HELP HELP URGENT

[2eagles 10]

This is a long story so for brevity sake I will list major points --

Group of 5 adults started a Troop with definitive mission: Boy Lead, Best for Boys, Family allowed but in its own patrol (they learn skills too and camp away from boys), working with boys who have sports, band ect.., Treating the boys like young men.

 

It was at times very chaotic as it will be will 11 yr old boys learning to lead - our committee wasn't strong because of our small size but they did work their tails off. We Made sure we provided program.

 

Now there is an unbelievable amount of in fighting in the troop (by adults) -- all of the original founding adults and youth (2 are Eagles, 1 is finishing his Eagle, 2 are putting projects together)have essentially been run off.

 

The current Scoutmaster, whose talent was administrative, (this is why the change in leadership to grow committee and move to next step) appears to be running the program for his boys only and is stretched with several other duties in Scouting. WB staff but doesn't really get it, well, he gets the MBA mentality.

 

We have been contacted by several boys who want to start a Venture Crew and want us to function as advisors. Plus, contacted by parents of boys who are 1 year out of being 14 about a Venture Crew.

 

There is a committee meeting tonight -- any suggestions on how to handle this mess.

 

Oh, we are in process of starting a venture crew (it is about the boys).

 

Really, at wits end - adults and their agendas drive me crazy.

[Eagledad 2781]

Lets fill in some blanks:

 

What is your part in this?

How many scouts in the Troop?

How many of the scouts want the Venture and why?

Why do you think the venture is an issue?

What are the agenda items of the committe meeting?

Who is the alpha leader, by that I mean who is the one person that will get their way with the the adults?

Finally, I understand the goals you listed, but is there any one vision or mission that all the adults could quote?

 

Barry

[2eagles 10]

We are founders and former Scoutmaster and Asst. Scoutmaster

Total of 24 scouts in Troop

6 older Scouts want to venture, 3 reasons: one. they want to camp and be outdoors plus explore high adven. opportunities two. They want to get back to boy lead (they believe {and it has been proved over and over} that the current adult leadership will not listen to them. three. They feel the new leadership goes against scout values

Not sure I understand the Venture is an issue question

The committee agenda is classic out of business school format -- the content at committee will be most likely weak

Finally, the current Alpha is Scoutmaster (this is only because he has not be challanged) - (did try talking privately - he doesn't get it) We don't believe a battle would accomplish much except division due to past history

There is a mission with goals that has been in the parent handbook -- however it has been ignored by the current leadership (most of the ignoring has been subversive and not up front) This is why it has quietly cummulated to a mess

[Eagledad 2781]

I asked the Venture question because I dont understand why you brought it up.

 

I assume that when the scouts went to Venture, they left the troop?

 

What I meant with the committee agenda was trying to learn the purpose of the meeting. It sounds like it is just a monthly meeting, not a special meeting to deal with the problems.

 

Im still trying to see the problem that you see. You dont like the way the Scoutmaster is leading the program, but what are the concerns? Are a lot of scouts leaving the troop and is recruiting a problem?

 

Are they very many other adults who see these problems or is it mainly you?

 

OK, looking at the few facts that you give me, I will only assume that your perspective is correct. We dont have two sides here, so this is risky. But here is what I do when I help units with these same problems.

 

First, you need to call the CC and get put on the agenda for this specific topic. Call it what you want, concerns of the program, concerns of adults, whatever you want, but you dont want to just pop up between officer reports and next months fund raiser with a loaded cannon that may bring the meeting to a screeching halt. Being put on the agenda item shows that you have been thinking about this.

 

Next, you need to list your items of concern and run them through your mind so that you can explain yourself clearly. Trust me that if you dont, the stuttering and confusion of looking for your words makes you come off looking angry. It shouldnt take you more than five minutes to fully list your concerns. If you want to mention names, thats OK, but generally that has folks on the defense, which complicates meetings. It works better if you can speak of the problems of the group. We are failing because of this and WE are not reaching our goals because.

 

Make sure you begin your talk with the One Mission that the adults are supposed to be driving toward. Most units dont even have a mission, but since you do, the next step is identify what the adults are NOT doing toward the mission. Your talk should have two small list: The first is the areas of the program you see struggling. The second is a list of reasons causing the problems. Be brief and clear. You dont want to overwhelm the committee, just present the situation quickly and simple. Let questions give you openings to explain your concerns in more detail. Dont put people on the defense if you can because you dont want to waste everyones time debating, arguing and defending yourself. The objective of your talk is to alert everyone to the problems and the repercussions if they dont change.

 

Finally, you need to have a plan of action in your back pocket. Something simple and something understandable.

