evilleramsfan

One note... The whole point of mentioning TLT, was not that it was a requirement, but the fact that he attended it is a positive addition to his leadership experience, not that it met the requirement..... I hope my last post helped to explain the issue more fully. Due to time restraints over the last week, I just had time to post the question and unfortunately did not explain my dilemma adequately. I am fully aware of the requirements, but wanted some additional input. All of you have done so wonderfully, and I thank you. You, in essence, confirmed what my experience and training was telling me (even though I believe he did not truly earn the prior rank). In a nutshell, it comes down to what is done is done and we can only enforce what is current with the boy. BTW- I have had many discussions with others over the purpose of the Scoutmaster Conference and the BOR and in each case I do not see where we could have refused him. As many have stated here, he met the requirements for Troop Historian, he was active for the period of time, he met the merit badge requirements, he shows scout spirit and lives by the oath and law, and he had plenty of service hours. At this point, my hands are tied as are the BOR's (from what I have been told from many others who have been in scouting for a long time).

OK, more information and an update... The first thing you need to know is that I am the SM and what has been leading up to this has been coming for awhile. I have been SM for 4 years and ASM for 3 prior to that. I am an Eagle...having earned it one week before my 13th birthday. I know a little on the subject on early advancement. However, when I earned it, I had served as Scribe, Patrol Leader, SPL, and several other positions. In addition, I earned the rank not only from the current requirements at the time (late 1970's), but also from many years prior. I learned Morse code, had earned Lifesaving, etc. First of all, it is important to note that dad is an Eagle and has been pushing really hard. As soon as jr had been signed off on First Class, dad was asking for him to be assigned a leadership position. Forget the fact that the troop elections and positions were assigned 2 months prior. Dad has been an ASM since joining the troop last spring. The boy is a delight as far as that goes. I have no problem signing off on scout spirit and living by the oath and law. He is active and always has a smile on his face. He has problems with retaining what he has learned. At other times, however, I have been surprised at what he does know and usually enjoy our conferences together. One big problem has been that the troop grew quickly over the last 2 to 3 years. We went from a troop of 20-25 to a troop of 50+. We have a very active program and it has been a challenge to keep things well oiled and moving in the same direction as when we were smaller. A benefit of getting bigger is that it makes it easier to make sure patrol method is used. The negative is that some of the critical advancement quality control has gotten away from us. We are in the process of reigning in the quality control, but some cases such as this have slipped through as a result. We have created a policy in the last few months where, for example, we do not just "one and done" on signing off on a requirement. We require that the boy demonstrate that he knows how to do the skill and then comes back no less than two weeks later to show that he has retained that knowledge. If he can still demonstrate it, then we sign off for it in his book. For years, when a boy met the requirements at summer camp, we just transferred it to his book and signed off on it. At one time it worked because we had a chance to work more closely with the boys, but have found that recently the quality and retention to be lacking. We now require any skill requirement to have the 2 week lag time to show retention. This boy was one of the ones who got a bunch of items signed off because he went to two different summer camps. As a result, most of his First class was signed off and just needed time to happen. He did not earn First Class, but received it anyway. Ultimately, I am responsible. I feel I have taken actions to stop the hemorrhaging, but in some cases it is too late. Many of you were right in pointing out that what is done is done and I can only go by the Star requirements. He has met those. He was assigned Troop Historian and has done a good job, all things considered (although I do question if he really did the work....I did ask him point blank if he did the work and he said he did....I have to take his word, imo..). He did attend Troop Leadership Training and was active in it. I had a conference with him and felt I had no choice but to sign off on it. I will likely have some serious fallout over it. My Adv. Chair and one of my ASM's are livid over it. I may lose some active and valued adults as a result. In many ways, I am sick over the whole thing.... Thanks for your input everyone and at some point later, I'll share our advancement process that we developed to try to minimize these problems....

btw...he is First Class coming up for Star.

Thanks for the thoughts and ideas. I will fill you in later on how it goes. The big question is did he satisfy the leadership requirements adequately.

