Eagle732

Why do you want these particular patches?

Im at the station working today and it just so happens that we had 4 hours of EMT refresher. After the class I asked the instructor to review the Wilderness First Aid book and asked if our EMT certification meets the WFA standard. The opinion was that EMT far exceeds the WFA material cover in the WFA Basic book which is the minimum standard required by Philmont. Also I posed this hypothetical situation to the instructor; Im with a crew in Philmont (or anywhere else) along with a certified WFA individual and there is an accident with serious injuries. Who is legally responsible for the patient? Answer: the highest trained medical person, in this case the EMT.

Calico: www.philmontscoutranch.org has the new standards for 2008 which states Philmont requires that a least one person, preferably two, (either an advisor or a youth participant) in each crew

be currently certified in American Red Cross Wilderness First Aid or the equivalent* and CPR from the

American Heart Association, the American Red Cross or the equivalent. They then list several sources for the course other than Red Cross. Course prices that I have seen are $60 to $140.

GernBlansten: Honey bear enemas are not covered in either the WFA material or my EMT protocols.

So I see that high adventure camps are now requiring at least one crew member to have Wilderness First Aid certification. A friend with no previous first aid training took the16 hour long, $90 course and is now good to go to Philmont this summer. Now Im all for training, in fact Im on our districts training team, and I believe that you can never have enough training to prepare for an emergency. Ive been a firefighter/EMT for over 30 years, the last 25 with a major metropolitan fire department. So what Im wondering is why doesnt BSA accept EMT as sufficient training in place of Wilderness First Aid? Maryland EMT (my cert.) is currently up to 130 hours of initial training. Now the obvious answer is that EMT certification is not the same as WFA certification but I just read the Red Cross Wilderness First Aid Basics manual my friend used and I dont see anything in there that isnt covered under my EMT protocols, in fact it is very basic. I went to a Red Cross chapter website and looked at what one needs to have to be a WFA instructor. It seems that you just need to be a Red Cross Advanced First Aid Instructor, request a copy of the WFA material and verify that you have reviewed it on the form provided. No special instructors class needed. Considering that we Scouters are spending a substantial amount of time and money so that our Scouts can attend a High Adventure camp you would think that BSA would be a little more flexible.

We should try to provide as safe an environment as possible for our Scouts. If this means asking the rest of the troop to go without peanut butter, posting ingredients, and knowing what to do in case of an allergic reaction than so be it. The scout and his parents also have the responsibility to check foods and make everyone aware of his condition. For the past 3 years I have been the Safety Director for our districts Cub Scout Day Camp which hosts over 500 scouts. I have reviewed medical forms from these scouts and you would be amazed at the number with severe allergies and other serious conditions.

I asked my 11 y.o. son what bullying means to him. He says Bullies are kids who are bigger than you and are mean to you or push you around. Some kids are bullies some times but one kid (on our troop) is mean a lot

Calico

You are correct, cheerful service. I was kidding about doing it for nothing:)I hope the Scouts today get it, sometimes I wonder. I'm a SM for a troop that happens to be located just a few minutes drive from that same camp. We adopted a camp site and do one work weekend a year there prior to the camp opening for the season.

Calico

You mean I spent an entire weekend giving service to my local scout camp for no reason!

Than was almost 35 years ago and I still remember that weekend. It just seems to me we diminish the meaning when we make it easier to achieve.

Ive been a firefighter for 25 years for a large metropolitan department.

Im a new Scoutmaster (4 months now) who took over a troop in decline, with a lot of problems including some you have described. I have come to accept that what was done before I took over is already done, water under the bridge so to speak and there is not much I can do about it. However, I have made it very clear that I am a by the book kind of guy and that is how our troop is run today.

The OA thing, there isnt much you can do about it. Maybe just let the SM know who has made the camping trips for future elections.

Little or no POR work can be a problem in troops. The troop leadership needs to make these jobs an important part of the troops program. Not sitting on the BOR only takes you out of the solution and doesnt help the troop. Maybe you could work with the Librarian, Scribe and Historian to make the jobs more meaningful.

Skating MB, if the SM didnt sign the card before the work on the MB started then it shouldnt count. It seems like this scout needs a SM conference and refresher on the ideas of scouting.

Your son busted butt and made Eagle, another scout takes the path of least resistance and makes Eagle. They both get the medal but who gets more out of the program?