 

Finally, you need to understand most folks do not want to be combative, AND, and this is very important, Most people resist change. Most folks would rather take the easier route even if it isnt the better program if the change looks hard. So you need to be persuasive and be willing to be the strong leader to lead the changes. If you go in the meeting looking for a new leader, likely nothing will happen. If you dont think yourself strong enough to be the leader of change, then find a strong leader who agrees with you and be the strong voice for that leader. But dont go in looking for change without any ideas for change and without any passion. You need a new Alpha leader.

 

Be calm, but firm. Dont ever raise your voice and dont get in a debate. Not in this meeting anyway. Worst case scenario is suggest leading another meeting to sort this out, but dont let the meeting end with nothing changing.

 

Like I said, this is all base from our perspective.

 

Good Luck

 

Barry

 

[Kudu 186]

One determined indoor adult can kill an entire Troop, especially if a majority of the Committee is impressed with "expert certification" like Wood Badge or (far worse) adult Eagle Scout.

 

I'm not sure what you are looking for: interpersonal experiences, or practical Venturing Crew/Venture Patrol pointers.

 

2eagles writes:

 

"We don't believe a battle would accomplish much except division due to past history"

 

"We have been contacted by several boys who want to start a Venture Crew and want us to function as advisors."

 

So you want to do an end-run around a confrontation by forming a Venturing Crew?

 

2eagles writes:

 

"Plus, contacted by parents of boys who are 1 year out of being 14 about a Venture Crew."

 

A Venture PATROL can include Scouts age 13-17. Would this work? See:

 

http://www.usscouts.org/usscouts/advance/docs/VVVtable.asp

 

I have used ad hoc Venture-type Patrols to change Troop culture. All it takes is a minimum two Scouts and two adults Rather than concentrating on distance or the word "backpacking," I build on some goal that can not be reached by driving, like a short "weekend hike" to a fishing spot "where the fish have never seen a hook before."

 

Kudu

[Beavah 205]

Yah, hmmm...

 

I think yeh have to be prepared to think of yourself as one of those adults with an agenda, 2eagles. All of us are, but especially former Scoutmasters who are still in the same unit. Havin' the old SM around is a real challenge, especially the founder who had the initial vision, eh? You've got big feet. Easy to step on somethin' unintentionally.

 

Lots of times after a dynamic founder a unit needs an administrative type to consolidate gains, organize stuff, and set the ground for the future. Before yeh critique the current SM too hard for not being you in terms of vision and action, stop and consider what his/her contributions have been that you didn't do. There's real merit to administration sometimes. Havin' those ways of doing things put in place allows a troop to grow to the next step.

 

Now, it might be that sometime soon it's time to switch back to a more dynamic leader, eh? But until that happens, I think yeh want to be pretty good about supportin' the Scoutmaster. The older boys who joined with you as leader and grew up with that experience are always goin' to be loyal. No other SM will ever measure up in their eyes, but especially not if they think you don't support him. But what's the lesson you want to teach those lads, eh? I'd humbly suggest that it's loyalty to the troop, not loyalty to you as an individual. An administrative-type leader often leaves space for boy leaders to step into the light.

 

All of us have strengths and weaknesses, eh? A scout is kind, he looks at both youth and adults to find their strengths without calling too much attention to their weaknesses.

 

Now, if yeh do start a crew, given your feelings about this matter, I'd encourage yeh to think about holdin' the crew advisor job for a long time. Yeh care a lot, and you feel real ownership. Do everyone a favor and don't pass the reins on until you're really willing to step away.

 

Beavah

 

[2eagles 10]

Ventures is Brand new at the request of older youth in troop - they do not want to have venture patrol because of the adult leadership

 

The problem is two fold - 1. We are being called by (8 parents/and scouts) about the change in the troop structure from boy to adult -- ie lack of program, boys unhappy (we have lost 3 to other troops), scoutmaster not listening, loss of the mover and shakers (6 very active couples) of the committee due to scoutmaster.

The reason we are being called is because we are founders, the 1st Scoutmaster and Asst. Scoutmaster and we ran a boy lead troop. Therefore the assumption is we can fix it --

2. Is it our problem anymore or rather what is the right thing to do - the commissioner has all but thrown up his hands

 

The Venture issue is fairly new (which was not intended as a cog in the wheel)but may cause one -- We now (in the last 5 days) are starting a crew at the request of a Charter Organization and 6 boys.

 

This has not been a rapid change (the troop situation) but a slow one -- sort of like water dripping on a rock

 

To answer some of Eagledads questions:

These events have not had a direct impact on our sons, they have tried to work around issues -- and worked the program where they could

No, we are not the ones who saw the problem as one for the whole troop-- we knew our boys were frustrated with troop situation but they were also active with other scouts and troops

This was suppose to be a special meeting, however, due to the Scoutmaster shuffling committee positions and removing anyone who does not just fall into to his line, it is a regular meeting.

