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  • Cub Scout Promise and Law going away

    I'm a little behind in my reading, so not sure which issue of Scouting magazine I was reading, but I just read that in 2015 the Cub Scout Promise and Law are going away and will be replaced with the Scout Oath and Law. No more learning two different oaths/laws as the boys progress in scouting from Cub to Webelos to Boy Scout. As a Webelos den leader who is trying to teach my boys the Boy Scout Oath and Law even though they are still part of the Cub Scout pack, I think this is a good thing.

  • #2
    I don't like it. I think that it is trying to force cub scouters to become boy scouts. I like have separate programs. just my opinion. AFAIK the entire program is changing soon too for cubs. I'm not sure exactly how. How often has the cub program changed before.

    Comment


    • dedkad
      dedkad commented
      Editing a comment
      I know they are starting to push Lions for kindergartners. What else have you heard they are changing? I think the Wolf level could use some improvement to make it a better transition from Tiger to Bear. Make it a little more fun and less book work.

    • mashmaster
      mashmaster commented
      Editing a comment
      I heard that it is changing to be more like boy scouts and have more outdoor requirements. Next summer they are supposed to roll out more info at Philmont according to my sources.

  • #3
    One of my Council Pros told me that he attended a National training session this summer and the Cub program is going to change completely with the Oath / Law roll-out.

    The goals of the committee rewriting the requirements are to get rid of a lot of the book work that's eithe crept into the program or been picked up by the schools and replace it with more outdoor activities. I can't find specific details.

    The official timetable I've heard is 2015-16, but I can also tell you my DE advised us not to buy any extra books this year for the Pack than we need. Our council has a separate DE position for each district just to service Cub Packs ("Quality Unit Executive") , so I wouldn't be surprised if we'll be asked to pilot the new requirements next year.

    Personally, I think going to one Oath and Law is a good thing. It removes some of the confusion with the current Promise: "Mr. Cubmaster? We brought some old clothes to our church to donate this weekend. Does that still count for us since we didn't give them to Goodwill?"

    Comment


    • #4
      dedkad ... We've tried the Lion Kindergarten program. Run away from it. Too young. To squirrelly. Lowers the maturity of the pack. As far as I'm concerned, start the program in 2nd grade again.

      Comment


      • #5
        From the Webelos leader stance I can definitely agree that scrapping the separate laws and oaths will be great. I would love to see the Lion program run in our council, this year alone I turned away 6 kindergarteners whose parents were sure their child could join and brought them to round-up despite the flyers saying grades 1-5. Sure they are rowdy and short attention spanned but if they integrated it like Tigers where it was one boy, one adult and packs could get a really strong kid oriented leader I am sure it would really improve our scouting numbers. In my experience the younger they start the longer they stay.

        As far as lowering the maturity of the pack, I agree it can create an even larger gap between the Webelos. That is why we run our Webelos program almost completely separate from our Cubs. We meet to do opening flags and announcements but then work completely independently. We run different field trips and camping activities.

        The work books are pretty stale and could use some sprucing up. A lot of the same material is covered in schools and the kids get bored. The belt loops could use some updates too. Geocaching is a perfectly acceptable belt loop for cubs as would a few other activities.

        Comment


        • Sidney Porter
          Sidney Porter commented
          Editing a comment
          I don't know much about the lion. Here is a link to a council that has it. The 2nd link has a bit more info.
          http://www.northernstarbsa.org/youth.../lioncubs.aspx
          http://www.northernstarbsa.org/Forms...202012Info.pdf

        • Sqyire21
          Sqyire21 commented
          Editing a comment
          Lions was actually a program in the 50's. (where WEBELOS actually came from... Wolves, Bears, Lions) Betting the program will need some refinement, but I agree, we should start in 2nd grade, and allow Scouts to earn a rank and move up..instead of forcing them to wait months on a program they are already done with. But I also don't like the book work and yearly repetition.

        • jblake47
          jblake47 commented
          Editing a comment
          Back in the 50's Lions were the now first year Webelos. They did have a Webelos program back then Wolf, Bears, Lions, and Webelos.

          Stosh

      • #6
        I think it's good to have one law, one promise.... but I think the little tikes will have an awfully hard time memorizing the scout law as it is now.

        Comment


        • blw2
          blw2 commented
          Editing a comment
          I have a hard time with the Scout Law too. I did as a kid as I recall, too.

          My son was so excited when we started Tiger, he was chompin at the bits bringing the book to me (wish he had 25% of that enthusiasm now)
          He had the law and the promise down cold, I think before we had the first Den mtg. I worked with him to memorize it, but probably no more than 15-20 minutes, Then I would quiz him on it for 30 seconds a pop over the coming days when we were driving or whatever....
          I think his balloon deflated by the end of the year when the leader would still break out the book and tell the boys to turn to page x, we're going to do the promise now....
          Over time, and even now in the bear den, I've noticed that he confuses them.... I'll ask him, "what's the law?", and he'll say "which one is that?"..... I say "A Cub S...." and he's off and running.