We have a boy in the troop who has cerebral palsy. He has been extremely active (probably moreso than most of the other boys in the troop). He has now been in the troop for 10 1/2 months and is already coming up for Star. The boy, when we discuss things with him, does remember what he has learned, but has difficulty in describing it. His parents are adamant that since he has attended almost everything and has held a minor leadership position (he also attended troop leadership training). I don't know how much of the work he did independently and how much was done with the push of the parents. The problem is that they are moving from the area next week. Within the last few days, he became eligible for Star via the timeline. There is a double-edged sword here.... If he did not have the disability, he might be better at explaining himself and make it easier to justify his advancement, but I really can't tell. If he couldn't explain himself, saying no wouldn't be as difficult either. I asked an ASM who has specialty in disabilities and she is really on the bubble with it. My gut says to make him wait....even though it will mean he has to find a new troop and put in time with them. I have had a hard time describing the dilemma, but would appreciate input. If we say no, his parents will likely be very angry and describe our decision as unfounded, biased, or based on ignorance, but I still don't think advancing him would be the right thing to do. We do meet with him within a few days and he will have a chance to prove himself.....but my gut says he won't convince us.

With all the mention on the Spotted Owl, I thought I'd throw in the following two videos. People do not realize the ecological damage that is being perpetuated by the wind farms. I've seen a few of them and my first impression was "That looks like hell...." I'd like to get your impressions.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fc5stM8Bj_0

For what it is worth, I don't think I have ever kissed my wife in front of the boys....I reserve that for when I am home. My wife doesn't come to our meeting place when we are ready to leave for an outing, nor do the other stay-behind spouses.

There is pollution and then there is CO2. It is fine to require scrubbers to eliminate the sulfates and nitrates from the smoke (leading contributors to acid rain), but this whole CO2 issue is a multi-billion dollar infusion into the coffers of universities, government offices, and environmentalists. This is the basis for the whole "Manmade Global Warming" scare. Let's not confuse the two.

Whoa...at this turnaround rate he will be running for the Republican nomination in 2012....

OK, I'm resurrecting the thread since I am now reading the book. BTW- he did interview Michael Dukakis in the process of writing the book.... The book is an interesting read..especially in consideration of the thread on the female ASM who was removed....

Nah....I think I'd take a lead pill before living under a Pelosi presidency....

But the point is that he was openly vocal about his homosexuality at the time of the article (because of his position in that organization and the subsequent article). The one thing I do not know the answer for is exactly how his removal was conducted. It may be the removal was done at the national level because the article was in a major regional newspaper. I am curious if the first action was by the CO and the BSA supported them. I know that Mr. Dale has said that once he was removed then he became more vocal about it. I could see the scenario play out that the CO removed him, he lashed out, the BSA backed the CO, Dale sued the BSA.... I don't know that this happened, but it would make sense....

Oh...I have just read the article about the VA mom and it appears to me that this decision was made by the CO. The BSA spokesperson for all practical purposes disavowed that the action was taken by the BSA. I believe them, especially considering the church that was the CO. There were some veiled references that the pastor had issues with her "preference".

Perhaps I am not explaining myself clearly. Yes, it is a morality decision, but homosexuality itself is not being put under the magnifying glass as to whether or not it is moral, but the discussion of sex, whether homosexual or heterosexual, that is deemed as immoral. Every case presented on the homosexuality argument was one where the individual was open and overt about their homosexuality. That was the straw that broke the camels back. In the Dale case, for example, had he stayed discreet about his homosexuality, it is very likely he would have remained an Assistant Scoutmaster. Instead, he became the president of an activist homosexuality group and expressed his sexual preference openly. To reframe the question, say that he became the president of a nudist group that was open and publicly told everyone what they did......I am fairly sure he would have been dismissed as a result of that becoming public. The one thing that needs to be passed on to all scouters that many may not have considered is this: How many out there post items on Facebook, Myspace, Youtube, or other public sites? Yes, you may be able call it "Freedom of Expression", but if it is deemed to be contradictory to the policies of the BSA, it could be used as grounds for dismissal from the organization.