Issues parents brought up

Little to no outdoor program other than council events or camps

Favoritism in Scouts for POR's

Dual requirements: SM son and ASM sons one set/ others another with more hoops

No adult leadership presence -- bullying issues (SM son is one)

Tried to get on agenda - no communciation returned -

 

well just found out my position as life to eagle advisor was moved to someone else

 

Personal feeling at most is just walk away but conflicted as to whether this is the right thing to do

 

 

[2eagles 10]

Beavah

 

To clarify: I believed this was just a storming momement - it was not until the phone calls started rolling in that I was aware of the miriad of issues.

 

I did step away - haven't been active unless asked for about 2 years. I have passed a few positions on and am very aware of the looking over the shoulder issue - so I tread carefully. I Have backed and supported (by actions and words) the SM from the get go. I didn't have a problem with the SM until my phone started ringing off the hook 3 months ago - directed the unit comish. to the parents and boys.

I have complimented, encouraged etc on all the contributions the current SM has made -- in fact, those talents were part of the reason I recomended him. And it was where the troop needed to grow. I have encouraged the older boys to give it time -- Stressed loyalty to troop, talk to adults, talk with SM, step up to plate -- now two years later they are coming to me and saying we tried - this is what we did, it isn't better but worse.

 

[Eagledad 2781]

Well based from that information, I would just find a place in the agenda and start down your list all the way to the part where the SM replaced you and ask them to justify why you should stay. Doesnt sound like your adults are a team anymore. What does your Charter say about all this? Will the rep be at the meeting? Is your DE any good and can you get them at the meeting? You need some outside witnesses that arent emotionally intimidated for balance.

 

I hate these things. Scouting is great until the adults get involved.

 

Barry

 

[2eagles 10]

Guys

Is it a bad thing to just walk away and work with the boys who have come to us in Venturing?

[AlFansome 10]

 

Taking what you say at face value and if it's as bad as you say, why hasn't the Committee Chair and/or the Chartered Rep removed the Scoutmaster (or started to consider doing so)? You haven't mentioned the Committee Chair in all of this. What is his/her position on the issue?

 

You also say "due to the Scoutmaster shuffling committee positions and removing anyone who does not just fall into to his line ...". Well, the Scoutmaster doesn't have the power to do any of that. He is selected and appointed by the Committee Chair / Chartered Rep, not the other way around.

 

If things are as bad as you say, and if the Committee Chair and/or Chartered Rep has a spine, and if there is someone willing to take over immediately as Scoutmaster, then the Scoutmaster can be removed immediately with a simple "Thank you for your service, we've decided to appoint XXX as Scoutmaster effective immediately".

 

Now, if you don't have any support from the Committee Chair and/or the Chartered Rep, then you've got a much harder task in trying to influence the direction of the Troop.

 

 

[2eagles 10]

Barry your correct the adult team has been broken and chased off -- I agree with you on when adults get involved

 

The Committee chair disagreed and tried to talk to scoutmaster and was removed (or made completely miserable so left) The Charter Rep. has been gone with work and is one of the parents and boys who want a Venture Crew. He is at the point of let it die a natural death -- or may yank charter (I would hate that to happen) There are a group of 6 (helicopter) parents the SM has handling committee positions. They are untrained. You are correct in the scoutmaster doesn't have the power to do that -- however, the SM waved his Woodbadge staff status and maded life so difficult for the CC and son they are leaving the troop.

 

As you said Adults can muck it up -- the sad thing is they are clueless and unwilling to hear any other viewpoints

[AlFansome 10]

 

Two choices:

 

- either walk away (as the Chartered Rep and CC seem to be doing) and let the troop be what it is going to be

 

- or you're going to have to roll your sleeves up and get back involved on an active level as either the SM or CC or Committee Member at the least. If you're willing to do that (and have other adults on your side who are also willing to be on the Committee), then go to the Chartered Rep and get him to toss the SM (and the whole Committee if necessary) and replace them all. He and the head of the Chartered Org own the program and approve (and can replace) the volunteers. All the Wood Badge card waving in the world can't prevent or overturn their decision, if they feel that the troop is going in the wrong direction. Given that the CO is open to starting and owning a new Venturing crew, it's suprising that there's this level of indifference with regards to the Boy Scout troop. I'm the Chartered Rep for 5 units, and you'd be darned sure I'd be at every meeting to assess the situation if I heard that there was this level of dis-function in one of my units.

 

You'll very likely lose alot of boys from the Troop, and that's something you'll need to consider when deciding what you want to do.

 

Good luck.

[Stosh 3452]

I've been sitting back and just listening to the discussion but I'll put in my perspective based on what I've seen.

 

#1 - The original intent/goal of the unit was properly clarified and accepted by everyone.

 

#2 - Over the years those goals were replaced. It is very easy for a charismatic adult to quickly turn a unit from boy to adult led. Unfortunately no one challenged the change at the time it happened.

