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'Rogue' UK Girl Guide troop won't use new non-religious promise, excludes new leader

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  • #61
    Just a quick fly by, during a work break.. Merlyn sorry, for some reason did not see your last post until now.. I will get back to you after work.. I won't poke at you too much though, I see some real constructive discussion in your last post.. I am encouraged, so even though I though I would end it when I returned to work today, I will Try a few more go rounds and see if we can make some progress with some real communication.. But I need more time to study what you wrote, and think about it.. I have one or two things already, but it can wait until I have more time tonight..

    Comment


    • #62
      Sorry, I didn't get to this after work.. I ended up strangely with another person who thinks like Merlyn.. Someone left the Pack due to the vote & his beliefs.. I thought I had taken him off the email, but to the group, in an email about things we need to discuss.. I put in 2 to 3 sentences on him.. "I don't know who knows this, but Xxxxxx and his son has left scouting, due to the recent vote to accept homosexual youth in scouting. So we will wish him well." So he emailed back to the group that to explain that I had not stated things right, because somehow in that I said "HE" doesn't accept homosexual youth, and that he no longer follows the scouting laws and values.. So I wrote something back explaining what I meant be what I said.. And if anyone doesn't see what I meant, you can ask me to explain what I meant..

      Anyway.. Merlyn.. Where to begin..

      Just for clarity..
      "Sorry, it's the majority I would welcome and the fraction I would want to make sure the BSA planned for how to deal with in a pro-active manner.

      Uh, that doesn't contradict what I wrote. I pointed out you keep bringing up atheists you don't want in the BSA, even in this thread, which is about an atheist being excluded by people who refuse to allow her to take the official promise. I haven't said one way or the other about which group of atheists is larger."
      It was in answer to this that you wrote..
      I don't care that you would allow some fraction of the "right kind" of atheists.

      In answer to this statement of yours:
      Or if these same people did join, why would consider entering BSA a place that religious tradition would be tolerated..

      I can't really parse that, but if you're referring to people who want to remove "religious symbols from any public place", like I said, I don't know of any.
      Again, what people are you talking about? You haven't pointed to any specific people.

      Yeah, my bad.. I must have cut something out and totally garbled the statement.. I was more ask if these type of people would not have a interest in joining BSA.. I was thinking of the complaint of incoming homosexuals being the real effeminate personalities and having boys running around camp in high heels and pink silk, where it just didn't make sense that these young men would have an interesting in camping and hiking..

      As to your comments as it is always on government property, not public.. I appreciate that is the main intent, but even that goes a little beyond civil disagreement, because most the time, it isn't enough to win, but there is a lot of finding ways to try to use the win to attempt to humiliate the looser.. Yeah, Yeah.. Probably they do it back to you.. But I don't get that with a win from the homosexual community.. They are just thrilled and enrich their lives with the win..

      Well they don't have to remove symbols, after all that would be vandalism and worthy of jail time.. It's more in your face, insulting and harassing things, that don't just pertain to government places..
      So if they have no interest in joining, why do you keep bringing up "people who want to join a group simply to create a hostile environment for all"?
      What people are you talking about?
      and
      I can't really parse that, but if you're referring to people who want to remove "religious symbols from any public place", like I said, I don't know of any.
      Again, what people are you talking about? You haven't pointed to any specific people.
      Take this article. http://www.christianpost.com/news/oh...t-group-56893/

      This is by an organized atheist group, not just some yo-yo.. Although individual yo-yo's can do their own damage, and in BSA we usually get the individuals..

      I know you can say "Well they should pay taxes.." or something.. But there are other things.. Putting their anti-religious message on the Churches Billboard?? (I don't know how it got their, they lied about who they were and what they were going to put up, or they put it up in the middle of the night..) I would imagine something legal or the church could have pressed charges.. This I have heard similar stories maybe not on the property, but on the lawn across the street or next door to..

      Even with the taxes, I don't know about the law, I mean churches have many business type things that they raise money with, and it's non-profit, and yeah it may pay mortgage & electricity, but I depending on the church, that profit may be paying food for the homeless etc.. Still that is not what irks me.. It is just the continual attack on this one church.. There was a vendetta here, don't know what, but this was personal..