        • King Ding Dong
          King Ding Dong commented
          Editing a comment
          Why do I get this funny feeling that the reason they are changing is to benefit the Scouters who can't keep them straight ?
          Last edited by King Ding Dong; 10-17-2013, 01:53 PM.

        • CHLees3rd
          CHLees3rd commented
          Editing a comment
          When I first heard that the Promise and Law were being phased out, I was annoyed too. But the more I thought about it, the more I thought it was a good thing. The change will be better for all because it will unite the levels. Cub Scouts will say the same Oath and Law as their Den Chief. And the Den Chief will not be confused about which one to recite.

          As for the younger Scouts being able to learn the Oath and Law, I do not think it will be a promise. My wife and I lead a Girl Scout troop and have done so since my daughter was a Daisy in kindergarten. The Girl Scout Promise is short and sweet like the Cub Scout Promise, but the Girl Scout Law is much more wordy than the Boy Scout Law. We started every weekly meeting with the Promise and Law and most of the Scouts got most of it. When we offered a "I Know The Promise" and "I Know The Law" fun patches to those who could recite them from memory, each Scout learned them within a few months to earn their patches. Many, many years later we still start our weekly Girl Scout meetings with the Promise and Law.

      • #7
        I am on the fence on whether I want it to change. While it's nice that it will be the same for all scouts. I also think that it's one of the things that sets Webelos apart to know they they are graduatiing to being a boy scout.

        Comment


        • dedkad
          dedkad commented
          Editing a comment
          I wonder if they'll change the two finger salute to three fingers to be consistent also.

        • mashmaster
          mashmaster commented
          Editing a comment
          As long as it doesn't become the one finger salute :-)

        • qwazse
          qwazse commented
          Editing a comment
          Cubs keep their sign and salute,

          http://scout-wire.org/wp-content/upl...ganization.doc

          But venturers lose theirs.

      • #8
        I'm for change if it benefits the boys. If not, change for the sake of change, is pretty much a waste of time and energy and causes a lot of hard feelings.

        Stosh

        Comment


        • #9
          I agree with jblake47. Lions were in the program when I was a cub back in the 50s but in our pack, somehow I think I bypassed that and went directly to the troop. I have no good recollection of how that happened. Or else Lion was so forgettable that I, well, forgot it. Entirely possible, lol.

          Change the oath if it works for the boys. Seems to me that at that age, I had no trouble memorizing TV commercials on the first viewing. The boys are probably up to it if they want to be.

          Comment


          • dedkad
            dedkad commented
            Editing a comment
            I can still recite the McDonald's Big Mac jingle - Two all-beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions, on a sesame seed bun. It's all about priorities.

        • #10
          Originally posted by dedkad View Post
          I'm a little behind in my reading, so not sure which issue of Scouting magazine I was reading, but I just read that in 2015 the Cub Scout Promise and Law are going away and will be replaced with the Scout Oath and Law. No more learning two different oaths/laws as the boys progress in scouting from Cub to Webelos to Boy Scout. As a Webelos den leader who is trying to teach my boys the Boy Scout Oath and Law even though they are still part of the Cub Scout pack, I think this is a good thing.
          Well, when I was Tiger Cub Den leader, we had the Tiger Cub Oath and Law, then the Cub Scout Oath and Law. Years later, I became their Webelos leader, and had the Boy Scout Oath and law. The Oath is no problem. It's not much different from the Cub Scout Oath. The law, on the other hand, is much harder than the Cub Scout version. I think having a single oath and law is a good thing.

          Comment


          • #11
            I'm concerned in general with the direction of changes. It looks like a move away from uniforms. I see my Webelos are starting to look for excuses to wear Activity Shirts instead of Uniforms, I have no doubt that at the Scout level, the uniforms are a problem. However, with the Cubs, they are generally stoked to wear their uniforms, its part of the excitement of scouting, the uniforms, patches, badges, belt loops, pins, etc.

            I think that national is ignoring what makes Cub Scouting work. The problems are in the Webelos Program. The boys are disappearing in the Webelos and first year Scout years. That isn't a reflection of problems in the Cub Scout program, it's problems in Webelos which is way too much book work for the age.

            The Tiger year is a total blast. Wolf has a lot of book work and a lot of fun work... it could use more fun... but a lot of the "book work" people groan about are integrate to the Scouting program. I don't care that the schools do a nutritional component, I like that we reinforce that eating healthy is part of being a scout. Given the love of kids for all manners of junk, being able to do a craft project on healthy eating and reinforce it with the Scouts, and the same thing with chores, etc., is part of reinforcing that part of being a good scout is being a good part of the family.

            It seems that after YEARS in the Troop program, the leadership totally ignores what makes 6-9 year old boys tick. Since BSA's entire recruiting premise is on Cub Scout programs, they would do well to stop sacrificing the Pack for the troop.

            Honestly, our program is too outdoorsy if we do the various Camporees, etc., it terrified suburbanites, and at this age, the families need to go. We need to focus on the crafts/values with the Cub Programs, focus on independent advancement with Webelos, and revisiting the lower Scout ranks so we stop losing the boys in 5-7th grade.

            The problem isn't the 2nd/3rd grade levels, it's the 4th-7th grade levels with the drop off, focus there.

