scoutmaster refused to sign off on conference

[scoutingfamily]

We have a scoutmaster who has refused to sign off on the scoutmaster conference for life. This scoutmaster has a few chosen scouts that he is buddies with and have for the most part made the life of the other scouts miserable. He took this scout into a little room with 2 other adults (not scoutmasters, but committee memebers) and talked to this kid for about 45 minutes. He told him he was not going to "pass" him because he did not beleive he had enough leadership. The scout is 13 and was a patrol quartermaster for Jambo 2005 and a Den cheif for 6 months before that.

[evmori]

Where did the information you posted come from?

 

Not enough leadership? Interesting. Was the 6 months this Scout was a den chief after he earned his Star rank? If so, the leadership requirement has been met.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

 

 

[madkins007]

scoutingfamily...

 

This will be a difficult post to deal with. You don't really ask a question, nor provide much info beyond that failed SMC and the comment about Den Chief and QM.

 

We can only ASSUME that the PORs were held as a Star Scout and that the SM was somehow dissatisfied with is service in these roles.

 

Unfortunately I have had to deny a Scout rank for what I considered poor performance in a POR- after some other counseling and trying to get the boy trained, etc. I also have to say that I am a bit surprised whenever I see a Life candidate that has not held something like Patrol Leader, etc.

 

If you really think that something should be done, you really ought to talk to the troop committee chair about the situation, or if they are not going ot help, trying the COR.

[scoutingfamily]

The den chief position was held after he reached his star rank back in May of 2004. He had run for patrol leader but the SM said that only the youngest scouts were to be elected to positions. It didn't seem to matter that this scout was even there. The problem is that some of the adults who knew that the SM had taken the scout down into a little room in the basement of the church din't seem to think anything was wrong and even tried to console the scout after he came up crying! The committee chair has 2 scouts in the troop who have displine problems which the SM tends to overlook, so the committee chair isn't going to rock any boat to intercede. The troop just back back from Philmont and 2 of the scouts put charcole grafitti on the thooth of time! One of them is still the SPL, but he is also one of the buddies. Should we go to council?

[Hunt]

I think you should go to another troop. I suspect that whether you are in the right, or the SM is in the right, that you will never achieve happiness in this unit. Switch to another one right away.

[Bob White]

Anyone remember our talk about anchors?

 

The Scoutmaster is is an ego-trip feeling pretty powerful because he can show a child he is in charge. BIG DEAL I Hope he's proud of HIMSELF, no one else is.

 

1) The Scoutmaster conference is not a pass/fail requirement. It is a "happened or didn't happen" requirement. I'd have to say if it went on for 45 minutes...it happened.

 

2) the SM is disregarding a number of BSA controlled advancment policies and procedures that he has no right to do.

 

Consider a new unit that does not have an idiot in a leadership position. OR find this idiot a village of his own to go to so that the troop can get a scoutmaster instead.

 

I am very sorry that your son is going through this. Any boy deserves better than what you son has had happen.

 

I hope your son will stay in scouting but he needs to get to a troop that actual has a scouting program.

 

I hope he can do that.

BW

[evmori]

Gotta agree with Hunt. Sounds like you are fighting a losing battle & the real loser is the Scout. Find another Troop.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Eagle447]

Please read responses to the thread "Perhaps he should throw in the towel"

[Eamonn]

Sounds to me like Mr. Scoutmaster is no Scout.

Dump him.

Find a another Troop.

If you know the number of your Unit or District Commissioner, I would call him or her and report the facts.

Eamonn.

[acco40]

I'll act as the court supplied defense attorney for the SM. I think he needs one after being so beat up so far. Let's look at some of the requirements for Life:

 

1) Be active in your troop or patrol for at least 6 months as a Star Scout.

 

2) Demonstrate Scout spirit by living the Scout Oath (Promise) and Scout Law in your everyday life.

 

3)Earn five more merit badges (so that you have 11 in all), including any three more from the required list for Eagle.

The required list for Eagle has 15 merit badges in 12 categories. Any of the 15 may be used for this requirement.

 

4) While a Star Scout, take part in service projects totaling at least 6 hours of work. These projects must be approved by your Scoutmaster.

 

5) While a Star Scout, serve actively for 6 months in one or more of the troop positions of responsibility listed in requirement 5 for Star Scout (or carry out a Scoutmaster-assigned leadership project to help the troop).

 

6) Take part in a Scoutmaster conference.

 

7) Complete your board of review.

 

Let's look at these reqs one by one. For number one, remember, "active" relates to his patrol or troop. (As an aside, I'd like the national council to amend this req to patrol AND troop). The Jamboree QM position has no influence on his completion of a rank requirement. Neither should a position or involvement in OA. These are not troop or patrol activities. The state of his "activeness" (a much discussed topic on this forum) should not be a surprise to the Scout - the SM determines active but should communicate this to the Scout on a timely basis. The problem I've had as a SM is it is much harder to communicate to Scouts who don't show up to meetings and outings!

 

Requirement #2 is determined by the SM too. But, I'll add the following caveat (which applies to #1 too) that some Scouts are very honest and will tell you that they feel that they have not met #1 or #2 themselves. The problems I've had is when the Scout will say to me during a conference that he really doesn't feel he has met one of these reqs but then after talking with his parents, changes his mind!

 

Reqs #3 & #4 should be self explanatory.

 

Req #5 is what the SM in question should have addressed more clearly. If the boy was not providing proper leadership then the boy should have been removed from his POR. Better yet, he should have been mentored & coached and given detailed expectations and metrics with which to measure his performance in his POR. As a den chief, the SPL, ASPL, SM, Den Leader and Cubmaster should all have been involved in this process.

