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Lisabob

leadership development

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Sorry for the two posts in a row, but I was re-reading some of the posts and came across one from Its me that I would like to respond to.

 

First of all Its me includes a link to a negative review by someone on Servant Leadership style. It has no references, no by-line, etc. so it is of very little value and doesn't add much to the discussion.

 

However, it does reference one important issue that may make a difference. This author states that servant leadership won't work when tasks need to be done. Directive leadership will get things done because people are told and they have to do them. In a business setting this always works. "Either you do as I tell you are you're fired." This also emphasizes the point I have made that directive leadership works only if there is an element of fear that goes along with it. On the other hand servant leadership seeks to serve the needs of others rather than accomplish certain tasks? It takes me back to my early years of business management classes where Theory X and Theory Y sytles of management. This is nothing new, been around since the '30's. Theory X is task oriented management and Theory Y is basically people oriented management. In different situations both work well. But is it well taught when each of these styles are best applied? If it is in the best interest of the members of my patrol to have a clean campsite, have the boys divide themselves into cleanup groups (Theory Y) or assign the boys to groups to clean up (Theory X).

 

However, in the long run, are we here to make Eagles or are we here to serve youth? There are units out there who operate under both leadership styles very well. I guess it just depends on which option one would like for their unit. But saying one approach is right and one is wrong is rather counterproductive to the discussion being presented here on the forum.

 

Stosh

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Of course a good servant leader is a follower. As I mentioned in the patrol-method model I presented earlier, each group is part of other focus groups. The patrol members are the main focus. The PL works to meet the needs of the members, but at the same time the troop-staff of boys are working to meet the needs of the PL's, and the adults are working to meet the needs of the troop-staff. If it is decided that more leadership training is needed by the members of a patrol, it's up to supporting "leaders" to pass this info up to them. Teaching, mentoring, coaching, supporting, assisting, are all words appropriate to servant leadership.

 

Just remember that I cannot be worrying about someone else unless someone else is worrying about me. :^) This is the beauty of servant leadership and the teamwork it develops, not just within the patrol, but in the troop as well, and in the adult staff, and in the committee, and the CO... everyone looking out for the next guy up the focus chain. Whenever a new PL takes over and I have a SM conference with them individually. I remind them that the patrol members that they have, they are responsible for. If he watches out for their needs, I as SM will cover your back and give you want you need to be a great PL. It does work. People are always ready to surrender their autonomy to a true leader they can trust with it who will take care of them.

 

I had a scout once that complained to me that his PL was always picking on him by giving him all the crumby jobs. The PL and I had discussed this when he was having problems getting things done in the patrol. I told him find his best scout and rely/trust him. After I told the scout this, he never again brought the subject up, but the patrol kitchen was always spotless, the Dutch ovens were immaculate and the PL never again had to tell this scout what his "job" needed to be. And by the way, guess who the boys picked for their next PL?

 

Stosh

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jblake, your role model for servant leadership came a couple of thousand years after mine. Hopefully, I don't have to list His creds. Have I read anything on the subject? Yes, the Bible for starters. "The Servant Leader" by Ken Blanchard and Phil Hodges, for another.

 

Matthew 20: 25-28

John 13: 14-15

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Hmmm, I guess that's why we don't see eye to eye on the subject.

 

Stosh

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>>Of course a good servant leader is a follower. As I mentioned in the patrol-method model I presented earlier, each group is part of other focus groups. The patrol members are the main focus. The PL works to meet the needs of the members, but at the same time the troop-staff of boys are working to meet the needs of the PL's, and the adults are working to meet the needs of the troop-staff.

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You avoid the point of the discussion ed in that the method of leadership he used was one of servant leadership he coached and mentored those who followed him for the purpose of their benefit and not his own.

 

While I do not disagree with the theology of your post it has nothing to do with the topic of the thread.

 

The point of my post was to refute your statement that Jesus' purpose on earth was. It wasn't servant leadership.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

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"However, it does reference one important issue that may make a difference. This author states that servant leadership won't work when tasks need to be done.

 

The author is incorrect. He treats Servant Leadership as a method equlivalent to directing, coaching, persuading and delegating, When if fact Servant Leadership is a phiosophy (appraoach) within which the styles of leadership (directing, coaching, persuading and delegating) are used.

 

Your anonymous author has a flawed understanding of what servant leadership refers to.

 

A Scoutmaster who tells a Scout to go get him some water because he is thirsty is using the directive style within a master/servant leadership model. he is telling the follower what to do in order for the follower to benefit the master and his needs.

 

A Scoutmaster who is observing the same scout and is more focused on the welfare of the scout rather than his own needs sees the scout is showing signs of dehydration. the scoutmaster gets some water and tells the scout to come sit down and drink some water, is also using the directive style of leadership but within the philosophy of servant leadership. He understand s that the welfare of the scout is directly related to the scouts ability to get the job done. He sees leadership as a balance between "getting the job done" and "keeping the group together".

 

In Scouting a servant leader uses leadership skills to help his followers learn and grow and succeed, rather than for his or her own comfort or recognition.

 

The use of such incorrect sources could explain your confusion or the confusion others have on this topic.

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In Scouting a servant leader uses leadership skills to help his followers learn and grow and succeed, rather than for his or her own comfort or recognition.

