is true; OTOH, I my son used the same Cub Belt (after replacing the Tiger buckle with a Cub buckle) from 2001 until he crossed over in 2005 with no problems. He's had the same Boy Scout belt since joining the troop in '05 with no trouble. Now, getting him to FIND his belt on troop meeting nights is altogether another issue!

I am aware that some chartering organizations (e.g., the Catholic Church) have their own version of YPT, and perhaps even require that volunteer leaders in Catholic-sponsored units also take the Catholic YPT (I'm not Catholic, so someone please correct me if I'm wrong). If that's correct, I think its a great policy. I'm Episcopalian -- the Episcopal Church also has a version of YPT, but the scope of the required coverage is limited to paid staff only (e.g., youth ministers, church school teachers & admins, etc.). Volunteer Sunday School teachers and Scout volunteers (for example) are not required to take it. I decided to take the course anyway, just to see what was covered. It was a very good course, much more extensive than the BSA course. But I can see why the Church doesn't mandate it for volunteers -- enforcing additional training requirements might scare them off. OTOH, I can see a child predator happily going through the training w/o batting an eye and never tipping off his existence to the other adult trainees. That's why its so important that units ensure the YOUTH are trained to recognize a dangerous (or potentially dangerous) situation and how to respond to it. And of course, strict enforcement of 2-deep on outings and no one-at-one at any time is so critically important.

Eagledad: I was very happy to read your post. I am aware of some troops and SMs that look upon the den chief POR as something less than a "real" POR. I see it as just the opposite: as a perfect introductory POR for that young FC Scout working toward Star. One of the stated reasons SMs are biased against assigning Scouts to be DCs is because the service they perform is not in direct assistance to the troop, i.e., they help a den, not a patrol, and by serving as a DC, they are not available to serve as a chaplain aide, QM, or other POR which provides direct service to the troop. Another complaint I've heard is that SMs can't monitor the DC's job because he necessarily does it away from the troop (and away from the SM's ability to observe). In addition, some troops have implemented additional "qualifications" to serve as a DC (I won't call them additional requirements because such are clearly not allowed, and since troops are in fact doing these, they by definition must NOT be additional requirements, right?): Some troops require the Scout to be at least Star rank to serve as a DC (I guess the thinking is that FC is too young to serve as a mentor to Cubs), and second, the Scout may not serve as DC for two consecutive terms (which, for those troops that use six-month terms, basically eliminates any possibility that the Scout may earn the DC Service Cord). I think such shortsighted views ultimately hurt the troop in the long run: in one troop that I know that has such policies, the number of Webelos bridging in the spring has gone from 30 (2005) to 15 (2006) to 5 (last spring). The trend is not good. Placing such hurdles to serving as DC has basically put this troop in an "out-of-sight, out-of-mind" posture with surrounding packs (in fact, its sister pack, chartered by the same CO, has crossed only one boy in the last two years, and only one is planning to cross in the spring, but only because his older brother is already in the troop). As far as I know, the "feeder" pack hasn't had a DC from the troop in at least three years. I'm glad that not all SMs fail to see the benefit of the DC POR. As others have said, the DC POR can be a wonderful learning experience for both the Scout and the Cubs, if the Scout is coached properly, and given a meaningful opportunity to show leadership in the den.

Trying to prove a negative is impossible -- in other words, if you look for something that doesn't exist, but you don't know it doesn't exist, when do you stop looking? Does the fact that you didn't find what you're looking for after "n" searches mean you've proven it doesn't exist? Or will you find it on your n+1st search? My point is this: the reason you can't find National guidance on the expiration period for YPT is because THERE IS NO NATIONAL GUIDANCE ON THE EXPIRATION FOR YPT! Anybody who tells you otherwise bears the burden of proof -- its not up to you to prove their case. If someone claims there is a definite 2 (or 3 or whatever) year renewal requirement, make them quote chapter and verse -- I guarantee you they won't be able to do it. Let me ask it differently: if National really DID have a standard renewal for YPT, why isn't it printed on the card? Why do they make it so hard to answer the question? I'll tell you why: because no such requirement exists (at least not from National). Councils may have their own requirements, and some summer camps provide their own definition of "recent" (e.g., within six months, or a year, or whatever). This is taking on the life of another Scouting urban legend . . .

Perry book to tout Scout values http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/metro/stories/MYSA103107.10B.PerryBook.31f57c2.html http://tinyurl.com/2a97dx 10/30/2007 10:11 PM CDT Peggy Fikac, Express-News AUSTIN Add another title to Gov. Rick Perry's resume: author of a book defending Boy Scout values against "lawsuit-happy do-gooders." The GOP governor, who proudly wears his Eagle Scout pin on his lapel, has written with some assistance a book on scouting that paints the organization as a leading indicator in the battle between right and wrong. The book isn't due until February, but Perry described it in remarks Tuesday, referring to a U.S. Supreme Court decision in a lawsuit brought by a gay man who was denied a post as assistant scoutmaster. The court said in 2000 that the Boy Scouts and other private groups can set membership standards, but Perry said the Scouts have since been denied the use of some facilities. The case is one of a number that have been brought against the Boy Scouts. "At its core, this war is really not about the Boy Scouts. The Scouts are merely a listening post on the perimeter, sounding the early alarm on other impending attacks on our values," Perry said in a speech to the Boy Scouts of America Capitol Area Council, which gave him the group's Distinguished Citizen Award. Perry whose conservative credentials have been questioned after his endorsement of more liberal GOP presidential contender Rudy Giuliani said he can be counted among the Scouts' defenders. "I will plant my own flag in this war when a book I have written on scouting is published," he said. "I hope to let the world know that this conflict isn't just an intellectual exercise: It is a battle for the very future of our country." Civil rights lawyer Jim Harrington also an Eagle Scout called Perry's focus "a travesty." Harrington, director of the Texas Civil Rights Project, disagrees with the Boy Scouts' prohibition on gay people as leaders, saying the group instead should focus on whether a person may be a danger regardless of sexual orientation. But Harrington sees the organization itself as valuable. "What the Boy Scouts should be about, and what I always figured we were about ... (is) bringing everyone into the community, accepting differences even differences that you don't understand or necessarily agree with to make a better society," he said. "And to teach boys how to work with each other ... not to teach them hatred, and not to teach them division." Perry spokesman Robert Black said Perry has been talking about writing such a book for years. While he had some help from a source whom Black refused to name, Black added, "He put a lot of it down on paper himself." Black wouldn't divulge the book's publisher or title. -- pfikac@express-news.net

