Making a cut

[DugNevius 10]

Another what to do about a trouble scout topic.

 

This summer our troop is going out to Philmont, trek 32 and 30. The 14 boys going out (2 crews) have been signed up and in our training program since September. We are heading out west in 72 days.

 

Every scout going to Philmont (as well as our southwest trip for the younger guys) have put down non-refundable deposits and have signed commitment forms and each scout and parent understands that no one is guaranteed a spot, meaning kids and adults that can not meet the physical standards and/or scouts that are disciplinary problems, suffer extreme homesickness or anything else will be cut from the trip. The last thing anyone wants is for the group to go out west, get on the trail and there be a breakdown causing the need for a scout leaving early, or having someone not able to complete the trek. During our training treks and PTs we are evaluating each member of each of the 4 crews to see how they interact with each other and how they handle everything.

 

We have a red flag scout already.

 

Here is a little background. This scout is the youngest of three. His two older brothers were in the troop, the oldest got Eagle in 2001 and has been an active adult leader over the years, the other made it to life. The parents have been a major part of the troop, fund raising and organizing diners have been just part of their contributions and the father was one ASM that led our southwest trip in 1998 for the younger scouts. This family has been a giant part of our troop.

 

The youngest son, the scout in question, started off well and was on the fast track to success in scouting, wishing to follow in his oldest brothers footsteps. He advanced quickly, had great scout spirit and was all around a fun kid to have around. But he suffered homesickness at summer camp a few years ago, every night he needed attention and wouldnt go to sleep.

 

During the regular year all seemed fairly well, or so it seemed. I and the other leaders were unaware that this scout was calling home in the middle of the night inside his tent on a hidden cell phone.

 

Last summer he was elected patrol leader, before we headed off to summer camp. This scout was a complete disaster. His homesickness hindered every aspect of his position. He couldnt get anything done. He was too busy trying to find ways to call home to lead his patrol to make meals. He was caught several times trying to use the camp staff phone to call home. He would start fights with other troop members. There were several times where he broken down so completely that he lay on the ground in hysterics. The scoutmaster had to have several talks with him, a few of which the scout lashed out at the scoutmaster verbally. The hysterics of this scout began to spread, upsetting several of the younger scouts, within the troop and soon there were a few scouts in tears, not to mention his patrol was in shambles. Luckily, an older member of the patrol took things into his own hands and relieved the scout of his duty as PL.

 

After summer camp his parents approached me concerned. The scout was signed up to go to Philmont and now he wasnt sure he wanted to go, the aspect of being away from home was too frightening. He had also come up with the idea that the scoutmaster was to blame for his issues and decided to hold the scoutmaster in contempt.

 

I like to give every scout a second chance. I was also friends with his oldest brother and highly respected his parents for all they had done in the troop. I wanted this scout to stick it through. I then learned that he had influenced another scout that Philmont would not be fun and that they should quit the troop.

 

So I had several discussions with the boys trying to get him to a) realize that the trip will be fun and an experience of a lifetime and b) the scoutmaster is not to blame. The two boys decided that they would go. Their parents paid the deposits and they signed the commitment forms.

 

The scout had to finish out his 6 month term as PL. Needless to say it was still a disaster making us question if he needed to step down. His attitude didnt change and began again to effect the scouts in his patrol. Luckily when his term was over he was done with being a patrol leader.

 

He continues to be an issue. He does not attend camping trips, is disruptive during meetings and misses out on our PTs which are crucial to evaluation. In an effort to help the situation his father decided to go to Philmont as well, as an adult. This hasnt helped. In fact it has added to the problem. This father is not physically up to the task of backpacking 80+ miles in NM. While he has lost weight and is doing some exercise on his own, he too has not made any trip and only attended one PT in which he could not complete running a mile.

 

The scouts attitude is again spreading. Once again his lack of scout spirit and his disruptive nature has began to effect the moral of the crew. Other scouts and several parents have expressed concern. At a parent meeting dealing with Philmont a parent asked what guarantee we can give that this trip will not become a babysitting expedition for the adults and scout leaders because of one or two scouts. The troop committee and scoutmasters are all concerned.

 

What are we to do? How do we deal with this situation? Only 70+ days left until we depart out west and there is little hope that this kid will step up to the plate. One option was to approach the scout and parent and give them the option of bowing out now. I worry that if the kid goes he may try to take a few scouts that are great scouts with him, but I also worry that if he continues to stick around he will sap more spirit out of the troop. As an older scout several of the younger guys look up to him and some have begun to adopt his negative attitude. Also, if he were to leave most likely the troop would lose the contributions of his parents.

