eolesen

Personally, the full BSA uniform looks good, but is over complicated compared to Scouting elsewhere.

In many countries, the uniform is a necker and t-shirt. If a pack or a troop decides that is the uniform, so be it.

Sheesh... You came here seeking counsel. It's been given. Some of us here have seen this happen before. You've got decades of Scouting experiences behind some of the opinions voiced here.

And yet, you are dismissing it and continuing on a path that is destructive, not constructive.....

You've sent anonymous emails (which can't be proven) to undermine the original leader, phone calls or emails galore to the council, and now meetings being set up thru your mom's connections to the board, with the intent of demanding justice and firing volunteers......

Where is any of this really about your daughter?... Has HER program suffered because of the action taken?

Your daughter wasn't kicked out of the program. Try to remember that.

It is quite likely that if you keep going, she's going to pay the price for your need to "seek justice"...

She'll either have to go with you to the unit that it looks more and more like your ego needs to start, or she'll be looked at differently by the current leadership.

You don't see the growing hole you're digging for the three of you. Some of us do.

Again, you came here seeking counsel. It may not be the advise you wanted to hear, but it appears you are only making a bad situation worse.

Saw the comment about Perkins... Yes, it is small, but "staying in council" issues aside for a second, if you're looking for the large camp experience, you've got Sid Richardson about an hour away from you... Thousands of acres, or so it seems. Plop camping not required -- some troops even do their Philmont training up there.

Love the large bunkhouses... Look up elk hunting tents and you'll see the same designs minus the bunks. Tent fabric is shipped along with the hardware minus poles. Instructions include specs on how to have metal conduit cut to length to fit the brackets. Cuts the shipping considerably...

I have no problem with adult patrol patches. I'd much rather see those than a fruit salad of knots on the adults.

In my first troop, the adults were the Buffalo patrol on campouts. It was either due to the profile of many of the adults, or perhaps a Wood Badge thing. Either way, we camped separate, cooked separate, and essentially functioned as a model patrol.

For fun, the SM had some patches done in pink for some of the female ASM and committee members who were more hard-core outing leaders. They loved it, and we got more than a few requests from other troops to buy/trade those pink buffalo, so they were either collectors or must have done likewise...

Yeah, this is just a step away from the boy being labeled as a sex offender, and that goes public and will follow him forever, even as a minor it's public info.

This isn't protecting the boys -- it's making sure that all the bases are covered for the Council and for the adults.

To be blunt, if the anonymous emails is what got your wife kicked out, the sacrifice you should be making is to butt out entirely. Fall on your sword. Get out of the way.

Putting your need to make things right ahead of your wife and daughter is just digging a deeper hole that they ultimately will be stuck in.

I'm not a fan of troop tents at all, and understand that when the boys raised the funds, it's hard to say no...

If you have the Eurekas, A Scout is Thrifty.

We let the boys bring their apartment sized family tents for car camping, but I'd seriously rethink buying a second set of tents for the troop. Is there other gear that is in need of replacement or procuring?

Maybe you should let them try using a family tent before spending money on an experiment or a whim. If it works well, commit the funds.

I know too many people who bought boats, jetskis, four wheelers, motor homes or campers thinking they'd really enjoy the great outdoors, just to have them serving as lawn ornaments 50 weeks out of the year...

It's an extreme example, but we've got a few pieces of well intended troop purchases which never leave the QM shed....

Again, A Scout is Thrifty. It's the most overlooked point of the Law at times. Remind the boys what it means, and ask them to get back to you.(This message has been edited by Eolesen)

Welcome to the biggest problem with " new boy patrols" and why we don't use them....

The only way I've seen a NBP really work is to have an experienced Scout (Star or Life) be their PL or to have a TG assigned to oversee the inexperienced PL.

The flipside of this is that they while might have a lousy time, they will probably think twice for the next campout, provided half of them don't quit over a bad experience...

Planning form is a good idea. There are dozens available on the web -- just google "campout planning form"

http://www.usscouts.org/netresources/forms/gencampoutprep.pdf(This message has been edited by Eolesen)

A Scout is Loyal, Helpful, Friendly, and Kind.

I ask the offender exactly bullying fits into those four point of the Law, and that usually is the end of it.

I've been an ASM for most of my unit Scouting career, but there was a very short time when we returned to our old troop that I wasn't officially registered as an ASM, and a shrewd committee member roped me into sitting in on a couple BORs.

A Scout is Helpful, so I obliged...

Halfway thru, I started asking a few questions that weren't on the notecards the coordinator had passed out with the prepared questions. Her canned questions focused on how the Scout had done things, what they found fun, what they'd like to do...

Halfway into the session, I asked a few questions not on the sheet... I started asking stuff like how effective their PL had been, and if the calendar had helped or hurt their ability to finish their rank requirements.