Ive been involved in Scouting for 20 years and Ive seen a lot that I dont agree with. Just the other day we were at our districts winter camp. The announcement was made by the OA Chapter that any Ordeal members that would like a new free sash can convert to Brotherhood, just show up after lunch. So one of my scouts goes and in less than an hour come back with a Brotherhood sash! All this so the chapter can make quality lodge! 30 some years ago I had to do an entire weekend to earn Brotherhood. I will probably mention this at the next Roundtable.

My advice (which I assume youre asking for by your post) is to take a deep breath, relax, look at what you can address, and work with the troop leadership to make the changes needed, one step at a time, in a Scout like manor.

You might consider quitting; I did when I saw how my sons troop was being run. I decided that we would leave when he stopped having fun and getting something worthwhile from the program. We stayed and I kept offering suggestions for change. Most were ignored but the word got out that someone was working towards positive change. Eventually the SM left and they asked me to take the job. Changes were made and things are better but there is a lot more to do.

There are a lot of new ideas out there in reference to lightweight backpacking that would benifit Scouting but many are stuck with in the old days. I doubt that I would have taken up backpacking again if it meant carrying a 50 lb pack again. I'm working with my troop to get them to go lighter. Freezerbag cooking and making their own backpacking meals from grocery store items, alcohol soda can stoves, are just a few ways. Home made gear can be part of the solution too but mainly it's just buying the right gear.

How much weight should a scout carry on a backpacking trip? Do you set a weight limit by % of body weight of the scout? What equipment can a scout buy that will lower his pack weight without breaking the bank?

Maybe that should be another thread. How much weight should a scout carry amd how to get to that limit or less without spending a lot of money?

I've backpacked hundreds of miles in trailrunning shoes without the ankle support problems you mention. The only negative is that I only get about 500 miles from a pair. A good heel cup and proper fit create a stable platform. Trail running requires a shoe that keeps the foot stable over a wide range of conditions. I would not recommend them for heavy backpacking of say 40 or more lbs. If your scouts are carrying that kind of load than go with the heavy boots but they won't enjoy themselves as much as if the were carrying a 20 lb. pack and going greater distances with more comfort. I remember as kids we would get that floating feeling when we dropped those 50 -60 pound packs! I'm too old for that now! Since the subject was how to outfit a scout for a reasonable amount of money I'll stand by my recomendation. I also suggest that if you're outfitting a scout read the article I mentioned.

If your looking for ideas on backpacking gear for new scouts check out this site:

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/boy_scout_gear_list.html

I copy this article and give it to all my new scouts.

They also have a Philmont gear list that recommends more appropriate equipment for high adventure.

As far as boots go scouts might consider a high quality trail running shoe with a stiff sole. I've put many miles on a pair of Montrail trail runners while backpacking the AT with no problems. They are lighter than full boots (a pound on the foot is eaqual to 5 in the pack) Also you could consider them duel purpose since the boys can wear them to school too. Kids will out grow a boot before they wear them out.

This is a very, very sad. The troop lost a scout (at east one, don't know if the brothers were in the troop too but they were old enough to be) and a Scoutmaster. I live in the area where this happened and this story has had non-stop media coverage all week. Most of the times they mention he was a scout, one story said he was one interiew (BOR?)away from Eagle. The community and especially the local Scouting community is devistated over this. What a waste.

Lisabob,

I agree. Our Scout that did one 6 month term as Librarian and thinks he's done for his Eagle requirement will be asked to be an Instructor and be responsible for teaching basic Scout Skills one meeting a month and will also help teach the new Scouts.

In an earlier post I asked if this could be addressed under the Scout Spirit requirment. If a Scout is asked to take a possition and declines for no other reason than he feels he has met the requirement and doesn't need to do anymore then it would be my opinion that he is not living up to the Scout Law, specically being Loyal and Helpful. I will point out to the scout that when I write my letter of recomendation to the Eagle BOR I would rather write that he has always been very helpful and has exceeded the minimum requirements for Eagle. In the next few weeks I will be introducing one of our scouts to an Eagle BOR and he will get my highest recomendation becuase he has always been willing help when asked.

Should one 6 month term (held before I was SM) as Librarian with little or no responsibility count as the POR for Eagle? Technically I think so, but should it? What if the same Scout was asked to hold another term in a more responsible possition such as ASPL because there was no one else available and his response was "I'm not good at that leadership stuff"? Would you address this under the Scout Spirit requirement?

