eolesen

Great comments... We pack a Katadyn dual action, and an iodine kit. Haven't had to break out the iodine lately, but at least I know is there...

"I haven't made a decision on how to handle the cell phone thing in the future. But I still might tell him to pack it deep in his bag and off just in case."

Sorry if you think I'm picking on you in particular, but this last sentence is a huge part of the underlying issue being discussed.

A Scout is obedient.

When the leaders (be they the SPL or the SM/ASM) publish a list of equipment for an outing, it's usually based on experience. I've been running outings for 10 years, and camping for over 30. The professionals who put together the packing lists for summer camp do so after seeing thousands of boys go thru their facilities.

Feel free to question why a particular piece of equipment is required or isn't allowed *before* your son leaves for the outing, but ignoring the instructions does nothing to help the situation at all.

If anything, telling him to "pack it deep" just undercuts the leaders' authority.

It's also a slippery slope --- if they get away with ignore the packing list this time, where is that going to lead? Bringing the illegal cell phone is a gateway action to things like forgetting about the buddy system, the need for blood circles, adhering to burn bans, etc... After all, isn't it a bit unpatriotic to tell Scouts they can't blow off a few firecrackers on the Fourth of July?...

Again, sorry if this appears to be a bit of a rant, but it's from experience.

I've seen tents destroyed by skunks and raccoons because a parent didn't believe that the patrol's menu or dining hall was going to provide enough food for their Scout, and the Scout was too afraid to put their stuff in the critter box, lest it be confiscated.

As I mentioned earlier, over $400 in electronics were destroyed by my own son within 12 months, because he saw fit to ignore the rules on no electronics on campouts. Another boy had his iPhone stolen out of his daypack (which was a $600 replacement according to his parents).

This summer, I watched a spring loaded knife get confiscated by camp staff because the kid's parents didn't read the rules, and apparently didn't think it was a safety hazard.

All of those situations were due to parents and/or the Scout deciding that the rules didn't apply to them because they knew better or didn't think it would be a problem.

Rant off...

As for the illness, I agree with what Shilue wrote above.

What good would have been accomplished by getting a call that others were sick but your son was OK? Would you have spent the next three or four days worrying that he'd be the next one to wind up with the Hershey Squirts? I know several of my parents would have been driving the 270 miles to camp just to check up on their son.

As I said to the parents when we left the parking lot, no news is good news.(This message has been edited by eolesen)

Agree with the above. Two summers ago, our troop had two crews of 6Y+2A plus a guide. We took opposite directions on the Bear Loop, and met up halfway for about 30 minutes.

Keeping crews intact meant that by the end of the second day, we had our portaging down to a science. Everyone knew what gear they had to take, and how to best get everything organized at the other end. We also figured out which boys couldn't manage the food pack or the canoes, who worked best in the front vs. back, etc...

Good thing, as we did ~12 portages if I recall on the third day.

If we'd have been mixing and matching, we could have wound up having to double portage a few times.

Hmmm.... the last thing I wanted as a leader at Camp was Moms texting my first year Scouts to make sure they're OK.

Perhaps an old Scouter tale, but it's been said that if you let a homesick Scout call home, they're usually on their way home within 24 hours....

Boys need time away from their parents. That includes no "comfort texting" for mom's benefit.

My oldest son trashed two cell phones and an iPod by bringing them to camp. That's a lot of money flushed down the toilet.

There's nowhere to charge phones at most camps. They get lost, stolen, broken. Why deal with that distraction at the one week you're supposed to be getting the kid away from civilization?....

Next year, I think it is time to ban first year parents from attending with their kids... (This message has been edited by Eolesen)

Congrats, David.

I know you probably want 'em as soon as possible, but think about the people who helped you on the way and might want to be there. That will help you figure out when and where.

I waited a few weeks for mine so that my guide could be there, and we did it at the start of a round table. Several colleagues of mine wanted it done at their Troop COH. Another person I know was given a surprise beading during a roundtable (apparently, she'd procrastinated lomg enough on telling her guide when and where).