 

Any advice on how to proceed?

 

[johndaigler 10]

Dug, it seems like you know the answer just not the method of achieving it.

 

I'm a Cub leader (DL, CC and Trainer), so keep my views in perspective. I do. But, I know kids (12 years of high/middle school teaching and 4 years of Principaling), and I did Philmont twice as a teen - once as crew chief with my father as crew leader. He was not physically prepared for the trip; it almost killed him. Luckily, his head was stronger than his body and together we found ways to make it work. The better answer would have been for him to stay home, but it's hard to tell a Scouter (eventually a Silver Beaver) that Philmont can't be part of his Scouting adventure. Someone who knew should have cared enough and been strong enough to tell my Dad the truth.

 

You've set the standards with your PTs and preparatory campouts - now follow through. If the boy and his dad don't meet expectations, then you owe it to everyone else to keep them home. Philmont's a blast, but there are safety concerns, and these two will be endangering their teammates. At the very least, they'll be lessening the experience for others. They've already gotten to you. Why should your trip or anyone else's suffer because of them? If one other Scout's adventure is lessened by this family's behavior then it's pretty obvious that you'd be doing the wrong thing if you let them go.

 

Anyway, the question remains, how to tell this Scout and his involved family that he shouldn't be going on this trip?

 

Direct and honest is the way to go. The point is you care about them and the rest of the boys. "We're sorry, but no, you're not meeting the standards/expectations we've set for this experience. If you're interested, we're willing to work with you between now and the next Expedition. You're not ready for this, but we know that by working hard, you can be a strong teammate on the next trip."

 

A Scout is Brave - do the right thing.

 

I know, easier said than done -- it's even easier to type!

 

Good Luck!

 

jd

 

 

 

[Eamonn 61]

Wow, there is a lot of stuff going on.

It is great to have a family that is pro- scouting and is active in helping the Troop.

Dad being a ASM or ex ASM?? He really can't not see what is happening with his kid??

The SM really does need to talk with the Lad. A Scoutmaster conference is overdue.

Am I reading that the Lad really doesn't want to be a Scout? Could be that coming from a Scouting family he just is afraid to tell his parents that he just doesn't want to be in the program. Yes it does Happen!!

I had a Lad at the Jamboree in 2001. As we boarded the bus his Mother an Ex-Cubmaster and Ex-Unit Commissioner (The Dad served on the District Finance Committee) Informed me that her Son didn't want to go.

Day one at a Jamboree is hard work, there is a lot to do and the heat doesn't help. The Lad seemed fine. Day two I got beckoned to go see the Chaplin, the Lad is with him telling him that he wants to go home. We three sat and talked for a very long time. To be honest the Chaplin was getting in the way. ( A nice man from the Philippines, who didn't speak very good English) It became obvious that we were getting no place, so I told the Lad to phone his parents and tell them to come and pick him up. He said that he had already called and no one would pick up!!

He went back to his tent and cut all the patches off his Scout shirt.

I went and had a heart to heart with him. He said that he hated Scouting and his Dad said that he couldn't quit till he was an Eagle Scout.

I really didn't want a Lad who was going to be a right Royal pain with me for ten days. So I asked him to stick it out till we got home and then I would talk to his parents for him and with him. He tried really hard not to have a good time, but it was too much for him.

When we got home I visited his home and explained what had been said.

His parents allowed him to quit Scouting. The District lost the Dad who was the person in charge of selling ads in the Council calender.

But at the end of the day we do this for the kids - Even those that don't want to be in Scouting.

I would forget about the family and focus on what is best for the Lad, even if that means that he quits Scouting and he loses his deposit.

Eamonn.

[OldGreyEagle 5]

SOmething else to consider is could you find a replacment for them? I know its late, but in the troop or in the surrounding troops you might find a scout and adult leader in fine enough shape and have them pay your scout and dad the deposit. It might take the sting out of being told you cant come.

