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'Rogue' UK Girl Guide troop won't use new non-religious promise, excludes new leader

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  • #16
    Moose'; You do realize don't you that no matter what you say, it will not appease him? If he disagrees with something, and another suggests that there is room for the awful "compromise", he starts shouting somehow that is making atheists (him) a second class citizen or something similar. Reality is that he is only made one if he allows it to be so; it is a personal problem, and none of us will solve it or his insecurity. JMHO of course.

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    • #17
      Hey, I can always depend on you to insult me, skeptic. Very scoutlike of you.

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      • #18
        Hey now! Don't judge all atheists based on Merlyn's agenda. I know some folks who choose not to believe in God who think that it is perfectly fine for others to have a religion.

        And they don't think that religious folks are a threat to them...

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        • #19
          Here's a hint, JoeBob; I think much the same way (though I wouldn't say that NO religious folks are a threat, as a few want atheists imprisoned or executed for being atheists). That's one reason I called out moosetracker on his lie about how I supposedly "feel". He got it wrong.

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          • #20
            Thanks for not calling me a "liar" too.

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            • #21
              I would only call you a liar if I thought you had lied.

              You might not have noticed, but as far as I can recall, every instance that I've called people out-and-out liars in this forum is when they try to tell me what I think or feel, as if they can read my mind, and they also managed to get it wrong in each case.

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              • #22
                Merlyn, I'm just curious. What drives you to carry the atheist torch so passionately?

                Here's why I ask: I associate passion more with religious folks (emotional need to fill an unexplained void), and I associate reason with atheists (cold hard facts that God exists?).

                But you seem to be passionately atheist, and I have trouble wrapping my mind around that.

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                • MattR
                  MattR commented
                  Editing a comment
                  I'd say there can be passion without religion, look at PETA, or the vitamin junkies at Whole Foods..

                  Passion can be a good thing, art, running, gardening, one's spouse, boy scouts.... Passion isn't the problem, the problem is when passion spills over into telling others how to live when they don't agree.

              • #23
                I'm passionate about rights for atheists, not atheism per se.

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                • #24
                  Merlin : "You might not have noticed, but as far as I can recall, every instance that I've called people out-and-out liars in this forum is when they try to tell me what I think or feel, as if they can read my mind, and they also managed to get it wrong in each case. "

                  Merlin : "Then you should have no problem coming up with an exact quote from me that means "Why do you feel in order to respect the beliefs of atheists, you need to disrespect the beliefs of non-atheists?" But instead you just re-read what I wrote and make up how you think I "feel" due to your own prejudices."

                  Ok Merlyn , If asking you an open ended question that is aimed at you opening up and explaining to me why I am picking up a vibe from you I have never sensed from you before.. The same comment also included this "Actually I did not know that we disagreed That much, I though my disagreement was being for your cause with reservations, I had though you agreed with finding ways to respect each groups beliefs.. I guess I was wrong, you now sound like you are one who first purpose is to get in, and whose second purpose is to pull apart what some people find a core purpose of their BSA experience.. ".

                  Let me point out where you have LIED about me.. (I chose to think you misinterpreted, but your comments were statements, and asked for no open minded discussion about it. So if I am lying about you in asking you to explain your comments, you are lying more about me in these close minded statements.

                  1)
                  "Then you should have no problem coming up with an exact quote from me that means "Why do you feel in order to respect the beliefs of atheists, you need to disrespect the beliefs of non-atheists?" But instead you just re-read what I wrote and make up how you think I "feel" due to your own prejudices." (I had to repeat it.. because this was not the purpose of my open ended question.. Point out to me where I even made a statement, or where I said this question was asking you was a quote by you?? So.. Liar, Liar, pants on fire!..


                  2) "Just like you're not being respectful of atheists right now. Hypocrite" I ask you to point out where in my statements I have said I disrespect atheists? and Where in my statement do I claim to be a Hypocrite..? Liar, Liar, pants on fire!