      Another story..
      the Lost Cajun Kitchen, a small, mom-and-pop restaurant located in Pennsylvania. The restaurant made news, because it offered a discount on Sundays to anyone bringing in a church bulletin, and a particular atheist decided to sue them over it. Little did the restaurant owners know just how good that action would be for business!

      Private business, not government.. Ok Atheists can't take advantage of the discount, but neither can you take a senior discount if it is for seniors, You can take advantage of a AAA discount unless you are a AAA member... So... What???


      Perhaps I am being to sensitive, about this.. But, there hostility, does go over the line of just riding government of religious symbols..



      Comment


      • #63
        As to your comments as it is always on government property, not public.. I appreciate that is the main intent, but even that goes a little beyond civil disagreement, because most the time, it isn't enough to win, but there is a lot of finding ways to try to use the win to attempt to humiliate the looser.

        What are you talking about? Disputes over religious symbols on government property are typically handled by sending a letter citing legal precedents to whoever is in charge of that property, with court cases later if it comes to that. Where's this "humiliation"?

        It's more in your face, insulting and harassing things, that don't just pertain to government places..

        Well again, some examples would help.

        Take this article. http://www.christianpost.com/news/oh...t-group-56893/

        This is by an organized atheist group, not just some yo-yo.. Although individual yo-yo's can do their own damage, and in BSA we usually get the individuals..


        I know you can say "Well they should pay taxes.." or something..

        Of course they should pay taxes that are due.

        But there are other things.. Putting their anti-religious message on the Churches Billboard?? (I don't know how it got their, they lied about who they were and what they were going to put up, or they put it up in the middle of the night..)

        Neither of those. Now you're just making things up in order to try and slam the atheists who put up the billboard.

        Here's more info. The second link even explains why the story you linked to is slanted against the atheist group:
        http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendl...rch-complains/
        http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendl...inting-it-out/

        I would imagine something legal or the church could have pressed charges.. This I have heard similar stories maybe not on the property, but on the lawn across the street or next door to..

        So what? Atheists have the same first amendment rights as anyone else.

        the Lost Cajun Kitchen, a small, mom-and-pop restaurant located in Pennsylvania. The restaurant made news, because it offered a discount on Sundays to anyone bringing in a church bulletin, and a particular atheist decided to sue them over it. Little did the restaurant owners know just how good that action would be for business!

        Private business, not government.. Ok Atheists can't take advantage of the discount, but neither can you take a senior discount if it is for seniors, You can take advantage of a AAA discount unless you are a AAA member... So... What???

        Because offering a discount that discriminates on the basis of religion violates the civil rights act of 1964, just like a restaurant that had, say, an extra $5 cover charge to serve Muslims. It's illegal and has been illegal for decades. It isn't too much to ask public accommodations to follow the law.

        Comment


        • #64
          IT'S THE MESSAGE THAT WOULD INSULT THE CHURCH MEMBERS ON THE BB THAT SAT ON THEIR PROPERTY.. Your group did not need to do that, just sue them if you are going to sue them..
          Because offering a discount that discriminates on the basis of religion violates the civil rights act of 1964,
          Well the Senior citizen discount, or child rates must be discrimination on age also.. Have you picked any fights over those? With discounts, sometimes you can use them, and sometimes you can't.
          So what? Atheists have the same first amendment rights as anyone else
          This is marginalizing the fact that you feel your first amendment rights give you a right to harass and insult anyone you like as long as you find a legal way to do so.. I never stated these people (the fringe group) were criminals, I stated they were antagonistic and would want into BSA simply to find ways to push to remove any religious tradition from the BSA curriculum.. Perhaps your argument it on the grounds of "civil rights" in being discriminated against due to religious beliefs because you are now a member of the BSA, and can not attend the Troops plans to go Christmas caroling at a nearby hospital, or whatever.. In fact I think that was the issue of the women who joined a group with religious ties, then complained about her civil rights being violated because her and (son? daughter?) were given the option to sit quietly, or walk away from the group for the (prayer? oath?) rather then be able to enjoy the whole program.. Wish I could find the piece, but I can't remember any words or phrases that picks up the surfing the net..