I think everyone is missing the point here....(I do have to admit that I did not read the whole thread, but did peruse all of it and did not see this point). The issue is with OPEN homosexuality. I do not believe that a leader who is homosexual and is discreet about it has any problems. The point is that any discussion on sex in regard to BSA activities is strictly forbidden. If a scoutmaster began talking about affairs he had or had discussions along the line of "You won't believe what great sex I had last night", I can bet you that if the details got back to the district or council executive, the would not be in scouting very long. I don't know of any situation (aside from the parent's booklet in the front) where this type of situation is discussed or tolerated. Are there homosexual leaders currently in the BSA? I'm sure there are...just based on statistics. The difference here is between those who live a certain PRIVATE lifestyle and those who look to cause a disruption. How may scout leaders do any of you think has been to a strip club? I would imagine the answer is more than one. Now, if that leader considered that as a private matter and was discreet about it but was otherwise an excellent leader, should he be dismissed? Now, if that same person was open and non-apologetic about it to the point of being pushy, all while wearing the uniform, should he be dismissed? I would hope so.

There are multiple instruments that can define natural born based on conditions at the time of the drafting. The US Code is an example of this relative to territories. Btw, BS 87... I understand and respect your view, but I just don't agree with it. While I do think we have our faults as a people, I think our good points outweigh the bad. I can clearly remember the paper tiger reputation the country had in the late 70's and dont want to go back to those days.

That approach is naive and dangerous. To quote Uncle Ben from Spiderman (of all places) "With great power, comes great responsibility." Do we need to become the policeman of the world? No. However, with the expansion of our military, it has accomplished many good things. How many times have our military been able to help with humanitarian missions because of its size and capability? Just one example of this was the Tsunami in Thailand and surrounding countries in 2004. Since we had bases around the world we were able to deploy C-5's, C-17's, P-3's, and C-130's as soon as we were given permission from those governments. We sent Carrier Strike Group 9 (Abraham Lincoln & 4 support ships), Expeditionary Strike Group (Bonhomme Richard & 7 support ships), and the Mercy (hospital ship). This scenario has played out in various parts of the world at different times. I ask you: Can anyone else do this? No. Now, does this make others feel threatened? Yes, if they have a reason to feel that way. Does Great Britain, France, or Germany feel threatened by the size of our force? No, because they don't have a reason to. Does Iran? Yes, because they have a habit of causing problems for others and realize that we would be the ones who would most likely to try to stop them. One only needs to look at the US lack of involvement in WW2 to see what this type of foreign policy can yield. As to your analogy: Sometimes wasps will attack without provocation, so if you find a nest being built on your own home, the most prudent action is to eliminate the nest and create a condition where no new nest will be built.....

OK, I've had a chance to get over my aggravation over the whole Facebook thing. I've moved on and felt the need to chime in. I was at one of the first Tea Party events on the steps of the Arch. Every event that came to be known as the "Tea Party was as a result of Rick Santelli's rant on CNBC. Rick said what all of us were thinking: "My God....when is this reckless spending going to be curbed?" So, a local radio station was discussing this matter and the decision was made for people to just show up. Word spread and the major local news outlets barely covered it. Initially, the station that hosted it had hoped to get 100-200 people. Over 1000 showed up. It was peaceful, it was orderly, it was polite, and it was not racist (there were many from various ethnic backgrounds). The central theme was "we want our Constitution to be honored" and "stop wasteful spending". The event was something that anyone could attend and many times the "protesters" brought their kids along a well to teach them a lesson in civic responsibility. I have since attended 2 more events and they were conducted in the same manner. Now I realize there are various factions in the Tea Party and in most cases it is no longer that simple freedom of expression event, but from what I have read and heard about other events, they are still something that nobody should be afraid to take their kids to. One of my Eagle Scouts, after he turned 18, took a bus along with several friends to experience the Tea Party in Washington DC. He said it was one of the best experiences he had ever had. From all he told me, it appeared to be the same as the events I had attended earlier. Now, as to my opinions on the various candidates: You know who I am supporting. I like Paul as far as fiscal responsibility is concerned, but I consider his foreign policy approach as reckless. Romney leaves me cold (although my respect for him rose when I found out he was also an Eagle Scout). I feel he changes positions easily to meet the prevailing winds (i.e. manmade climate change). Bachmann: too stand-offish. I like someone that isn't afraid to go into a crowd and mix it up. Her campaign seems to be too choreographed. Palin: I don't like quitters and my respect for her went down when she walked away from Alaska. The rest of the field at this time is too weak for me to consider them... I do like Herman Cain and would love to see him in a cabinet position. This leaves me with Perry. Why? Besides being conservative (I don't care where his religion lies....), the biggest selling point for me is that he is an advocate for the 10th Amendment. Much of what we have in this country that divides us does so in geological areas. Rural areas tend to be more conservative and urban areas tend to be more liberal. That is fine. I can live and let live. That is where the 10th Amendment was supposed to come in. Social issues such as abortion, education, and many others should be left to the states to sort and legislate as they see fit. This would leave the role of the Federal government much smaller and less intrusive as a result. Are there some things that need to be handled at a Federal level? Sure. However, I feel it is best left to the states and local governments to handle as their constituents desire.

