Perhaps Wayne has been unclear. I believe based on what he has posted here and a PM I received from him (in response to one I sent) is that no one runs through the hydrolic.
He wrote, "The hazard is very easily avoided I row my boat around 4 times a day without the help of my customers. I found out tonight that they ran it on the first trip but only hit the right side which kicks to the right out of the hole".
I believe this guy knows whereof he speaks and I am disturbed that some on this forum have attacked his credibility. Maybe in the chaos he did not get the details right. That happens in that kind of situation. He may never have seen the victim and assumed it was a scout rather than a leader. There were others pulled from the water and he was probably not in a position to see or know everything.
What he does know is that stretch of river and that no one should have been on that side of the river in those conditions. He knows that it has happened before with other scout groups. What he knows should give us pause. We should thank him rather than circle the wagons and lash out at someone who dares to suggest that BSA may have a problem with whitewater safety.
Finally, I find it surprising that some assume the accuracy of news reports and discount an eye-witness. Remember, he told us about this hours before it was anywhere in the online news.
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If a professional outdoor guide advises me about a danger, I would consider it absolute reckless negligence not to heed this good advice. Rather then question the credentials why isnt this forum wringing every bit of wisdom and advice out of this valuable resource.
There are way, way too many Scouters who think of themselves as some kind of Daniel Boone. The reality is that a vast majority of Scouters are weekend outdoor enthusiasts. Jeez Ive been around a bit and until this forum I never even heard of the word hydrolic. Wayne, thanks for the information and please chime in from time to time with advice and observations
- Dec 2000
The reality is, no one knows who he is, if he even is a river guide of just a Troll. He came on here and made his first post, loudly criticizing scout leaders, and posted grossly inaccurate information. How should we take him? When challanged, he sent nasty PM's, and never really corrected his mistakes.
I for one question his validity and asked him in a PM who he worked for to see if he was a real guide, so far no answer.
If he isn't who he says he is and if he wasn't there, how did he know about this incident before the news of this incident went up on any website? I was initially skeptical and thought that it might be a hoax but my skepticism vanished when the news hit the web even though he had some of his details wrong (not surprising or unusual in such a situation). I believe him.
You on the other hand accused him of being "way oout of bounds here and he didn't even have his fact close to being correct" in your very first post on the thread. Why this response? He touched a nerve perhaps? I am not surprised that you may have taken offense to whatever he said in his PM after that.
Ive been witness to Charter Captains here on the Great Lakes who would rather have you hit the dock rather then their deck when it comes to showing some respect and humility about thinking that you know their business. Guides work long hours, weekends and holidays and it can be intense work. If Waynes PM came off as a little rough Im sure its cause hes seen a lot of second guessers. Hopefully some of them survived.
- May 2009
Forum readers can pickup more from Wayne on a new link:
Another thread concerning Whitewater can be read at:
BSA appears to be going into the whitewater business as plans progress on National Scouting Center in WV.
"CHARLESTON, W.Va. -- The Boy Scouts of America will buy a 10,600-acre site in Fayette County where the organization plans to build a "high-adventure base" beside the New River Gorge National River park, scout leaders said Monday."
I did not criticize all leaders just the ones that float into a class 6 hazard with little kids. http://madriverguidewaynephillips.blogspot.com/
I took some video of the hole today and will post tommorow. Thanks to the few that realize what my point is! wayne phillips of mad river boat trips