Merit Badges-camping

[scouterfly]

Several questions on camping MB: One pertains to the "On any of these 20 nights, do two of the following: 1-Hike up a mountain gaining 2000 vertical feet; 2-Backpack for at least 4 miles; 3- Take a bike trip of at least 15 miles or four hours; 4- Plan and carry out a float trip of four hours; 5- Rappel 30 feet or more

 

Do you need to pack and carry all your camping gear while on the float trip, the bike trip or hike or rapelling? Or can you base camp, set up gear and go on a side trip for the named activities?

 

Here's why I ask the question: Troop goes on a campout, spends night at point A-next day they drive to point B and go canoeing for the entire day and drive back to point A. MBC does not count this as one of the items since they did not carry gear and camp from the canoe.

BTW, troop did same canoe trip one year prior and camped out of canoe, but since blue card was not dated yet, that trip doesn't count. How can I convince MBC/SM that either or both of these trips satisfied the requirement, or am I wrong in my thinking. If you follow his logic then you need to rappel with all your camping gear, or bike with all your camping gear which sounds a little far fetched.

 

Does the troop leader ultimately have the last say as to whether a MB is completed since he signs completed blue cards, so even if the camping MB counselor allows nights of camping to count from date joined, the troop leader will override this if he knows that the scout could not have done the 20 nights since the blue card was issued.

 

Confused

 

 

[KoreaScouter]

The unit leader's "last say" is when he designates a counselor for the Scout(s) who want to earn that MB. Once that's done, the unit leader has no say regarding whether or not the Scout has completed the requirements, or how the counselor interprets the requirements -- that's between the Scout and the counselor. You should know ahead of time how the counselor approaches his job, and how he's likely to deal with the Scouts he comes in contact with.

 

KS

[Hunt]

These questions have been asked before, but you raise a number of them in one place. I believe the following to be the answers, based on wisdom dispensed by others here:

1. There is nothing in the requirements that suggests the activities have to be done while carrying gear. This is the Camping merit badge, not the Backpacking merit badge. Requiring that gear be carried is adding to the requirement--note the distinction between "hike" and "backpack" in the requirements.

2. There is nothing in the requirements that suggests all the camping experiences must be done after the blue card is signed. Some take that position, but the majority view here (I think) is that camping done since joining Boy Scouts should count.

3. Just to throw this in, there is nothing in the requirements to suggest that camping done outside of Scouting doesn't count, as long as the boy pitches his own tent or sleeps under the stars.

4. Finally, the MBC is the one who determines if the badge has been earned--not the troop leader. If the blue card is signed off by an approved MBC, the badge is earned. There was a lengthy discussion here about whether a troop leader could refuse to sign a blue card if he knew the badge wasn't really earned, but we were never talking about a situation like this, where the troop leader might want to overrule an interpretation made by the MBC. On the other hand, if you can't convince the MBC, about the only thing you can do is find another MBC who agrees with your interpretation.

Note: the requirements say you can use a week of long-term camp, and that the requirement to pitch your own tent does not apply to long-term camp. Most people here (I think) have interpreted that to allow a boy to count Scout Camp even if they sleep in cabins or shelters. My only question is if a "week" of long-term camp can be counted, and Scout Camp lasts six nights, can you count one night from the next summer's camp?

[EagleInKY]

IMHO, you should be able to use camping experiences since joining scouting. Most MBCs will do the same. If that were not the case, we should give every scout a blue card and a Camping MBC when they join scouts. It would just take them a few years to get the work done!

 

The unit leader can't overrule the MBC. But, if you have an MBC that is refusing to consider their previous camping experience, there is nothing (that I know of) to prevent you from redirecting the boy to a new MBC - one that would recognize those experiences.

[scouterfly]

Our camping MBC is the SM, so it is hard to get around. Even if you went outside the troop to another MBC, the MB is not given till reviewed by the ASM or SM and then the blue card is signed by the unit leader. My son went to a camp last spring (run by our district advancement chairman) where he completed several MB's and has many partials, but until he shows the SM that he did everything, he has still not gotten the MB. I even sat down with my son and reviewed everything and what I was not satisfied that he did, I asked him to do it again. There were two in the safety/fire safety that I felt were not complete since you had to do a home survey. The survey was done at the place of the MB clinic, and I didn't think that was right. I guess I need something concrete to show to the troop committee chair who can then get this straight. What do you think I need to do to get the leadership on the right path with regards to the "correct" MB procedure/process?

[NJCubScouter]

Hunt says:

 

2. There is nothing in the requirements that suggests all the camping experiences must be done after the blue card is signed. Some take that position, but the majority view here (I think) is that camping done since joining Boy Scouts should count.

 

In our troop a boy is entitled to use all days of camping (as defined in the requirement) since joining, as indicated in the Troopmaster records (which are almost accurate.) The date the blue card was signed is irrelevant. I am sure that is what the requirement means, though perhaps it should be clarified.