That caught one of the other participants a bit off guard. We discussed it afterward, and they'd never considered that the reason the committee conducted the BOR was so that they could evaluate how well the SM and ASM were doing *their* jobs.

Shocking to some, but boys at the TF, SC, and FC level can tell when a program is lacking. All you have to do is ask the right questions...

"I know of a wonderful young man who was denied Eagle by his SM due to SM's view of the Scout not being active enough. This Scout had completed ALL requirements for Eagle, but because he was away from the troop (working at SCOUT Summer Camp!) the SM would not sign off on the requirement for being an active member of the troop! He tried to switch troops, but there was not enough time for him to be active in the new troop for the 6 month requirement. I wish this young man had pushed the issue, because he IS and Always will be, an Eagle Scout in everyone's eyes except that one SM. "

Maybe I'm missing something, but if he met all the requirements prior to turning 18, he should still be able to submit his application. There's an exception process that can be initiated thru the Eagle Scout Service at the national office if it's more than three months past his 18th birthday...

Hard as it may be, it's probably time to let sleeping dogs lie, and put the girls needs ahead of the adults' egos.

start up a new troop if the council is open to the idea. Takeovers/coups don't end well for anyone, and may cause even more damage to the program.

If others want to support you and follow you to the new troop, welcome them with open arms.

If not, part ways as friends.

Scouting is a great experience when adult personalities don't get in the way...

Moose, since the GS Council owns the charter (there is no CO), I've seen where they are a lot more hands-on in stuff like this than what we see with BSA. I also found it odd that a man is running the unit. I was under the impression that men couldn't be leaders... maybe that's a recent change since we last looked into starting a troop?...(This message has been edited by eolesen)(This message has been edited by eolesen)

Moving the troop over to the new CO is certainly something that you might want to consider proposing. If nothing else, it provides some continuity for the boys who've aged out of the unit, and also some instant tradition.

When I was a unit commissioner, I had a troop that sounds much like the one you're leaving. Small, no real source of new boys, and not a lot of motivation to stay chartered. They wound up changing meeting places, moving ten miles away from their "traditional" place. Some of the boys made the move, some didn't. They also found new boys in the new neighborhood. So it can be done.

I do hope that the message about wearing too many hats has sunk in. It's not meant to question your abilities. We've been there. And some of us will be there more than once.

Hate to be sexist, but I have to... mostly tongue in cheek.

The message home from camp was obviously written by a dad and for other dads.

My son can tell me three or four words about how his day is, and I'm OK with that. I'll repeat them verbatim to my wife, and she'll ask ten questions about what those four words were really supposed to mean...

In case you didn't know this, Dads are very literal, and don't add unnecessary details. We don't always see a reason to ask for more details than are required. They read that cryptic message, and see no reason to read anything more into it.

When someone says "don't get me anything for Christmas/Festivus/my birthday", that's exactly what we are programmed to do...

Moms don't deal well with cryptic. They want details. Full details. They want details between the details. Even when they don't exist, they expect details.

My shopping list will be three or four words. My wife will write a two page list with descriptions.

Maybe next year I'll let one of the mom ASM's write the note home...

The parable about hiding your light under a bushel comes to mind... If he provided the addresses, I'd do it.

Intended as such or not, I see his wanting to send the announcement out to extremists as a form of witness.

It's a tactful way of saying that yes, there are still people who demonstrate what it means to be physically strong, morally straight, and mentally awake, especially if the recipient chooses to live a lifestyle which goes against that which we say we believe in.(This message has been edited by eolesen)

Oh, you're only getting started with the phone calls and talking and talking and talking....

Congrats.

Not trying to cheerlead for TM, but if price is the main consideration, TroopTrack ($99/year) is higher than Packmaster or Troopmaster ($70/three years) or even ScoutManage ($50/year). Adding online access to Troopmaster is $60/year, which still comes out to be a little cheaper than TroopTrack.

Personally, I like the fact we aren't dependent on an internet connection, which we haven't had available at the meeting places for any of the troops I've been registered with. The portability also allowed us to bring the advancement laptop with to events like merit badge college or summer camp. But a troop is different from a pack, in that only one person is keeping the records, and some packs are allowing parents to log advancement online vs. in their Cub's book for a den leader to do.

Yes, we tried that. With all the dust being kicked up by the wind and stampeding Scouts, the bar of soap was constantly getting caked in dirt...

You get what you pay for. I'm on my third troop using TroopMaster, and while it is only as good as the person updating it, we've had great support over the years when its been needed. Haven't used PackMaster, but I suspect the support is coming from the same folks.

Having a flu bug or other outbreak is definitely something that can happen whenever you get 300-700 people in the same place for a week, and yes, the poor hand-washing habits of one or two can easily bring down many others. It also doesn't take much for a not-yet-recovered Scout to bring along an airborne bug from home, and have it spread like wildfire within a tent, a lodge, etc. where they're in close quarters with other boys.