            Comment


            • King Ding Dong
              King Ding Dong commented
              Editing a comment
              While I agree, Webelos is to much book work and low on adventure, where do you see the problem in the lower Scout ranks ? I see very little book work. Sure there is some like reading about plants and the identifying them or reading about first aid and then demonstrating what you learned.

              Is the problem with the program or with all the other opportunities available. In my world the biggest competitor is hyper competitive sports. It's all about teams, leagues, tournaments and trophies, not about having fun playing a game.

            • Pack18Alex
              Pack18Alex commented
              Editing a comment
              I don't... The Tiger->Wolf->Bear transitions are fine. Apparently between Bear->Webelos->Webelos 2->Scout there is a TON of drop off.

              But I have lots of Cub families that simply will not camp. The families do not want to. The boys might try it in Den camping down the road. But pushing the program to be more outdoors in the cub level is a recipe for dropping out.

          • #12
            The Idea behind one Scout Oath and LAW... All Scouting Units are Boy Scouts of America. Why spend Years Learning an Oath and then Having to learn a New one when you Transition..
            even Venture is Going to Boy scout Oath and Law.

            The Majority of Scouter and Former Scouters can Recite the Boy scout Oath and Boy Scout Law but Very Few can still recite the Cub Scout or Venture Crew Oath?

            Quit trying to make Cub Scouts and Venture Crews a separate Organization. They are Not Step Children.

            A Leader will adapt the Program to the Boys and still stay within the BSA Rules and Regs.
            Sure 7 year Olds may have difficulty saying the Oath and Law Perfect every time. But I suspect by the Time the say it several years they will Know It and Remember it.

            One of the biggest Problem in Cub Scouting is changing Leadership every time you turn around. Yes I did it also..I transitioned with Boys in my Tiger Den to Wolf..Leaving No Tiger Cub Den Leaders.

            Next Problem is not allowing the Boys to Participate in Activities they want...Boys quit because scouting is not fun for them anymore. Telling a Boy, who may be part of a Climbing Club already,
            they can't climb more than 6 feet off the ground will cause them to drop out.
            Or the Boy Who Plays Local Pee Wee Football already they can't receive a Football Badge because they are not playing "Flag Football" instead causes problems.
            BSA is "Regulating" itself into trouble

            Comment


            • mashmaster
              mashmaster commented
              Editing a comment
              The interesting thing is that by far, Cub Scouts are the dominant population of scouts, so technically the rest of the programs should adopt their program, right? :-) No I don't think boy scouts should become more cub like. But they are hardly step children.

            • Pack18Alex
              Pack18Alex commented
              Editing a comment
              The vast majority of Scouts (and Scouters) cannot recite the Boy Scout Oath/Law, because they never learned either. The majority of the people in BSA are Cub Scouts and Cub Scouters. Given the turn over rate in Cubs, I'd say that the VAST majority of Scouters are Cub Scouters...

              The problem is NOt the Cub Problem. The problem is the Webelos->Scout Transition.

          • #13
            I wonder what are the number of registered Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, Venture Scouts?
            Last edited by jpstodwftexas; 10-19-2013, 06:40 PM. Reason: typing error, spelling

            Comment


            • qwazse
              qwazse commented
              Editing a comment
              Wonder no more: http://www.scouting.org/About/FactSh...rinReview.aspx


              Note that there are 0 venture scouts , only 210k venturers. .

            • mashmaster
              mashmaster commented
              Editing a comment
              What about Sea Scouts? I don't see them listed.

            • qwazse
              qwazse commented
              Editing a comment
              Sea scouts are part of the venturing program.
              Also, this stat doesn't count for multiple registrations. For example, half my crew and I are primarily registered through our troop.

          • #14
            Interesting... was a Cub scout and A Cub Scout Leader...I can not recite the Cub Scout oath and Law from Memory...However even after being away from Scouting Since 1986 I can still recite the Boy Scout Oath and Law from Heart.
            Last edited by jpstodwftexas; 10-20-2013, 02:21 AM.

            Comment


            • #15
              Thanks for the Link qwazse
              Tiger Cub Scouts 212,677 -4.63%
              Cub Scouts 726,775 -2.76%
              Webelos Scouts 589,221 -3.84%
              Total Cub Scout-Age 1,528,673 -3.44%
              Boy Scouts 848,236 -0.01%
              Varsity Scouts 62,432 1.87%
              Total Boy Scout-Age 910,668 0.12%
              Total Venturers 219,453 -5.05%
              Total Explorers 116,589 3.28%
              Total Youth 2,775,383
              So while It seems Cub Scouts make up the Largest Membership they suffered drops in Membership, Boy Scouts the Least and The Only Group to Increase is Varsity and Explorer?

              Comment


              • qwazse
                qwazse commented
                Editing a comment
                Can't speak about Varsity (never met a team).
                Explorers had been undersold for years. More than half became venturers. (When son #1Was a tiger, it was explained to me that venturing was the new Explorers. Nothing disavowed me of that notion until someone from the Explorers division made a presentation at roundtable.) They are making a comeback.
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