The Patrol Method Does NOT Work Because....

[Eagle92 110]

Ok I kept trying to spin off and it aint happening. So here we go again.

 

You and I both know the Patrol Method works. Heck it is the cornerstone of Scouting, the very foundation for all the methods and goals and ideals of Scouting.

 

But we have parents, and unfortunately leaders, that do not understand the patrol method and say it doesn't or won't work, when 104 years of Scouting history show otherwise.

 

So what I want to know is the following.

 

A) What are some of the excuses for why it doesn't work that you have heard.

 

B) How you countered those arguments,

 

C) Examples of the PM in action.

 

I'll try to post mine later.

[Stosh 3452]

1) I think one of the dynamics I have seen working is the need for adult leaders to produce "successful" programs and that isn't going to be obvious in a PM troop. SM's are under scrutiny by CC and committee and parents and other leaders to make sure there is a degree of success with tangible results, i.e. # of Eagles produced each year, etc.

 

If one were to leave this process up to the boys and they decide to define success in terms different than the adults, the PM will go down the toilet rather quickly.

 

2) Secondly the program drives the boys, not the other way around. People in the "know", i.e. know what their children want and the last thing anyone wants to do is rock the boat by actually asking them what they want. If those two things don't match, conflict arises.

 

3) Leadership is no longer defined by boys anymore. It's always easier for adults to teach organizational skills and call it leadership, issue a patch, and send the boys off happy, than to allow natural leadership to develop within the PM as Powell and Hillcourt envisioned.

 

4) Independence and self-confidence in a teenager is a major threat to parents in today's world. If my boy grows up to be independent and self-confident, he may leave home and make a life of his own. Seriously, there are a lot of parents that can't handle that idea. That's why the PM training to go out on their own for overnights has been systematically removed from the program.

 

5) Trust is also an issue. These are just little kids, what do they know? Since day one, parents, teachers, pastors, etc. have all been telling the kids what they can and can't do. It takes a lot more trust on the side of these people to trust that their lessons actually have worked. PM actually trains them to do exactly that, but no one is ever going to trust giving these boys a final test of their lessons.

 

Just a few thoughts....

 

Stosh

[Tampa Turtle 1011]

(1) Lord of the Flys. The little savages will burn the place down if we let them.

 

(2) Safety. They need constant supervision or there will be a TERRIBLE incident which leads us to...

 

(3) Liability. We will all be sued when a boy dies because we let them do things on their own.

 

(4)Kids today are spoiled. They can barely go to the bathroom without adult supervision.

 

(5) We tried it and it didn't work.

 

(6) We tried and the parents complained that the meetings were too noisy, advancements not getting done...

 

(7) Come on it has NEVER been boy-led. The adults manipulate the boys in whatever direction they want.

 

(8) Boys don't have the time these days. Maybe that worked in the past but today boys are too busy to participate and lead too.

 

(9) The Troop method is easier and more efficient.

[Engineer61 19]

1) Tradition does not equal success.

 

2) Times change, the program should too.

[SeattlePioneer 144]

Wow.... you guys are VERY good.

 

 

OK --- you have me convinced!

[Engineer61 19]

Oh...I forgot to ask...in these modern days of processes and metrics ...

 

Define "Work"?

[shortridge 184]

Excuses:

 

>> The boys don't know what they want.

>> The boys can't decide on anything.

>> The boys always make the wrong decisions.

>> The boys always choose the same old activities.

>> The boys always choose ridiculously overpriced or overly ambitious activities.

>> The boys aren't experienced enough to work without adult supervision.

>> The experienced boys don't have the right kind of experience to do that activity without adult supervision.

>> We'll just stand back and watch without saying anything.

[BartHumphries 10]

Independence and self-confidence in a teenager is a major threat to parents in today's world. If my boy grows up to be independent and self-confident, he may leave home and make a life of his own. Seriously, there are a lot of parents that can't handle that idea.

My brother did that. At 14 -- going to work in the construction industry initially moving lumber and other bottom-of-the-run jobs and later as a framer. When he was 15, someone outed him to Child Protective Services and since he was too young to be working the construction job he was at, he was sent back. When he was 16 or so, he got himself legally emancipated, took his GED in lieu of finishing high school and went right back into construction. Today he's finishing his bachelors in genetics and working in a lab. His particular path, though, may not be the path that most people envision their child taking. The idea of a child leaving the home at that age would likely terrify most parents (and with good cause in most cases -- it terrified my parents). I think the definition of the phrase "independent and self confident and ready to leave home to make a life of his own" may mean different things to different people.

 

I remember talking with one guy who was a little bitter about his introduction to the patrol method. "My leaders came to us and told us that we were in charge, that it was our job to plan the activities and so we all voted to just play basketball every week."

 

He was right -- his leaders basically hung him out to dry. Introducing a troop to the patrol method who isn't already used to that, bringing up the idea that the boys should be leading terrifies most people because in most cases the boys have no real experience leading and would do a, if you pardon my French, a craptacular job at it. Most parents who are used to an adult-run situation would consider this a grand failure and quickly start to clamor that the situation must be reversed, that "order must be restored".

 

Scoutmaster and ASM's get training -- mandatory now under the new National regulations which promote the idea that every leader must be trained. We get all sorts of material about how Scouting should work and there are all sorts of supplementary materials available to help us adults plan things and basically hold our hands through the planning process. Our boys get... Troop Leadership Training, if they're lucky, otherwise they're on their own. It's no wonder that, in this situation, adults would do a better job of planning things out than the boys would do. Boys need to be given the same tools that their leaders get -- if an adult isn't going to be able to figure things out on their own and adult training is mandatory, then why should we expect a kid with even less experience and knowledge to be able to figure things out on their own?