          Sorry, but your explanations do not help in the least.. These are examples your group does not only focus on government owned properties.. Finding a way to legally push your agenda to be intolerant of other groups doesn't change the negative effect, and the fact that people who stoop to this type of rationalization as to why they are morally right to harass groups they dislike is not people welcomed in the BSA..

          First you say your group would never behave in an intolerant manner toward religious groups, now you say, unless we can find a way to legally do so..
          Last edited by moosetracker; 08-28-2013, 04:55 AM.

          Comment


          • #65
            Here is something interesting coming to the UK soon.. I wonder why Cambridgskip didn't mention it...

            The British scouts are going to welcome in atheists with the idea I have to keep the religious tradition, but give atheists a separate oath they can take.. This will be a great testing ground to watch, although there legal system is different, so even if it works the question will be if there was a legal way the atheists could have forced full change, and did not go that root, -or- did the British laws not give them a legal avenue, yet ours would have one..
            British scouts to welcome atheists

            By Trevor Grundy| Religion News Service,June 28, 2013
            CANTERBURY, England — The British scouting movement will soon welcome atheists who are reluctant to join the worldwide organization because they must take an oath to serve God.
            Trustees from the Scouting Association — whose patron is Queen Elizabeth II — are preparing to meet next week to approve a new scouting oath for atheists — thus putting them on par with Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Sikhs and Hindus.
            While those with religious affiliations will continue to promise to do their duty to both God and the queen, the new “Atheist Promise” (as it’s being called here) will say something different — although the exact words have not yet been released.

            Comment


            • #66
              IT'S THE MESSAGE THAT WOULD INSULT THE CHURCH MEMBERS ON THE BB THAT SAT ON THEIR PROPERTY.. Your group did not need to do that, just sue them if you are going to sue them..

              The atheist group DIDN'T KNOW THE BILLBOARD WAS ON A CHURCH'S PROPERTY WHEN THEY WENT TO A BILLBOARD COMPANY AND BOUGHT BILLBOARD SPACE.

              Plus, THEY NEVER SUED THE CHURCH FOR ANYTHING, BECAUSE THERE WAS NO LEGAL ISSUE AT STAKE. The billboard company moved the atheist billboard to a different one.

              Are atheists supposed to be clairvoyant now? Seems a bit out of character.

              Well the Senior citizen discount, or child rates must be discrimination on age also.

              Yes, it is. However, it is legal discrimination (in the case of restaurants) because the civil rights act does not prohibit it. It does prohibit religious discrimination.
              So what? Atheists have the same first amendment rights as anyone else
              This is marginalizing the fact that you feel your first amendment rights give you a right to harass and insult anyone you like as long as you find a legal way to do so..

              Harassment can be a tort, but yes, the first amendment gives everyone the right to insult anyone. Want some links from religious billboards that specifically insult atheists? There are plenty.

              I never stated these people (the fringe group) were criminals, I stated they were antagonistic and would want into BSA simply to find ways to push to remove any religious tradition from the BSA curriculum

              Yeah, that's the way you like to make up motives for atheists, instead of what they actually do.

              Perhaps your argument it on the grounds of "civil rights" in being discriminated against due to religious beliefs because you are now a member of the BSA, and can not attend the Troops plans to go Christmas caroling at a nearby hospital, or whatever..

              Perhaps you continue to make up arguments out of whole cloth in order to denigrate atheists.
              The BSA, even if it admits atheists, is still a private organization, and that would not be actionable. But you just have to make up scenarios where you can complain about atheists.

              In fact I think that was the issue of the women who joined a group with religious ties, then complained about her civil rights being violated because her and (son? daughter?) were given the option to sit quietly, or walk away from the group for the (prayer? oath?) rather then be able to enjoy the whole program..

              Yeah, there's a reference I can check.