 

#3 - One can't fight "city hall". Once the adults became entrenched, it's going to stay that way unless THEY change. This will probably never happen given the description of the situation.

 

#4 - Obviously no youth leadership is going to be encouraged because the risk will always be there that they will challenge the adults and they'll never let that happen.

 

The options that are available:

 

#1 - Venture Patrol independent of the adult leadership of the troop. The 6 boys remain with the troop but run their patrol exclusive of the program of the troop. They can cooperate with other youth members, but not the adults. One adult of their choosing will be an advisor for the patrol by his/her only task will be to keep the other adults from interferring. I don't see this as a viable option, but it is still an option.

 

#2 - Start a Venturing Crew of the older boys, but then other scouts in the area will not be able to hook up with the Crew for three years. This "gap" of adult-led means the boys coming in are all going to be seriously lacking in leadership skills and will probably rely a lot on recruiting from within troops in the area to stay viable. This will not set one in good graces with the local troops and SM's.

 

#3 - Start another Troop. Go back to the original intent/goal that was important to the boys originally and have them run the program and select a SM that will guarantee a boy-led program. If the SM must change, have the boys select his/her replacement.

 

Nothing screws over a youth organization faster than adults. I have run into it in every youth group I have worked with. Somehow every parent feels that because it's MY kid, I can run the program in a way that best suits MY kid. Just ask any coach that benches someone's precious budding sports star. Sports, church, BSA, etc. they're all the same, and the loudest, most obnoxious parents are the one's that don't give up until they get their way. It's almost an obsession on their part to have to win or their child will somehow be permanently harmed for the rest of his life.

 

Every organization goes through conflict cycles and once the fighting gets to a certain level, there is nothing one can do to resolve the conflict. Just part one's way and do their own thing.

 

From the original request of the thread, I have no idea which side of the fence the poster is on. It makes no difference. Each party has to decide what's best, and from what I can see in this situation, the boys are going to be the last ones to get a chance to even offer up some input, let alone make any decisions about THEIR program.

 

As a SM of a boy-led program, there isn't a meeting, outing, or event that goes by that I don't have to rein in some adult somewhere that's trying to interfere.

 

Right now I have an adult that convinced the boys that it would be good for the boys to do Pioneering Merit Badge during the troop meetings for the next 5-6 weeks. I had it planned out to offer TLT to the boys, but adults can do a lot to make sure certain things happen the way they wish them to. After a brief conversation with the SPL, unless he's prepared to teach it, I won't be offering TLT again until next fall when the NSP boys coming in next month are ready for it. He's got a tough decision to make now and I'm waiting to hear how things turn out.

 

Stosh

 

 

 

[2eagles 10]

Thanks to you all

 

This is what has transpired during the boy lead meeting on option (I printed all comments on the thread and let the boys read them)

 

Out of the mouths -- Adults pain in tail but can't get rid of

 

This is where they are -- They wanted me to let you know this not what they would like to have happen but "you can't fix stupid"

 

They would like to start a venture crew. They did not see how a venture patrol would work at all do to current issues. Because they believe in the program they are discussing the possiblity of each one also joining different troops as older scout support (the nice thing is they are already welcomed at many troops).

They do not want the Venture Crew to be in competetion with troops but to be an extension (venture patrol available to all troops)(something they are talking about for bylaws) this way any member joining would understand this as a district wide option but not at expense of troops

They believe this is viable because there are very few Venture Crews in area - recruitment would be directed more at those scouts who have gotten so busy making tons of troop meeting is difficult but still want to find a balance of scouting -- (and their term) -- grade demand command appearance ie sports,music etc.

 

This was only the first meeting so -- they have some more thinking to do.

My observations;

The Boy who had served as patrol leader 2 years, aspl 2 years -then said don't call me I will call you on leadership- stepped up when asked for Crew President

The boy who was known for doing the least stepped up for VP Activities - his emails have already started flying

The boy who hates admin. duties but has a talent stepped up (because it was good for the group)

The next discussion was on how they could contact SM in area to see what needs they may have -- skills, merit badge (all of them are ARC youth leaders, lifeguards (full course)

They are also working on how to cover a leadership gap -- viable question with most of them soph. and juniors.

I was then asked what the procedure was for starting the Venture Crew and how could they help.

 

It is hard to believe these fine young men were once the 11yr old boys who stuggled to plan campouts. The program works.

 

After thoughtfully reading all of your input - the old guy faction has decided - some wars can do more damage than repair -- maybe if we had been contacted much sooner we could have directed the unit comm. in for some storming maybe

What is best for the boys: A new troop would (in our small district) create a negative and since some parents haven't called me -- some must be happy. There are maybe 3 crews in 100 mile radius so their is a need. Plus - well it is about the boys

 

Thanks again