                  3) "It isn't respectful to assume atheists are likely to act like that. It's like claiming you're not racist, but adding that any black kids that join have to respect the white kids, while not mentioning anything about how the white kids have to act regarding the black kids. You're singling out one group for potential bad behavior and taking for granted that the other group is all sweetness 'n' light." Point out to me where I said the other group is all sweetness 'n' light? Point out to me where I said the whole group of atheists are trouble.. I said A FRACTION of atheists.. I made NO comment about current members.. You read into that what you wanted to.. So, are you stating ALL atheists are angels and absolutely NO ONE has an ulterior motive? Yet at the same time you defend banning all religious displays from public view, because public displays because these are for everyone, not just the majority.. So explain how you can respect the tradition of religion having deep roots in BSA and not view BSA opening their doors to your group does not mean anyone in your group would ever dream of trying to ban religion from BSA in order to accommodate y "everyone". Where did I state that NO current BSA member will not be welcoming to you.. Why does not mentioning that problem mean I am stating there is no problem.. They don't need mentioning, they are the KNOWN ELEMENT and have a history that makes it a known fact what the reaction will be, and also a known fact on how to deal with it. There are BSA units that don't welcome women leaders, there are groups that are not welcoming homosexual groups. There are still groups that don't welcome blacks. There are groups who don't welcome the handicap. There are groups that don't welcome anyone who is not of their religion.. What will you have to do coming in? Find a group that welcomes you and which you feel comfortable with their values. Or start a group that will have your values.. For you that will be easy. As soon as homosexuals and atheist are accepted, then you can start forming groups in public schools again.. Liar, Liar, pants on fire!

                  Hmm.. Your lies are starting to add up..




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                  • #25
                    Look, moosetracker, you wrote "Why do you feel in order to respect the beliefs of atheists, you need to disrespect the beliefs of non-atheists?"

                    That's a lie. You attempted to tell ME how I felt, and you got it wrong.

                    If that upsets you, that's your problem. Now you're just whining.

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                    • #26
                      So I whined in one post. and that just to show to you how you have been acting over this issue, If you see whining in these comments then, you see a mirror of yourself. by not accepting a question as a way to ask you to open up, by not seeing that your comment that I was being disrespectful to atheists by welcoming them in only if they are of the mind to be respectful of those who have a religious belief, this based on the fact that you do have a FRACTION of atheists who are bent on not being tolerant of those with religious beliefs..

                      There are few on these boards who will give atheists in the group a second thought.. If my being welcoming with a few reservations, is being disrespectful of your group, and a hypocrite.. Well then you are displaying an attitude of not being willing to address those concerns.. Is this an attitude of someone who is respectful of others? Is this the action of someone who wants to put someone who is leaning in your direction, to become totally convinced that your group will be an positive influence to the group dynamic..

                      I expected from you a serious discussion as to WHY you feel atheists will make good neighbors, and do not see the entrance to BSA as then being a reason to demand that God be eradicated in order to How did you put it about money and statues quote : [are supposed to be for everyone, not just the majority.}.. When if you push to eradicate God, you are simply making the world be for your group, at the expense of the majority.. I got no serious conversation.. Just Ranting and Raving by you about how my interpretation of your writing and asking you to discuss this, is a lie.. While every comment that you made about me was totally picking and choosing and then interpreting what you THOUGHT I said, or what you THOUGHT I meant.. Over and Over and Over again.. You are attempting to tell ME how I felt and you are wrong, OVER and Over and Over again..

                      So either stop whining and give me a serious discussion as to why you think atheists and the religious sector can co-exist in the BSA and respect each others viewpoints, and stop whining about how unfair I am to even consider it a potential problem.. "Methinks you doth protest too much..." Sorry it does nothing to relieve my hesitation on the subject matter.

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                      • #27
                        Football Club Discriminates Against Baseball Player
                        Columbus, Ohio

                        There's troubling news coming out of the suburbs of Ohio this week, where a football team has denied membership to a young baseball player.
                        "I don't understand--I just don't understand," said Janet Smithers, speaking about her son Kaden's recent expulsion, "all my baby wants to do is play baseball, and these mean-spirited, these bigoted football parents and coaches are making him feel like he's nothing, like he's less-than!"
                        The boy, 10, joined the football club with no problems, and had been happily participating in conditioning before the season begins. By all accounts, he was a standout, in the top of the group in physical ability. "Everyone was always saying how fast he could run, and complimenting his team spirt," Smithers explained, "then one day out come these shoulder pads and helmets and footballs, and Kaden is a Baseball player." The next day, Smithers sent her son to practice with his mitt and baseball. Kaden called about 20 minutes into practice, in tears, and asked her to come get him early.
                        "Kaden got into the car, and my heart broke, it sank. He loved practice, but here he was in tears, and he says, 'mama, I don't want to come back here.'" Smithers took the boy home, and when he calmed down she heard his story, and it infuriated her.
                        "That coach," she seethed, "and his band of bullies told Kaden to put his baseball things away, that this was a football team for people who play football, and that if Kaden wanted to play with the team, he'd be playing football. Can you believe the . . . the hate it would take to say something like that? This is America!! Is this America?"
                        We contacted the coach for comment, but he eclined, referring us instead to the league. The league says it feels for Kaden, but that football teams are for football, and that's the way it's always been.
                        Smithers, in the meantime, is not waiting on the league to find its own conscience, she has contacted Footballers for Not-Football, an advocacy group, and started an online petition. "I have to stand up for my baby's rights," she said. And wouldn't anyone.