              Finding a way to legally push your agenda to be intolerant of other groups doesn't change the negative effect, and the fact that people who stoop to this type of rationalization as to why they are morally right to harass groups they dislike is not people welcomed in the BSA..

              So if atheists sue over something and win, meaning the atheists were in the right and defending their civil rights, they aren't welcome in your view. I guess they're too uppity and should know their place.

              By the way, the rogue GG troop has agreed to use the new, official oath.
              http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ular-oath.html

              PS: I also started a thread back in June about the UK scouting association announcing they will admit atheists, but it looks like it's one of the threads that was lost with the new forum changes. The google cache is here:
              http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=us
              Last edited by Merlyn_LeRoy; 08-28-2013, 09:14 AM.

              Comment


              • #67
                Not know their place or too uppity..

                Let's say I owned two cats, one sweet and loveable, and one that is a cranky flea bitten bag that is always out fighting cats and even a dog or two in order to be king of the neighborhood, but both are part of my family and even the cranky one has traits I like, though I kind of wish he had a better personality.. So I got friends that I like a lot, and they ask if they can spend a week at my place while their house gets renovated.. I would love them to come, but there is a problem.. They got a mangy dog they want to bring with them.. He is known to have killed 3 or 4 cats and 5 or six more had to have surgery losing a tail, ear or paw.. They want to bring their dog to my house.. First I tell them I don't think the dog will be a good idea with my cats.. The husband gets all insulted and says how dare I say his dog would ever do that, He has yet to have eaten my cats, so it is very unfair.. (never mind the dog has never been near my cats).. So I point out all the other cats in the neighborhood he has eaten.. The husband defends the dog, after all you can't blame him cats are tasty, and it is in his nature to eat cats.. I am still unsold, so the couple leave the house with their dog, and I watch as he walks down my road in my neighborhood watching the dog slurping up 2 or 3 cats enroute and spitting out the bones, with the husband just patting his dog's head and saying "Was that good?? Yeah.. good boy!! "


                Well it will be interesting to watch how the UK fares, but one good thing, sounds like their main sponsors for the program are more like community centers of the town then churches.. So perhaps except for the oath, they may have less of a tie with religions, and atheists did not find a way to kick them out of the community centers due to the fact they weren't included.. So it might be less of a fire/water mix.. But, hopefully we will see some of our British friends who can keep us updated.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Not know their place or too uppity..

                  Let's say I owned two cats, one sweet and loveable, and one that is a cranky flea bitten bag that is always out fighting cats and even a dog or two in order to be king of the neighborhood, but both are part of my family and even the cranky one has traits I like, though I kind of wish he had a better personality..


                  Now use this analogy about blacks.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    In the analogy the cat is the conservative religious sector in the BSA.. Note, it already is a member of my home..So they must be the whites (in the black & white world..) The other group, (Couple & their dog) just can't plausibly be tied in to the black population.. Guess again..
                    Last edited by moosetracker; 08-28-2013, 05:16 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      The other group, (Couple & their dog) just can't plausibly be tied in to the black population..

                      Of course they can; all you need to do is hold the black population in contempt.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Contempt, no.. Because I don't hold the man/women & dog in contempt.. Fear, yes, the story shows fear of the dog.. But, in order for the story to fit closer to a black/white story.. The dog would have to just look mean, maybe be a little loud so we can say he barks a lot.. but be a lovable good natured dog.. Also the wife asking for entry could remain.. There were many blacks that did not get involved in the civil Rights movement.. Then the man?? Definitely would defend his dog, but he could take pride in talking about his dogs peaceful nature and can try to assure me, that while he has a loud bark outside when indoors he is quiet as he has no reason to bark..

                        The organized protests of the civil rights had a strong leader who pushed them to push for equality in a peaceful manner, so that the blacks were kept their dignity and pride, But, there peaceful protest 'caused the whites that killed and beat the blacks the only ones in the wrong, and soon caused the nation to see who was right, and who was wrong in the fight so that they backed the cause of the black people. They would not have, had the blacks in the civil rights movement gone around beating and murdering the whites.. Both would be wrong, and the war between the two organized hostile groups would have just raged on until they were all dead or in jail..
                        Last edited by moosetracker; 08-29-2013, 04:14 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Contempt, no.. Because I don't hold the man/women & dog in contempt.