 

Actually, this would be leading by example. Servant leadership is not the same thing. Leading by example is one of the most effective ways to lead.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

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>>"However, it does reference one important issue that may make a difference. This author states that servant leadership won't work when tasks need to be done.

 

The author is incorrect. He treats Servant Leadership as a method equlivalent to directing, coaching, persuading and delegating, When if fact Servant Leadership is a phiosophy (appraoach) within which the styles of leadership (directing, coaching, persuading and delegating) are used.

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And this is why I don't agree with the distorted concept of the more modern management theorists on the subject of servant leadership.

 

Everything everyone talks about revolves around doing tasks. Modern authors have taken a concept and quantified it into chunks of information as to HOW to do servant leadership. A semi-intelligent monkey can be taught to do servant leadership... duh!, it's already being done. Seeing-eye dogs are trained servant leaders.

 

If one goes back to the original model on earlier works before it was quantified and marketed as a way of selling books, one will quickly find that servant leadership what a person IS and not what they DO. A caring person can be taught leadership skills quite easily. But can a leader be taught caring? That's a whole different dynamic not being addressed.

 

So we have Life Scouts working on their Eagles that the only time they show up at meetings is when they need their fellow scouts to help on their project, or when they need something signed off, or when they need, they need, they need... These are not servant leaders they are only interested in getting a resume reference and a check box on their college admission forms. These scouts have had 7 years to figure it out and didn't.

 

One can go through the process of teaching these boys leadership and for the most part it may help groups in some cases, but it also feeds their selfishness and in some cases emboldens them to dominance over others to accomplish this. Explain to me how such teamwork can be accomplished in a situation where the Eagle candidate falls into this type of situation.

 

Stosh

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"Seeing-eye dogs are trained servant leaders."

 

That is the only thing you have said about servant leadership that I do not disagree with.

 

What you seem to fail to appreciate though is that the dog did not naturally come by this skill. He or she was taught to do it. And animals that have not been taught will not know how to do it as well if at all. In addition not all service animals are able to do it as weel. Not that they do it badly, but they are not all as good at it as others. And not everyone has the skills to do the teaching.

 

Youth and adults are no different when it comes to those facts.

 

"But can a leader be taught caring? That's a whole different dynamic not being addressed."

 

Absolutely they can be taught. Caring people can be taught how to use that to lead others. And people who do not lead well can be taught how adopting a servant leader attitude can improve their leadeship abilities. It is absolutely a teachable skill set approach to leadership.

 

"So we have Life Scouts working on their Eagles that the only time they show up at meetings is when they need their fellow scouts to help on their project, or when they need something signed off, or when they need, they need, they need... These are not servant leaders

 

 

WHAT??? Of course it's not but then these aren't leadership situations youare describing.

 

When a scout is in the testing phase on an advancement requirement,. let's say he has to using lashing to build a usable camp gadget" is he using serbvant leadership? No because he is not leading someone else, he is doing something unrelated to a leadership role. Id he building the gadet to help another scout advance. He better not be.

 

How do you use a servant leadershp approach when you are not in a leadership situation. Sorry but I do not see a relationship between your example and BSA's use of servant leadership.

 

If a scout has not learned how to actively serve in a leadershipo position after 7 years, then WHY was he advanced? That is not a fault of the BSA programs or of the servant leadership model. That is just a leader not understanding the program.

 

"One can go through the process of teaching these boys leadership and for the most part it may help groups in some cases, but it also feeds their selfishness and in some cases emboldens them to dominance over others to accomplish this."

 

If that is the result you are getting then you are doing it wrong.

 

"Explain to me how such teamwork can be accomplished in a situation where the Eagle candidate falls into this type of situation.

 

Waiting until the patient is in his deathroe is no time to finnaly ask for a doctor.

 

No one can help with a situation that wqas created over 7 years and now the scout is aging out. That leader has waited to long to ask for help. But the BSA can help them with the next 7 years.

 

If this is result that a leader is getting they need to realize they need to change, because if they keep doing what they have done they will keep getting what they have got. If the leader thinks they have followed the program they need to understyand that they haven't, and the only thing that will get them the results that you can get through a scouting programn is to start actually using the scouting program.

 

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What is "actively serving" in a leadership position? To me it is actually doing something in a leadership position, not just holding the title. Now what is done is up to the Scout & his Scoutmaster. If the Scout meets his Scoutmasters expectations of the leadership position, then he advances. Servant leadership has nothing to do with it! And stating it does is totally absurd!

 

A good leader will first be a good follower.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

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Ed...the BSA program and its training and resources ALL teach and support servant leadership.

 

While you are correct that the scout must lead and the scoutmaster must approve, it would be nice if the scoutmaster was teaching the Boy Scouting Method of Youth Development in the way the Boy Scout training and resources do, and that the scout be evaluated evaluated on the use of the Boy Scout Method of Leadership Styles, after all it is the "Boy Scout Program" right? It is not an unreasonable expectation.

 

 

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I would agree Bob. I still feel leading by example is the most important way to lead.

 

Exactly, what does "servant leadership" mean to you, Bob?

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You could read the thread again ed to get that information. If you are still unsure there are some books on the topic you might consider reading, or you might ask your local Boy Scout Roundtable commissioner to spend some time on the topic at an upcoming meeting.

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