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                        • #28
                          Moosetracker, you've posted articles in the past just to whine about atheists who were the "wrong sort" to join the BSA, and you're still whining.

                          Scouter99, you have apparently not noticed that the Girl Guides changed their promise so they wouldn't be excluding atheists, yet this GG unit in the news article has taken it upon themselves to exclude someone contrary to their own rules. Your made-up story would be apt if it was an all-white football team refusing to admit a black football player even though the football league recently voted to integrate.

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                          • #29
                            Wow!!! Merlin, That is a HUGE LIE.. I can not even try to consider it misunderstanding what I was trying to say. I once started a post that promoted Gay rights, other then that I have not started a thread about either Gays or atheist, I have just put my two cent onto many threads started by others.. For Atheists primarily that would be you, if not exclusively you..

                            I remember commenting on a thread started by someone else that had an article about atheists who put up mean-spirited crap in the middle of religious Christmas display on some town lawn.. I will still defend that stance. Disrespect is disrespect.. No matter which side started it.. Fine by me if atheists want their own time period to have their public displays of their anti beliefs, Fine if they want their own anti-religious statues in public places.. Even ask the US government whenever they are thinking of changing the dollar bill to add an atheist symbol into it somewhere..

                            Build up pride in your group and your anti-beliefs, don't tear down others beliefs in order to build yourself up.. I think it wrong when anyone who is religious makes some statement like all atheists are immoral, or can not raise children with ethics and other unfair Prejudicial things they say about a group of people they are trying to build themselves up by tearing someone down.. But, atheists are equally wrong to try to build themselves up by tearing apart those who are religious..


                            Thanks, I have my answer.. You can not persuade anyone that atheist will not be disrespectful to the religious members if they are accepted into BSA.. That's because you have no reasons as to why eradicating God from money and statues where it offends YOUR sensibilities is any different then feeling justified to destroy the religious element from BSA if allowed in.. Anytime a religious believer does something against your group it is an injustice. Anytime your group does something against religious people it is justified,

                            Well again I re-state my stance. I will accept the inclusion of atheists some day, but only if there is added to BSA stronger rules to enforce the removal of any ("ANY") person who can not accept the differences of beliefs by others and can find away to respect them.. But, it will be a long time coming, might not be in my lifetime.. While they have an element in the group who is bent on ridding the world of religion, I don't think you will see a swelling wave of support by BSA members who are willing to sign petitions, and send in their eagle badges on behalf of this group. The lack of persuasion by people like Merlin on presenting their case as to why they would become beneficial members will keep the fight on the outside of BSA, while all you will hear on the inside of BSA is crickets chirp.. Too bad, there are many deserving atheists that are being denied a great experience due to the bad manners of a small subset of them.

                            Scouter99 -- Nice story, but if it is suppose to point out why atheists have no business being included in the BSA it misses the mark.. It would be appropriate if the atheists were wanting to join the catholic church.. BSA is not primarily a religious group, it has a religious element, but is more about camping, outdoor skills and raising youth to be upstanding citizens.. BSA does not have "Christian" or "Religious" in it's name, they do not promote religion as the top attraction when recruiting new members.

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                            • #30
                              Wow!!! Merlin, That is a HUGE LIE.

                              Here's the sort of thing I'm referring to:
                              http://old.scouter.com/Forums/viewTh...hreadID=334890

                              You started the above thread, with an article that is about atheists and has no direct link to scouting:
                              Personally, I am one of the few who think some day athiest may have a place in BSA, but the do have a slimmer chance then the homosexual issue.. They have a "never" chance with this type of attitude, because they are not respectful or reverent of other peoples beliefs..

                              So right there, you posted an article about atheists to whine about how these nasty sort of atheists aren't the right sort to be in the BSA.

                              I remember commenting on a thread started by someone else that had an article about atheists who put up mean-spirited crap in the middle of religious Christmas display on some town lawn..

                              YOU started that thread, not someone else; check the link. And it had no connection to scouting. You posted it just so you could complain about some atheists that you didn't want in the BSA, ever.

                              I will still defend that stance. Disrespect is disrespect.. No matter which side started it..

                              But you have no problem disrespecting me.

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