 

I mean like an older scout who might wrestle or play another sport or something like that. Your family may be hanging on because of the deposit but if it could be returned to them, they may bow out

 

If you see a train comming while sitting on the tracks, and you hear the whistle blowing, and you feel the rails vibrate, just when do you decide to move? Sooner is always better than later

[DugNevius 10]

Honestly, if this scout was any other scout he would have been cut a long while ago, but because of who his family is and all that they have accomplished and done for the troop he has been given more then fair amounts of leniency. Its safe to say for a while now he has been a sore subject that the adult leaders have been avoiding. He is not the most undisciplined scout and there are a few other scouts that have done unscout-like actions which needed disciplinary action, but hes a constant moral sapper and has installed zero confidence in all involved in our summer program. We are beginning to come to the conclusion that this scout is beyond salvaging.

 

But if he were to go, his departure may effect other scouts. It may raise doubts in the hearts of scouts that are clear potentails for eagle and troop leaders and it may influence younger scouts to the negative as well.

 

If he is to stay he is a huge liability to the group going west and is a constant distraction for all leaders adult and scout and sets a horrible example.

[johndaigler 10]

Dug,

 

I know it's not simple, but it's a negative if he stays, AND a negative if he goes??

 

I'm comfortable viewing shades of gray, but that's got even me wishing for black and white!

 

Respectfully, I suggest putting all that adult socio-poltical gooo on the side and ask yourself, and your co-leaders, what's best for the largest number of boys -- looking long term, of course.

 

A wise man once said, "...Honestly, if this scout was any other scout he would have been cut a long while ago . . . hes a constant moral (The wise man probably meant "morale" ) sapper and has installed zero confidence in all involved in our summer program . . . If he is to stay he is a huge liability to the group going west and is a constant distraction for all leaders adult and scout and sets a horrible example. "

 

Respectfully, it seems like it's time to "walk the walk".

 

 

However, I disagree with another thing the wise man said: "We are beginning to come to the conclusion that this scout is beyond salvaging." He's not ready for this adventure, so he stays home. I get that, but I don't think that means we have to Pontious Pilate him. It's still our responsibility and vocation to help him grow and become better than what he is. Keeping him from this trip doesn't need to equal excommunication. (Apparently, I've got white metaphorical smoke in my eyes.)

 

Anyway, Dug, just do it. Stop making yourself crazy. Some additional dominoes may fall, but won't your outfit be better off in the long run because you have standards and expectations?

 

Good Luck,

 

jd

 

 

 

 

[Bob White 20]

Are you familiar with Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs"? It is a great tool to understand what makes some scouts home sick and some thrive at cammp. It also is a good tool to evaluate the needs of a scout, which an adult leader has to help fulfill in order for the scout to grow and develop.

 

Maslow's pyramid of needs from lowest level to peak go in this order.

1 = Physiological

2 = Safety

3 = Belongingness and Love

4 = Esteem

5 = Self-Actualization

 

Basically Maslow's theory is that a person cannot move up to the next level until the lower level needs are sufficiently met.

 

For instance a person will not be concererned about safety if he is hungry thirsty and without shelter. But once his pysiological needs are met the individual looks for ways to secure those resources and protect himself. Once he feels healthy and safe the individual will seek social acceptance and belonging.

 

Home sickeness stemms from one or more of three basic levels of human needs not being met. If the scout is not eating or sleeping well he cannot even think about fitting into a social structure. he instincts are to seek to fill these psyiological deficiencies. Where do his instincts tell him that these basic needs can be filled? At home of course. If he is being picked on by peers and criticized by leaders how can he feel safe? His natural instaincts tell him to fix this deficiciency. Where does he feel safe? At home. If he is not fitting in socially how can he move to the next level of seeking esteem in his community? So he will want to go where he is accepted as a part of a group...back with his family.

 

Observant Scout leaders understand that knowing and understanding the characteristics of the group they lead is an important skill. They understand why home sickness happens and they look for signs in the scouts of need deficiencies. Is the food healthy and enjoyable to the scout, does he have a comfortable enough sleeping arrangement, is he relatively safe from the environment, Is he participating in the group, is he getting personal positive recognition. A scout who has these things will not get homesick because there is nothing missing in his personal needs.

 

Seeing that the elements needed for the scout to feel these needs is a responsibility of the adult leader.

 

Once a person reaches self-actualzation he will be able to recognize deficiencies and fill them himself. But first he must be brought to that point.

 

Just something I learned a while back at scout leader training.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[DugNevius 10]

homesickness has other causes besides the need for better food or sleeping arrangments. In any case homesickness is just a small part of the plethora of issues with this scout.

 

This sunday the troop is meeting for a PT. If this scout and/or is father is not in attendance they will be cut from the summer trip.