Class of 1971, Baltimore Area Council, currently a Scoutmaster. Have you though of joining the National Eagle Scout Association? They are currently trying to document every Eagle Scout, for more information go to: http://www.nesa.org/misc/essearch.html

Thanks to everyone for your help. I've decided on the standard Timberline 4 man tent. At 7lbs. 13 oz. it averages to 2 lbs. 8ozs if the weight is divided by three. I plan on 3 Scouts per tent during backpacking trips only, the rest of the time they will sleep 2 per tent. This seems to be the best compromise. The 2 man Timberline would average almost 3 lbs. when divided by two Scouts for backpacking and would be too small for our older Scouts. Thanks again!

Does BSA have a square footage per Scout standard for tents?

Gotta love that REI warrenty. I've bought from them for years and never had a problem with them taking care of a problem.

Our troop needs to buy new tents so I'd like some input on what type, brand and size tent you use. What do you consider when buying tents? I'm thinking a tent big enough for 2 and maybe 3 if we have an odd number of Scouts would be a good size. Price is a consideration but I'm willing to spend as much as is needed for quality tents. Weight is also a consideration since we have 2 backpacking trips planned this year. At least a 3 season tent is needed since we camp all year and it gets cold here in MD during the winter. So what type of tent do you use and why?

sst3rd,

Our troop is blessed with a core group of parents who hold the various adult positions. We have a very supportive committtee and our COR who has held the SM job several times over the years has been a big help. It sounds like pizza at at troop meeting might be the reward for winning the patrol compitition along with some type of trophy. It helps that one of our Eagles from years ago ownes the local pizza shop!

Thanks for the advice. I'm new at this and need all the help I can get! The money idea is something I was not inclined to do but was wondering if anyone else was doing. I'm still trying to find ways to increase attendance and membership in the troop. Reading these forums has given me some great ideas. Our troop has had declining membership for the last few years going from about 30 active boys to about 13. Lack of program and recruiting is the big reason for this. The program was not much, mostly car camping and nothing planned for troop meetings so goofing off was the usual activity. The Patrol Method was not being used, Scout camped in groups accourding to age with the older Scouts all camping under one big tarp regardless of which patrol they were in. No patrol flags, cheers or compititions. Uniforms were sometimes worn. At times only one of seven boys in a patrol would show up to a meeting, usually when that patrol had responsibilty for the meeting. The first thing I did when I became SM was to sit down with the Scouts and ask them what they wanted to do for camping trips, they seemed to just want to do the same old thing. I suggested things like bike hikes, canoe trips, backpacking (my hobby) and rock climbing. The Scouts took many of my suggestions and seem to be excited about the trips. We went on a 30 mile bike hike in October and the few boys that went had a great time. I heaped praise on these Scouts at the next troop meeting for making it the entire distance even though they had the opportunity to quit halfway through. I was really proud of them! The troop meetings now center on preparing for the upcoming camping trip and reviewing skills related to the theme of the month which relates to the camping trip. This is how I remember doing it 35 years ago. The Scouts are now responsible for choosing the theme, planning of meetings, and requesting the equipment / materials needed. Planning has to be in writing and submitted to the SPL a month ahead of time. My plan for recruiting is to develop and maintain good relations with the two packs in our area. Provide den chiefs, offer to loan camping equipment and invite Webelos to our meetings. In time I hope we can inprove our program and increase membership. I would appriciate any suggestions anyone has. Thanks for all the help!

We've been looking at some type of patrol compitition too on a quarterly basis. I didn't know about the idea being in an old Scoutmaster's handbook but since I have most of them I'll look it up. Just wondering about the reward for winning. Thoughts have been anywhere from money (maybe $5 - $10 to each scout to his account) to a trophy passed from winning patrol to patrol. One thought was to allow the winning patrol to assign 1 task that they need to do such as doing their dished during a camping trip or latrine duty at summer camp to another patrol. Do you think this would work?

In our troop the Star and higher Scouts sign off on First Class and below requirements. I'm sure there is a lot of "did it once so sign me off" going on. Since I just took over as SM last month I'm looking at how to change this. Got any ideas anyone? Do the SM and SAs check off requirements in most troops or do the Scouts do it? I think somewhere slightly less than #3 or reasonably proficient is what I would be looking for.