Hey, Beavah- The fact is that he is an Eagle Scout. I started the page to urge him to run his campaign by and stand by the values of scouting in this endeavor. It is an accomplishment of his that he should not hide or run away from. Should he use it as a shield? No. However, it has been clear that much of who he is today he attributes to his scouting experiences. The purpose here is to encourage him to run, but to hold himself to those ideals. I don't see this as crossing that political line with the BSA. Now, if the organization or a chartered group within that organization endorsed him, then that is another matter. In this case, there is no trademark infringement. Someone can just as easily set one up as "Eagle Scouts opposed to Rick Perry"....I don't care. But I do care that he represents us just as any other Eagle would....

I set up a Facebook group to urge Gov. Perry to run and more importantly to exhibit the values we, as Eagle Scout, hold dear. Feel free to join if you agree. If not, nobody is twisting your arm.... http://www.facebook.com/groups/174674639265903/

Very good point, Basementdweller...

BP...although 95% is high, it is possible to get a group over a given period of time that pushes the average. We are in that mode right now. There will be a slump later and i know which boys are more likely to not make it. However, success does foster success.

What we do: (We are just over 50 boys along with a Venturing crew) 1. Mix the patrols. Patrols have a mixture of ages from new scouts to Eagles. The older scouts who need leadership positions hold Venturing positions, act as Troop Guide for the patrol, or serve in other leadership capacities. It is the patrol's job to help the younger boys advance (which also helps the HS and Jr. High boys to brush up on their own skills). 2. Set up a venturing patrol/crew. Coordinate it with the troop so that crew meeting are on the same night as troop meetings, but offset timewise. Also, only schedule 2 crew meetings a month. This allows them to participate even on the days of troop meetings, but then they go for their separate meeting a bit later. (We have ours set up on 2nd and 4th Mondays, 45 minutes after the start of the troop meeting.) 3. High adventure is a must and the Venturing program will help foster it. We have found this helps retain the older boys. It also allows more leadership positions to open up for the boys who are middle school age.