We were at Raymond (near Flagstaff) and there was definitely something going around. Many staffers had a hacking dry cough from the dust clouds; some campsites were hit with either Montezuma's Revenge, and some others weren't affected at all. Not a single one of our Scouts or leaders reported being sick.

To their credit, the dining hall had hand sanitizer stations available on the way in (good), and the kybos at the sites had liquid soap dispensers (good). The serving line was cafeteria style, and didn't allow non-serving Scouts to come in contact with someone else's food.

Unfortunately, the dining hall sanitizer stations ran empty on Day 2, and didn't get refilled immediately. That knocked out one good line of defense.

We started out with a mostly full soap dispenser at our kybo, but by Day 4, it was empty, and the QM's shed only had a 5 gal jug 'o soap for refilling (our enterprising QMs used two styrofoam coffee cups instead of lugging the jug a half mile there and back). So there was a limited timeframe where there was no soap at our kybo. I suspect that there were other kybos that had no soap the entire week, and nobody paid attention to it. Another line of defense, gone.

There was also nothing for hand sanitizing whatsoever at the porta-blue's staged around the camp to supplement the permanent kybos. Some of our Scouts carry it in their day pack, but many do not.

The new trading post at Raymond left the doors open whenever it was open for business, so at least that was one opportunity lost for spreading nasties...

Simple for some troops... They don't buy troop tents (too late for y'all). Scouts usually take better care of their own equipment. If it molds, they're on the hook to clean up the mess, not some poor QM.

Part of your problem might be the "bring it back at the next meeting" requirement. It might take a day or two longer, but emphasize "bring it back when dry" instead...

Another option if you have a shed or a basement at the church or hut to borrow... Drying hooks in the rafters, and line to hang them from. This is how Northern Tier deals with all returned tents and packs, and it seems to work. I've got them strung in my garage. Tents last longer when they can breath.

If you have to clean mildew, try the REI instructions... Some people simply machine wash tents in a large mesh or lingerie bag on the delicate cycle. I've never had to deal with it on my gear, so take both suggestions with a grain of salt...(This message has been edited by Eolesen)(This message has been edited by Eolesen)

How you plan your water depends on where you are camping... Here in the desert, water can't be taken for granted even when we're on a Scout reservation....

If we know there's a reliable potable source when base/car camping, the blue water cubes from Walmart go a long way. I have a 6 gallon Jerry can we use to run water from the spigot to the cubes if we are within walking distance. If not, we load up on the way in, and top off as needed. Because water is heavy, we don't carry it in the cubes all the way from home unless it is within a 30 minute drive of the church.

This actually saved us at summer camp -- we loaded up on water on arrival, well before the camp flu started making the rounds, and the boys were topping their water bottles from our supply as opposed to the faucets in the program areas (which were likely spreading the bug).

Backpacking, 2L per person per day, and assume there's nothing on the trail at all. That usually limits us to one or two overnights in the backcountry. I use smaller containers vs. one or two large bottles, just in case one breaks.

The idea of staging water along the trail isn't a bad one, if you're in an area where a cache is accessible by road. But that's not always practical in the backcountry.

Always have purification options with you. You never know when the potable water won't be available.

BB, me thinks you're heading for either a case of burnout, a divorce, or both...

Your loyalty should be to your family and boys. Period.

Pick one registered leadership position plus OA.

Enthusiasm is one thing, but life interrupts regardless of your best intentions, and having you wear multiple hats does a disservice to you, your boys, and the troop.

At best, you'll be losing out on your time with your sons. You essentially stop being a parent when you're trying to run everything.....

At worst, the unit is going to fold because you've let yourself become a single point of failure...(This message has been edited by Eolesen)

Nothing beats a good shakedown and packing the vehicles the day before you leve...

It won't stop the kid from bringing a phone in their daypack, but it does cut down on the illicit case of soda...

It's also good for the parents to see what the other kids *aren't* bringing, and some ideas on what type of gear the older kids have collected.

With first years, we did a preliminary on Thursday where the bags were checked out by more senior Scouts. That gave the boy/parent time to get the missing items before the real shakeout and packing.(This message has been edited by Eolesen)

At camp, one of my boys comes up to me and motions at the campsite across the road....

Three boys, standing perhaps 2' away from each other, the middle kid swinging a hatchet wildly over his head on a live limb of a pine tree...

I walked over, asked them what they were doing, and after they answered, told them what I thought of it, and that all three would have had their TC torn in half if they were in my troop (why bother with corners?...).

Their adult leader was standing 20' away during the whle lead-up, and never said anything until I walked away...

As with the trash-line above, it's the adults not leading by example...

(This message has been edited by Eolesen)