[Bob White 20]

homesickness has other causes besides the need for better food or sleeping arrangments.

 

I agree, and I pointed that out in the post. If he does not feel safe, and if he does not feel welcomed in the community of the group then he will not be able to move beyond those deficiences and will instictually work to get the deficiences corrected. He will natuirally work to go home. Helping him is what servant leadership in scouting is about. If every scout had the ability to be self sufficient from the start there would be no need for adults.

 

If adults are not there to understand individuals scout's and how they can help them to develop in a positive way then what are they they for?

[DugNevius 10]

That is true. Im not sure what you are intending to imply, however another truth is one scout can not monopolize the time and energy of the adults on a trip and there is only so much an adult can do. Some scouts have extenuating circumstances that lead to the fact that there may not be all that much two adults can do in order to allow that scout to function. Scoutmasters and adult chaparones are not Child Pyscologists and it is unfair for them to be forced to be that. Eliminating the homesickness all together from the issues with this boy, we are still in a tough position that would potentially ruin the entire summer trip. It is not because of the homesickness that parents and scouts have voiced concern, but rather the disruptive, negative and destructive behavior.

[Bob White 20]

But in your original post you attribute that behavior to his homesickness.

 

You wanted advice on how to proceed. An adult leader who understands the needs and characteristics of boys needs to talk with this scout in a positive counseling way and find out which of his basic needs are not being met and keeping him from moving forward in his growth. Then that leader needs to see how the methods of scouting can be used to help support and develop the scout.

 

Do you have such a person available?

 

"and there is only so much an adult can do."

True, but maybe they haven't done it yet.

 

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[DugNevius 10]

Bob if this is another attempt at pointing my lack of beeing a woodbadge member as the cause of any problems in our troop its weak, being that the two adults at summer camp during the time of his breakdown, the scoutmaster and the troop committee chairman are both Trained.

 

The homesickness was the beginning of what has become a chain of events but not the cause, simply what put the scout on the radar. As someone who "understands the needs and characteristics" of this boy his parents have had me work with him on several occasions, meeting with him several times in neutral conditions to try to work out his issues. Each time he would show signs of improvment but it was always fleeting, followed by hitting new lows of disruptive behavior. The scoutmaster had talks with him but the scout resents the scoutmaster and wont even aswer direct questions asked of him. His parents have had talks with him. His older brother has tried to work things out. Its like talking to a rock.

[Bob White 20]

I have made no mention of your abilities I talked only of the abilities that will be needed in the adult who helps this scout.

 

You asked how to proceed. I assumed you meant how do you help this scout. But you sound as if that is not the solution you are after. What resolution then are you asking for directions on?

 

It seems obvious that something is really troubling this youth and his relationship with the SM could be a big part of it.

 

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[DugNevius 10]

The adult to help this scout seems more and more to be a Profesional.

 

The question is what is best for the troop.

[lynncc 10]

You have received some great advice. In one of your last posts you said he would be cut from the trek if he did not attend the PT. That is only fair. If you do not meet the preestablished criteria you do not go. period.

 

Don't jump on me I am a cubscouter and do not know all of the boy scouts law. Will be working on it but not there yet...anyway in my humble opinion one of our jobs is to teach these youngster to be responsible adults to make the right choices etc....If you make exceptions for some people (kids or parents) then what are you teaching the kids. If you contribute lots of time and money to the troop then we will overlook certain things. As you said if he were anyone else he would have already been cut.

 

Someone else said look at the longrange effects on the troop. I say look at the long range effects on the kids. Again if you let people because of "who they are" do things they should not be doing you are not doing a service to them or the others. Or then again if you are going for the life is unfair learn it now....because as I sit here and type I am thinking of my real life job where they drill into us treat everyone the same.....until its a friend of the CEO or some "VIP" from a big corporation and then by all means treat them better.....gag me now...anyway...I don't think that should apply to scouts. Especially when it involves the safety of a trip (and bad attitudes are infectious and can ultimately effect the safety of the trip).

 

Don't let who they are effect your judgement. Or that it would be a great experience you don't want him to miss. He won't miss it if it turns out bad......

 

On a side note. If he started out being a good scout no discipline problems and now he is having problems that is a red flag in itself and his parents should be trying to find out why. Does he not want to do scouting like someone else said. Is school going bad for any number of reasons. Has he gotten in the wrong crowd...is he "on" something.....Are his parents getting along. Something just doesn't sound right.

 

Long post. sorry. Good luck