OK...on to Eagle mills... Now, some will look strictly at the number of Eagles a troop turns out and if the number is more than normal, judge it as a mill. However, look at the quality of the scouts coming out. What did they do as a service project? What happens to their Eagle retention afterwards? Our troop used to be relatively small (about 12 active boys at any given point in time). We might have had an Eagle every other year and usually once the boy achieved it, they left soon thereafter. We built a solid program. I became Scoutmaster just over 3 years ago. The boys are involved on the planning of trips. They hold and actually have to perform in their leadership roles. I am a firm believer in immersing the new scouts in with the other boys. We make it a point to see there are at least two new boys in each patrol so they don't feel they are by themselves. It then becomes part of the Patrol Leader's and the patrol's job to bring the new boy up to speed and help him acclimate to the rest of the patrol. They also have a role in helping to teach the new scout his skills he needs to achieve ranks up to First Class. The teaching helps reinforce the skills they had already been signed off for. Scouts 14 and older are dual registered in Venturing if they choose. The Venturing scouts hold a position within each patrol as a member, but they are considered a mentor or Troop Guide for the patrol. They help the Patrol Leader learn the position, and help the others teach the newer scouts. Two meetings a month, they have a Venturing meeting that starts 45 minutes after the start of the Troop meeting to conduct Venturing business, assist one another in meeting their Eagle requirements, and assist each other as a sounding board for their Service Project planning. We have found that we have not only retained the vast majority of our older scouts, but they are more driven and help push one another to earn their Eagle. We have not only retained boys that are HS upperclassmen, but have drawn in boys who were wanting to finish their Eagle but no longer were excited or drawn to their original troop. Our Venturing crew now has 6 Eagle scouts in it that are HS graduates and 3 of those have a dual registration now as an Assistant Scoutmaster (despite being enrolled full time in local colleges). The crew also has 3 Eagles who are not yet 18 and have a dual registration with the troop. From the outside, I have heard some comments about us having and Eagle mill. I would, however, stack any of our boys up with any other Eagle out there..... (I will mention that we now have 12 Assistant Scoutmasters...5 of them plus myself being Eagles.... plus a full committee and our troop/crew registration exceeds 50....) Like I said, to respond to the OP's question.... (note: numbers here do not correspond to OP's numbers....) 1. Make sure you know the difference between an Eagle mill and a solid advancement program. 2. For a solid advancement program, it is anchored in the boys not only competing, but helping each other along the way. 3. An Eagle mill is almost entirely driven by parents. We have a few of those parents in our troop and we actually are working on slowing those boys down. They clearly do not learn the material and until they are able to teach it, they will have a hard time advancing through upper ranks. 4. Eagle mills will push hard on the merit badge universities. Go for a weekend and earn 4 or 5 merit badges.... I don't like them. What does the boy really learn? 5. Before making a judgement, look at the Service Projects that are turned out. Are they good projects? That will give you a clue. ....just my thoughts...

I agree with much of what Horizon has posted here. I am also one of those young Eagles that had apparently not received earned it in the eyes of some of those here (not that I really care....I'd put my scouting pedigree up against theirs any day...). Now, I was young when I joined and I worked very hard. My father started out as my scoutmaster, but when he realized how fast I was advancing, he resigned the position so as to not put me in the position of having to defend from charges of the rank being given to me. My Eagle was passed at national a week before my 13th birthday. At that point, I had attended 3 week-long summer camps (one as a 2nd year Webelo but through a special program that treated it as a regular Boy Scout camp). I had earned a 50 miler award for canoe and another for backpacking. I had served as scribe, patrol leader, and SPL. I was a Brotherhood member of OA and was serving on the ceremonies committee. As I was approaching Life, I had coasted on Firemanship merit badge and my father quickly figured it out. He quizzed me on it and told me he would not allow the Scoutmaster to award me the badge. I had to go to the counselor immediately and apologize for wasting his time and set up another appointment to earn it. The second time, I knew all the material. There were several members of the committee who did not believe I knew the material and was drilled for an hour during my BOR of everything that was required for rank. When I proved that I knew and remembered everything, they still objected because I was too young. Fortunately, the district executive sat in on my review and told them they had no justifiable reason to hold me back. Even in the grilling, I had shown the maturity to stay calm and collected. BTW, when I was approaching Life, my father made sure I was well versed in the BSA history and traditions. He told me about the changes in the requirements that had occurred and that it was up to me to figure out what road I wanted to take if I wanted to earn Eagle.....the old requirements or the new ones. I made sure that I had earned it by the old requirements.....(swimming and lifesaving were mandatory and I learned morse code as well). Nobody who had earned it with the older requirements could hold that over my head. The road to my Eagle was just the beginning. I earned a silver and a second bronze palm. The year following me receiving my Eagle, I was slated to attend the World Jamboree....the one that was cancelled....in 1979...in Iran. I was sought out to be a camp commissioner for a neighboring council at their summer camp by the time I was 14, but turned it down for the opportunity to work at my home council's camp as an aquatics aide for half the money. The age of the Eagle has nothing to do with it....it is the maturity and responsibility level of the boy. I'll follow up later about "Eagle Mills". There is a marked difference between a mill and a troop that has a successful program....