                          WHOOSH is the sound of my point going way over your head.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            The British scouts are going to welcome in atheists with the idea I have to keep the religious tradition, but give atheists a separate oath they can take.. This will be a great testing ground to watch, although there legal system is different, so even if it works the question will be if there was a legal way the atheists could have forced full change, and did not go that root, -or- did the British laws not give them a legal avenue, yet ours would have one..
                            Here is a little secret about Scouting in the UK - well its not really a secret - but to say otherwise doesn't sound as impressive.
                            In the UK we all run to the standard rules and regulations for Scouting- known as POR ( Policy Organisation and Rules)
                            Chapter 2 http://members.scouts.org.uk/documen...ap_02_2011.pdf contains within it the Equal opportunities policy there a re two slightly differnt versions, one for young people ( ie youth members) and one for Adults the Adult version has this to say on religious belief:
                            Note: With reference to religious belief, the
                            avowed absence of religious belief is a bar to
                            appointment to a Leadership position.



                            Leadership position refers to an Adult member, and not a youth member. As long as a youth member can say the Scout promise and Law there is no problem, which brings up the following issue:

                            The UK Scout Promise (Scout association) is currently worded like so:

                            On my honor,
                            I promise that I will do my best,
                            to do my duty to God, and to the Queen
                            To help other people and to keep the Scout law

                            and the Scout law is as follows:
                            1. A Scout is to be trusted.
                            2. A Scout is loyal.
                            3. A Scout is friendly and considerate.
                            4. A Scout belongs to the worldwide family of Scouts.
                            5. A Scout has courage in all difficulties.
                            6. A Scout makes good use of time and is careful of possessions and property.
                            7. A Scout has self-respect and respect for others.
                            With regards to the promise there are a a few variations for separate religions , for those who can not say the Scout promise, information on that here http://www.scoutbase.org.uk/library/...s/fs322016.pdf im guessing that there will be another variation for those who at the time of making/saying the Scout promise fell they have/or have not yet found their faith.


                            Next.....
                            Well it will be interesting to watch how the UK fares, but one good thing, sounds like their main sponsors for the program are more like community centers of the town then churches.. So perhaps except for the oath, they may have less of a tie with religions, and atheists did not find a way to kick them out of the community centers due to the fact they weren't included.. So it might be less of a fire/water mix.. But, hopefully we will see some of our British friends who can keep us updated.
                            Scouting in the UK is organised differently to that in he USA, we have few sponsored groups, and no Chartered organisations, most Scout Groups are their own entity, i will try and explain....

                            A Scout Group can consist of any, all, or multiples of the following:
                            Beaver colony
                            Cub Pack
                            Scout Troop
                            These as a part of the group are all one unit, and the sections within that Group ( unit ) usualy meet etc on separate days, however they may all join up for big events and at certain times/occaisions.
                            Each Section has its own leaders, and in some cases may share leaders with other Sections so a Scout Leader ( in BSA speak Scout Master) may also be an Assistant Cub Leader.
                            Overseeing all this is a Group Scout leader, and instead of a charter org/sponsor whatever we have a Group Scout Executive committee ( all volunteers ) these are usually made up of parents, ex scouters, and any one else we can grab, the Group Exec usualy looks after things like Adult Recruitment fundraising finances, public relations, Equipment ( ie camping stuff) Looking after the Scout Groups own building(s) and any other premises - or where a Scout group doesn't own its building arranging with community halls etc to find somewhere for the Groups sections to meet.
                            If the Scout Group is sponsored then a representative form that sponsoring body may also be present of the Group Exec. If the sponsorship lapses then things just carry on: ie a sposnsored Scout group has free access to a Church hall and their sponsorship ends. The church may then levy a fee , just like any other community group would be for the use of its facilities.
                            Its usually in the church's ( or any other such place ) best interest to make their halls etc open to the wider community to use, as in doing so the church can then claim government grants etc towards the upkeep of their facilities as they are being used by the community.
                            To sum up this means that there is no single external body or other non governmental organisation that can throw a 'wobbly' over Scout policy and threaten to withdraw youth members.