 

3. Just to throw this in, there is nothing in the requirements to suggest that camping done outside of Scouting doesn't count, as long as the boy pitches his own tent or sleeps under the stars.

 

I think you are correct on this, also though I think an issue could arise regarding the "long-term camp" aspect, about which more is written below. If the "long-term camp" is not under BSA auspices, could that include a family trip in which the boy is sleeping in an RV? (I don't think it should.) Does there have to be some "program" involved in the camping, as there is at a BSA summer camp? I think there are non-BSA camping experiences that should count, but I am not sure where you draw the line. The closer the experience is to a week at BSA summer camp, the greater chance it should "count," in my opinion.

 

Note: the requirements say you can use a week of long-term camp, and that the requirement to pitch your own tent does not apply to long-term camp. Most people here (I think) have interpreted that to allow a boy to count Scout Camp even if they sleep in cabins or shelters.

 

I think that's right, in fact, I don't know how else one could reasonably interpret it. The requirement says "Sleep each night under the sky or in a tent you have pitched (long-term camp excluded.)" The exception in parentheses applies to the entire sentence that precedes it, and that sentence is the only one in the requirement that restricts what kind of camping trips "count." If it is long-term camp, it doesn't matter what the sleeping accommodations are (which is why, as I wrote above, there does need to be some reasonable interpretation of what "camping" is, so somewhat cannot decide that a week with the family at Days Inn counts as "camping.") I think the BSA makes this exception because generally at most summer camps (or at least every one I've been to) the boys sleep either in constructed shelters or in tents that have been set up by the staff, not by the campers.

 

My only question is if a "week" of long-term camp can be counted, and Scout Camp lasts six nights, can you count one night from the next summer's camp?

 

Well, when I was counting up my son's nights of camping recently, I only counted the six nights he spent at summer camp the first year, and none of the six nights the second year, toward the Camping merit badge. (Why I am doing the counting instead of him is a legitimate question, but beyond the subject of this thread. Maybe there is a thread somewhere on "why it's so hard sometimes to let go and make your 12-year-old take responsibility for his own advancement.") I guess I assumed that "week" meant "consecutive days in a week" regardless of whether that meant six "days and nights" or seven. (For some reason I thought that the requirement itself limited the number of nights in summer camp to count toward Camping MB to be either 5 or 6, but now I see that is not actually in the requirement; I don't know where I got it from.)

 

The fact is that there is nothing in the language of the requirement that prevents a counselor from interpreting a "week" to mean "seven days" regardless of whether those days are divided between two years of summer camp. On the other hand, I'd hope that by the time a boy has been to 2 summer camps, he has either exceeded or is very close to also having 14 nights of weekend camping anyway. (I realize this might be an issue in troops that generally stay over only one night per camping trip; ours generally does 2-nighters, which allows the boys to rack up 14 nights pretty quickly. In the other direction, in my part of the country, winter camping trips are often (though not always) cabin camping, and those don't count.)

[EagleInKY]

What do you think I need to do to get the leadership on the right path with regards to the "correct" MB procedure/process?

There's a fine line between reasonable audit procedures and "absolute dominion" over the MB process.  I'm a SM, and I believe I should have a certain amount of flexibility in this area.  For example, if a young man comes back from camp or a MB day and says "the counselor said we didn't need to do requirements 5 & 6, talking about them was good enough", then I have a problem.  Usually, it's too late to go back to the camp or MB day, since it's after the fact.  What I normally do is put it back on the scout.  I'll ask them if they believe this is an example of living by the Scout Oath & Law.  Most scouts will agree that they haven't truly completed the work.  We'll assign them a new counselor to finish the requirements that they did not meet.

That said, I never cross the line into whether I believe the work was of the quality required for the badge.  Nor do I get into interpretations of the requirement.  I only feel necessary to intervene if there is a clearcut situation of a requirement being ignored or changed.

Now, for your specific question.  I believe you need to work with your SMs and Troop Committee to get trained on advancement procedures.  Instead of taking the "you're doing it wrong route", take the approach of teaching the scout way, and then figuring out where your procedures don't match. 

I know this will spark some controversy, in that some do not agree with the approach we use.  But, I personally believe it is the best balance between giving total responsibility over to an MBC or having the SM have total authority.

[NWScouter]

The blue card comes in three parts, one to be turned into the council with the advancement report, one to be retained by the scout as record, and the last to be kept by the MBC for his records. There are two places for the SM to sign, on the first part to certify the Scout is really a scout and on the scouts portion to acknowledge that SM has received the completed application.

 

I have heard that SMs have restricted whom a scout goes for a merit badge. It is the responsibility of the SM to give a list of MBC that he knows to be on the MBC list and allow the scout to make his choice from all available MBC.

If a SM feels that a MBC is not doing his/her job, then the SM needs to bring it up to the district advancement chair who then can take action if warranted. Of course any YP issues should go straight to the Scout Executive.