The Regatta would be fun. Haven't ever seen a Buffalo swim, but there's a first time for everything...

And no, you're not done. You're just beginning.

(This message has been edited by Eolesen)

Plywood is definitely heavier. A 1/2" footlocker size box weighs around 32lbs empty.....

Stainless looks great until it takes a spill and has a few dents & gouges in it.

Save the back and budget -- get some plastic footlockers or Actionpackers that can be cleaned out with a power-washer once a year....

If all the signatures were present, and the project was executed, it's time to let the unit implode on its own, and start escalating this for the district and council advancement folks to evaluate.

Yes, it forces progression. And because they dont have to worry about re-election, it also lets them take some risks that they wouldnt if they had to stay popular.

Nobody's ever asked to change the way it is, frankly. The ASPL's I've spoken with like the safety net, and I've yet to hear someone really ask to stick around. By that time, they're usually ready for a troop guide or instructor role which has higher stature and less pressure.

Being boy led, they're free to chage things up when there's a will or a need.(This message has been edited by Eolesen)

Two camps has been the norm for as long as I can recall with our current troop.

First is the "local option" which is typically our council camp, and it is marketed/targeted for the under 14 crowd. That's expanded a bit as our council camp closed for fire/drought the past two summers, but the intent remains the same -- resident camp, close to home, where the aim is camping, merit badges and "low adventure".

Second is the high adventure option, and is not limited to just the four national HA bases. It's marketed to the 14 and overs due to the age restrictions which show up on HA, but we've had younger scouts go when there's a base camp option to work on merit badges and/or age appropriate activities.

Some boys attend both, some leaders attend both. We've never seen one poach from the other. I don't recall ever having to cancel one or the other for low attendance.

Other troops of similar size in our area do the same thing. We have around 50 registered boys, and almost as many leaders.

My experience as a leader is that it's a good option if you have the ability to make it happen. Boys are busy, and offering just a single resident camp option doesn't always mix with sports, family vacations, and the like. We have one boy base camping and working on MB's at the HA outing because he couldn't attend the low adventure camp. It's a far better option than trying to send him as a provisional.

It's also good from a leadership development perspective -- when there's a low crossover between the two, that means twice as many boys have the opportunity to be patrol leaders, etc.

Likewise for your adults. We have twice as much experience to pull from when getting organized for camp as we would otherwise.

"If some clown tried to do an FOS presentation at my ECOH, I wouldn't be Eagle Scout after physically kicking the idiot to the curb. "

Sure you would. You have already passed your board of review by the time your COH is held.

Rank once given is never revoked, right?...

A good SPL has experience.

In our troop, boys elect the ASPL, and after six months of being the understudy, they move up to SPL. Being a 12 month commitment, they experience the whole program year, and with luck, they have had ample time to grow into the job by the time they're the SPL..

Training? That's what the SPL does with his ASPL. They've been in their shoes, and training your replacement is a good learning experience on both sides.

So far, it works, and I've watched it for six years now...(This message has been edited by Eolesen)

.... And this is how we've wound up with little red wagons being deemed as unsafe....

SP, there are appropriate measures already suggested which deal with the real issue. I see little good being accomplished by labeling youth as sexual offenders for the rest of their lives when the intent isn't nefarious. The biggest issues facing Scouting are what can happen when adults over-react to a given situation.

Am I taking a calculated risk? Yep. Everytime I put on the shoulder loops, I'm taking a risk, whether it is due to a Scout bringing porn, someone being injured from falling off a cliff, or having a Scout react badly to a corner being taken from a Totin' Chit.

The alternative is to bubble-wrap the Scouts and never leave the safety of home. So I'll face the risks, thank you.