WHat exactly are you looking for? Can you point to examples of other Scouting Associations that have similar material?

I agree with Beavah, I don't sweat the small stuff. As a UC, however, I try the uniform completely and correctly -- but I don't go around berating others for not doing the same. If asked, however, I will point them to the official source on proper uniform wear. I'm amazed at how many units don't have even an old copy of the Insignia Guide in their unit libraries.

The emergency committee meeting will start in a little under three hours. Thanx to all for your very sound advice -- I will consider everything you said as I observe the meeting (liek a good UC, I will be there to listen and offer support, but I hope they aren't looking to me to solve the problem!). I want to answer a few of your questions -- but like I said, I don't want to compromise anyone's privacy by getting too much into specifics. Yes, the DE is aware of the situation. He was brought into the loop by the CC, when the CC copied me on a message to the DE asking for guidance on the issue. The CO (I think it was the COR, not the IH) notifed the DE that the CO wants a new CM. Apparently, the CO (again, not sure if it was the IH or COR) has had issues in the past with CM. The CM's job often conflicts with his ability to attend committee or pack meetings. The CC tells me she has planned and hosted the last few pack meetings, because if she hadn't, the boys would not have had a pack meeting due to the negligence of the CM (understand, I'm hearing the CC's version of events, I haven't talked to the CM). Although I've left messages with the CM, he hasn't called me back (the CC said she got the same lack of response from the CM, and so have other pack leaders). Given his lack of engagement, and his history with the CO, I can kinda see why the CO and pack want a new CM. I just wish I could hear the CM's side of the story. The CM's wife, an ACM, tells me she has no idea what the others are saying about her husband, but she thinks the pack is ganging up on him. This whole mess sounds like a little "Peyton Place" (you Boomers will know the reference!), and the reason I feel like I've failed the pack is because I knew there were issues between the CC and CM, and still didn't step in soon enough to avert this result. For those out there who see the UC position as a paper job for old-time Scouters, I can assure you it isn't -- but I hope I'm not scaring off any potential new UCs -- its really a great job and I really love it -- like someone said, I just wish the adults would "play nice" and just be adults. Well, I'll fill you in after I get back from the meeting. Thanx again for your support.

GLDCommish, welcome to the Forums. My old copy of the Insignia Guide (2003 revision) refers to the patch as "JLT", but it clearly states the JLT patch goes ON (not above) the right pocket; i.e., its a temporary patch. I know the online Insignia Guide is silent regarding placement of the NYLT patch, but if I had a newer edition of the hard copy, I think it would say on the left pocket. Re: placing other patches above the right pocket. The Insignia Guide mentions only one patch that goes there, the Jambo patch -- it does not mention any other patch. Nor does it prohibit patches from going there, but as someone else said in a different thread, the Insignia Guide does not state what cannot be done, it only says what CAN be done (after all, there are an infinite number of ways to wear patches and the uniform incorrectly). If BSA ever started down the road of "thou shalt nots" then the first time someone came up with something that wasn't specifically prohibited, they'd do it. Instead, the Insignia Guide takes the only rational approach, which is to the list the things you can do; i.e., how to wear the uniform correctly. By omitting something, I take that to mean you can't do it. So I conclude you aren't supposed to wear the NYLT patch (or any other patch) where the Jambo patch goes. And if the Insignia Guide (or other literature like the inspection sheet or leader guide) is silent respecting where to place any particular patch, I treat that patch as a temporary and wear it on the right pocket. By the way, there is no time limit on temporary patches -- after all, one can sew a "temporary" patch on the right pocket if you've mind to.

John, thanx for your comments. To respect the privacy of all the principals involved, I really can't give more details. But I'd still like to hear from anyone who might've gone through a similar episode. My main concern is the impact on the boys. I think the kids (other than perhaps the sons of the protagonists) are oblivious to the conflict. But if this drags on much longer, or if there are public confrontations (e.g., during a Pack Meeting), I fear anxiety among the Cubs (and the DLs who clearly ARE aware of the conflict). Thanx

I guess I'm a failure as a unit commissioner. One of my units is having a civil war between the CC and the CM (it also happens that they are next-door-neighbors -- yikes!). In any event, the COR has notified the DE that he wants a new CM for the Pack, otherwise they are considering dropping the charter. The CC has called an emergency committee meeting for this Sunday to discuss how to proceed -- but the current CM and his wife (who is an ACM) were not invited. I don't see any good outcomes resulting from this, but the Pack Committee will have to come up with a new CM, per the wishes of the CO. Has anyone ever gone through anything like this? Fred Goodwin, UC