 

Now, about req#6, what is in question here? BW is correct about he SM conference - it is not pass fail, it is "take part." However, I've had boys request a SM conference and I'll give them one. During the course of the conference, it was mutually decided by the Scout and by me (the SM) that some other requirement for that rank was not met. If so, I don't sign off on the SM conference requirement in the Scout's book. I could and maybe I should but right now I don't. I could easily be persuaded to sign-off but even if I did, I would request another SM conference after the boys completes his remaining req(s) and before the boys went to his board of review. By not signing off, it is a reminder to the Scout that he should have another conference before his BOR.

 

Req. #7 is out of the SM's hands.

 

 

[Bob White]

#1 This been discussed frequently on this board. There are as usual two schools of thought. One where leaders feel the need to impose quotas, one where it is believed leaders should communicate with individual scouts and help them to make and achieve personal goals.

 

#2 NOWHERE does the BSA program say that this is determined by the scoutmaster IN FACT the Boy Scout Handbook says that the BEST person to judge this is the boy himself.

 

#5 The adult leaders job is to TRAIN junior leaders and help them to learn and practice leadership skills not remove them from office.

 

#6 If the scout has a SM conference then he has completed that requirement. If it is determined that another requirement was not completed then THAT is the one he is recycled on, not the requirement that is done.

 

#7 This is not out of the SM hands. The SM simply isn't a participant DURING the BOR that doesn't mean he or she cannot inform the board of compliments or concerns regarding the scouts developmet prior to the bor beginning.

 

 

Why would adults want to prove that they have power over other peoples children?

 

Scoutmaster does not mean that you are a master of Scouts.

[FScouter]

Most Scoutmasters I know wait until all other requirements are completed before holding the SM conference. If that is the case here, the conference is not the place to go back and reject requirements previously signed off.

 

If the boy has waited for the conference to get all the other requirements signed off, then perhaps it is other uncompleted requirements that are not being signed.

 

In any case, a 45 minute meeting with the SM seems like about 30 minutes too much.

[evmori]

Yeah we don't agree on what "active in your Troop or Patrol" is. But you can't be "active in you Troop or Patrol" if you aren't there.

 

I still think the thing to do here is find another Troop! Not showing "enough" leadership is just an excuse & I'd bet this SM will come up with a bunch more of them.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Venividi]

#2 (Scout Spirit) NOWHERE does the BSA program say that this is determined by the scoutmaster IN FACT the Boy Scout Handbook says that the BEST person to judge this is the boy himself.

 

Aye - there's the rub. A scout that sets low standards for himself, but that other scouts do not enjoy having around because they don't trust him, or because he disappears every time that he is on the duty roster for cleanup, etc., needs guidance in adjusting his standards.

 

It is not my understanding that a scout is eligible to sign off on his own completion of any other requirement, so I would find it difficult to make the leap that he should sign off on his own scout spirit requirement; though that may not be what you were trying to imply. I do agree that a scout should hold himself to high standards, and that most scouts (but not all) will expect a lot from themselves.

 

I don't have a book in front of me, and my recollection is often faulty, but I thought that the SM did have a say in whom is eligible to sign off on requirements. In our troop, sign off on scout skills was delegated to any first class scout. I know of others where it is delegated to the patrol leader.

 

You have me intrigued. I will need to pull out my book tonight.

[acco40]

Bob, don't want to get into a pissing contest with you but let me address your statements (in italics).

 

1 This been discussed frequently on this board. There are as usual two schools of thought. One where leaders feel the need to impose quotas, one where it is believed leaders should communicate with individual scouts and help them to make and achieve personal goals.

Fair enough. But what to do if after communicating and formulating with individual Scout his personal goals - and then he doesn't meet them - he doesn't meet the requirement. It isn't the end of the world. Scouts should be allowed to fail and to try again. In a controlled and safe environment, failure can be a wonderful tool. Let me digress a bit. A few years ago our troop did some "rock" wall climbing at a local REI store. Two brothers did not show up for the meeting. Later, their mother told me she (not them) did not want them to participate because she felt they may not be able to climb to the top and didn't want them to experience that "failure." (Not all Scouts who participated climbed to the top). Now, I ask, is it better to experience failure at 14 or experience for the first time at 22 or 23 years of age? Boys need to learn how to deal with failure. Unfortunately, many do not until they are way past 18.

 

#2 NOWHERE does the BSA program say that this is determined by the scoutmaster IN FACT the Boy Scout Handbook says that the BEST person to judge this is the boy himself.

Yes, but NOWHERE does it say that the Scout signs off his own reqs. The SM Handbook states that his LEADER determines if a req is met (it doesn't define leader as SM or PL or SA or ASPL or Troop Guide or Instructor or ...). The boy himself may be the judge but the leader formalizes the judgment.

 

#5 The adult leaders job is to TRAIN junior leaders and help them to learn and practice leadership skills not remove them from office.

I partially agree. The adult leaders' job is to train the youth leaders. But, IMO, part of the training is instilling respect for the position and assuming the responsibility that if the position is not being filled in a satisfactory way, corrections, up to and including removal may be employed.

 

#6 If the scout has a SM conference then he has completed that requirement. If it is determined that another requirement was not completed then THAT is the one he is recycled on, not the requirement that is done.

I agree 100%.

 

#7 This is not out of the SM hands. The SM simply isn't a participant DURING the BOR that doesn't mean he or she cannot inform the board of compliments or concerns regarding the scouts development prior to the bor beginning.

We are in agreement but expressing it differently. We both agree that formally, the SM does not participate in a BOR. Yes, the SM (or anyone else) may inform the board in any way they see fit.