I can only hope I'm lucid enough to take the stand in 30 years to recount what happened on a Scout camp out....(This message has been edited by Eolesen)

Sheesh. We're volunteers. This isn't the Jerry Sandusky trial. There's a point of reason to be held to, and a Scout showing off his porn, while distasteful, doesn't quite fall under distribution to minors unless he's selling it or otherwise giving out copies.

Next thing you know, we will be liable for Scouts learning curse words and dirty jokes told after lights out...

(This message has been edited by Eolesen)

Beav, I think we've had this discussion a couple times... I'm in agreement with you that neither activity counts as hazing in the purely legalistic standpoint.

Unfortunately, the DE's and SE's I've spoken with *do* consider it as such, probably right up there in seriousness with the danger involved with Cubs pulling little red four wheeled wagons. They're the professionals, and they want to call it hazing, I'm done wasting my energy arguing with them about it.(This message has been edited by eolesen)

Pushups for behavior modification is a form of hazing... It's right next to having Scouts singing "I'm a little teapot" for leaving personal gear behind at a camp out. Don't agree with the former, wish the latter was still an option, but the rules are what they are...

Depends on what type of unit... if it is an LDS unit, they'll simply appoint someone. In some wards, it falls to a retiree who is seen as having the time. In others, you wind up with someone who was a Scout as a kid, has a kid in the program, and simply was next in line for a calling. Give them the patch, send them to a couple classes, and they're ready to go, right?...

Personally, I see the "lifetime appointment" system for SM being quite dangerous... it's good to have the experience, but you wind up with a lot of complacency on all sides.

Our troop has an unwritten rule for term limits as SM --- three years, and then they turn it over to someone else. In just over six years, I'm now on my fourth SM within the same troop. Some check-out, some move on to district/council roles, and some still stay active.

So... back to the question... in our unit, the SM and CC get backfilled by someone who has been around for a couple years and have the time & commitment to serving in the position. They in turn get backfilled by new parents with the desire to do more. For the 10 years I've been involved with Scouting, that system seems to work pretty well.(This message has been edited by eolesen)

A couple of straight pins thru the patch into the shirt has worked for 100 years. Pin it, sew it, wear it.

Stuff like patch magic/badge magic is good if you never plan to remove the patch, but it's horrible to deal with if you ever need to move the patch to a new shirt or replace it with something else.

Velcro is nice, but I've already seen boys lose patches because someone thought matching the military was a good idea.(This message has been edited by eolesen)

We were at the south campsites, and they'd already been divided into A, B, C for our session.

The decision on Lawton closing came out on June 6th, so there really wasn't a lot of advance notice to give the staff with camp starting June 10th.

Price-wise, we paid the out of council rate. Lawton runs $220 for early-bird registration (payment by early May), and $265 for late registrations; GCC's rates are $265 for out of council troops, so we had to tell all the boys who thought they'd paid in full that it was now going to be an extra ~$75 or so between the higher rates and higher transportation cost.

The lesson to be learned by all this... always be ready to implement Plan B, since you may only have a few days to figure things out. Last year, it caught us off guard, and this year, we made sure that everyone knew the risks. It also helped that we were familiar with the backup camp.

What frosts my glass a bit is that this year, the Council made the decision to close the camp based on the shortage of water on the mountain, not due to the NFS closing it for fire risk. The forest is open. The camp is open for unit use. They just didn't want to deal with the issues of running the dining hall and keeping boys hydrated when the natural water supplies were close to depleted.

Being closed two summers in a row has cost Catalina around $200K-$250K in lost revenue for the two summers, and some units I spoke to won't even bother registering for Lawton next year... They'll just book Geronimo or Raymond.

So, Catalina's days are numbered. Unlike a lot of other councils, they don't have assets or land they can sell to stay afloat.

To add to the issues, both of Catalina's camps are leased (Lawton from NFS, Double-V from BLM), what can be done with and on the property is highly restricted. We can't add buildings to Lawton, and replacement structures have to occupy the same footprint as the structure being replaced. With 110F temps in July, Double-V just isn't suitable for summer use.