                            As for other Scout organisations, the UK Scout Assocaiton does not have a monopoly on the term Scouting/Scouts and there are a few other organisations in existence, such as the Baden Powell Scouts, British boy and Girl Scouts, and a few more. However these are very much in the minority and i have yet to meet any in person.
                            If a UK Scout Association group decides to move to the Baden-Powell Scouts for example, then they are free to do so. However the UK Scout Association will see this group as having closed and all its assets ( buildings/equipment/funds etc) will transfer to the Scout (Association) District

                            And as for the so called Three G's issue thats mentioned from time to time on here:
                            UK Scouting:
                            Girls: We have had Female leaders since the very early days of Scouting, Girls could join Venture Scouts ( as it was then) from sometime in the 1970's In 1991 Girls could join other sections ( beavers/cubs/Scouts ) if the Group agreed to be Co-ed once a Group was co-ed all other sections above had to also become Co-ed and there was no going back to single sex. in 2007 All Goups had to accept girls any leaders refusing this were removed from Scouting, information here: https://members.scouts.org.uk/documents/girlstm.pdf

                            Gays: in reality these are very much a minority group, however we can not discriminate at all on the basis of sexual orientation any one doing so will be removed form Scouting
                            Factsheet here (Adults) http://www.scoutbase.org.uk/library/...s/fs185081.pdf and here (Youth) http://www.scoutbase.org.uk/library/...s/fs185082.pdf

                            God: covered above: but only an avowed absence of religious belief is a bar to an adult becoming a leader, so if someone believes in something but doesn't know what (Agnostic? ) then thats OK - as for Youth as long as they can get over the hurdle of saying "Do my duty to God" ( or any variation thereof ) then that's OK.

                            hope that answers a few questions.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              My feeling exactly about you Merlyn, you just can't get the difference of how the blacks worked their civil rights movement and the Homosexuals worked their civil rights movement which allowed them to stand their ground, keep their pride and dignity, get their message across LOUDLY.. And turn the nation in the direction of supporting their cause, due to the amount of dignity, and Respect that they conducted their movement despite the horrible treatment that they received.. Your movement, is just not going in the right direction.. From what I can see, if all atheists in this movement are exactly like you, then I believe you guys really don't care.. Your just having fun with you low level harassment at the enemy..

                              Martin Luther King's dream was not that his people respond to the brutality in kind, but rise above it.. The nation stood up and took notice of how worthy they were, and how wrong the treatment they received was.. It was not about taking a baseball bat to the whites who took one to you, or burning the home of those who burned down yours.. It wasn't a movement of "They did it to us, so we have the right to do the same.. The homosexuals figured out the formula and were able to work the same magic..

                              Two wrongs don't make a right.. And therefore, until your group figures out the right formula, (that if you guys are even interested) the nation will simply not take up the issue for either side, just let you fight like cats and dogs.. Unfortunately BSA is already living with the cat, so it would be difficult to incorporate the dog in the same house.. Perhaps if we had the dog living with us, then it would be the cat we would need to be skeptical about adding to the mix.


                              Pint.. Thanks for the info.. But it seems you are saying that the oath is the oath with the God in it.. But it sounds like as of June they now have two oaths one with and one without.. Is that not true?.. Are adults as of the new ruling still barred and the youth only get to say the different oath? If that's the case, you are starting off with your atheist mix as are doing with our homosexual mix..
                              Last edited by moosetracker; 08-29-2013, 06:58 PM.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                You just don't know history, moosetracker. There were the black panthers and Malcolm X, and for that matter MLK was considered extreme by a lot of people at the time. The Stonewall riots were actual, violent riots, and you might want to look into more radical gay rights groups like Bash Back.

                                So your fainting couch antics in protesting how horrible atheists are for having the gall to file lawsuits is pathetic.

                                Comment

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