As far as I know, R-C, Heard, Geronimo and Raymond are owned by GCC, so they have a lot more ability to make improvements and can stay open even if the NFS decides to close the adjoining forests. Being at altitude, they also offer year-round use (therefore more revenue generating potential).

Lots of the units in GCC I spoke with had heard the rumors already. By this time next year, I think we're going to hear something a lot more formal than just what's being discussed around the campfires.(This message has been edited by eolesen)

The baby at the headquarters wasn't a problem -- mom was working the office, and it wasn't stopping her from doing her thing. They were staying in the health lodge, and we did get an evil eye when coming in to do one of our Scouts' meds during the baby's nap time...

I'm still looking at my feedback form, and will add some of this. I know that at least one of the commissioners had his wife and two daughters, and they took up the last two spots in the line for one of the evening open shoots, denying a couple of paying Scouts the opportunity to shoot. It's probably a bit petty, but like you say, it's a slippery slope, especially when you consider that the commissioner is supposed to be setting the example moreso than the staff...

I've seen troops go to camp on a Greyhound before... We took 35 boys and 8 adults to an out of state camp years ago that was 14 hours driving away, and would have required an overnight stop due to the tour permit rules on how many hours of driving we could do in a day. Got a quote from the local bus company, found it was cheaper than renting 14 passenger vans, so we did it. All our personal gear fit in the underfloor bays with a little room to spare.

But back to the topic, which has been flogged to death... For summer camp and maybe Camporee, having a single 6x10 open trailer works just fine for us. The open trailer means it doesn't become a clutter-collector like the enclosed ones do, and it also doesn't present a high profile therefore causing a gas mileage hit.

There are several troop families who have these for their quads, so we don't own one as a unit. Even if we did, our state offers permanent utility trailer registration, so there'd be little to no recurring cost except for tire replacement every three or four years due to sun rot...

Wow... simply amazingly bad judgement call on all parties except for those who said no.

I'm shocked the CD allowed it. If they drove up separately, it's not like the adults involved were required to drive the troop or enforce 2DL.

I'll be happy to take some of the heat and drop a note to the Council involved... The leaders' guide I got isn't specific on the issue, but certainly can be for next year.(This message has been edited by eolesen)

If I heard my commissioner correctly, there were a few no-show units at Raymond, so it could have been worse....

Since it looks like GCC and CC are merging, my guess is that Council felt a little more obligation to the Catalina Refugees. To their credit, Las Vegas Council and Del Webb in UT also made space available. Raymond didn't have to take anyone they didn't have room for --- Geronimo only had a few slots available and our week was already closed out when the camp closure came out.

We were there for Week 3. Nobody sick in our campsite, fortunately, but we were filling a lot of water bottles at our site, and not at the public areas.

Dining hall was full, but I saw empty seats in every meal, and nobody went hungry. Sodexo did a great job in planning (aside from running out of Fruit Loops, which isn't a tragedy) under the circumstances.

Only place I saw truly overtaxed for merit badges was handicrafts, and if Raymond took a slightly more organized approach to MB's they'd have been fine. Morning sessions were overloaded, afternoons were empty.

Bottom line is the boys had a great time. 83 merit badges completed between 18 boys, and 5 of them spent most their time in Trail to FC...(This message has been edited by Eolesen)

I'm a rebel. After 10 years, I have but one ODL and one Centennial shirt, and a pair of switchbacks for each.

No knots. But I do have about eight or nine neckers and some assorted neckerbling to go with them....

I felt your pain --- we were shut out of Lawton two years running, and wound up at Raymond. Council did a yeoman's job of lining up alternatives so all we had to do is pick from the list.

Where did you wind up?

Depends on climate... In TX & IL, I stuck with pants. In AZ, shorts.

On treks, depends on climate. Bugs and brush? Pants. Trail without bugs and brush? Shorts.

At summer camp? Shorts.