 

I'm not saying that adults should be leading, that the patrol method won't work, I'm talking about why the patrol method doesn't work in some cases. Troops should be boy-led, but sometimes boys must be shown how to do that. To a boy who's been in an adult-run troop, it's suddenly going to seem like the adults are foisting off more work on the boy. The boy needs to see or be shown that he's grabbing the reins of his own destiny.

 

When the boys really want to spend all their time fishing, shooting, and playing basketball, though... when there isn't a boy-led culture already, it can be a struggle to get the troop into that boy-led situation without spoonfeeding everything and essentially preventing the boys from leading.

[Eagle92 110]

Ok I am hearing some good arguments on why it won't work, now how do you COUNTER those arguments?

 

In case you haven't figured it out, I am using you guys to prep myself for what I have a feeling will be one heck of a cracker barrel/Patrol Method session at IOLS.

 

PLEAE KEEP THEM COMING both teh arguments against, and the counter arguments.

 

Stosh,

 

Good points all. Your post is going to really make me think on responses. One reason for the prep, I aint the fastest commentator.

 

TT,

 

1) Lord of the Flys. The little savages will burn the place down if we let them.

 

Answer: How do you know ever tried? If you give the scouts responsibilities, give them high expectations, and "Train them, trust them, let them lead," you will be surprised at the results. After all the BSA has been around for 101 years. Something must be working right.

 

(2) Safety. They need constant supervision or there will be a TERRIBLE incident which leads us to...

 

(3) Liability. We will all be sued when a boy dies because we let them do things on their own.

 

Answer: Of course safety is the primary concern of all leaders, that's why their is a Guide to Safe Scouting, lots of training available, and tons of resources for leaders.

 

BUT Scouting provides a chance for Scouts to learn and grow, and part of the learning process is making mistakes. Scouting IS the safe environment for Scouts to try new things, go on adventures, etc with leaders there when needed to provide a safe environment.

 

EXAMPLE, When I was up in Canada as a Scout, it was one of my patrol mates who recognized I got hypothermia, and treated me, not an adult. Although they were there in the background and supervising.

 

(4)Kids today are spoiled. They can barely go to the bathroom without adult supervision.

 

ANSWER: I agree with you, a lot of kids are spoiled. But part of the problem is that parents will not let go. Let's face it when parents are calling their child's college professors and threatening to sue b/c the child got a B instead of an A, the problem is with the adult, not the child.

 

Scouting provides the safe environment for the scout to do things on their own, succeeding, and failing on their own in a safe environment. Wouldn't you rather your son learn how to take care of themselves now, where there is a safety net, than after 4 years in college and they cannot cope?

 

(5) We tried it and it didn't work.

 

(6) We tried and the parents complained that the meetings were too noisy, advancements not getting done...

 

Answer: How long did your try it for, what exactly did you do, and how did you inform the parents? ASIDE: depending upon the answer will base the rest of the answer.

 

(7) Come on it has NEVER been boy-led. The adults manipulate the boys in whatever direction they want.

 

How do you know if you never tried it before? If you call adults advising youth on the possibilities and what planning is involved for an event that changes the mind of the PLC b/c they realize a particular activity isn't feasible manipulation, then yes you are correct. But if you consider the same situation an adult advising his PLC what will be needed for them to do a trip, and they realize it is not feasible or worth then it is not manipulation.

 

EXAMPLE PLC wanted to do something really cool with the Webelos for their overniter, and get some work done for Wilderness Survival MB. SM talked about all that was entailed, how the Webelos wouldn't have all the skills or equipment to do that right away, etc, and maybe come up with something different. And they did. Instead of individual shelters, they would make patrol shelters instead with the webelos being divided amonsgt the patrols. Also folks brought extra stuff with them, just in case it was needed.

 

(8) Boys don't have the time these days. Maybe that worked in the past but today boys are too busy to participate and lead too.

 

How do you know until you do it? And just like any organization, whether it's the Kiwanis, PTO, or Elks, have you noticed a few of the people do the bulk of the work?

 

(9) The Troop method is easier and more efficient.

 

For having Scouts getting rank or teaching classes, maybe. But do the scouts really master the Scouting skills?

 

Also the real goal of Scouting is to make good citizens by allowing our youth to grow physically, mentally, and morally. And let's face it the PM has all the elements of our democratic republic: Scouts are members of patrols in a troop = states in the USA

patrols elect PLs to represent the patrol at the PLC = citizens voting for the congress critters, Scouts vote for a SPL to lead the troop = citizens voting for the president etc.

 

Eng

 

1) Tradition does not equal success.

 

2) Times change, the program should too.

 

You're right tradition does not equal success, but if something has proven that it is effective for over 100 years, wouldn't you call it successful? I certainly would.

 

As for the times change, program should, it depends. Tweaking a successful program to make it better is one thing. Heck it can be argued that BP tweaked the PM after Brownsea, as he had 2 patrol with 5 members in them, and realised that 6-8 work better. And Green Bar Bill could be said to tweak the program further with his ideas of the SPL and PLC.

 

But sometimes change is very, very bad. Look at the New Coke fiasco. In scouting, we changed the program in the 1970s, and the BSA suffered because of it because they took one element that had made it successful: the OUTING in ScOUTING.

 

As for defining "Work", and would define it as a the process that leads to the successful completion of a goal. While some will argue that Eagle is the goal, those that are really misinformed IMHO, the goal is the creation of good citizens.

 

Short,

>> The boys don't know what they want.

 

Have you asked them? Have you even given them some options for them to choose from? Unfortunately in today's society kids are not given any choices to be independent. Heck we are event trying to make 25 years dependent still. So yes you may have a point they don't know what they want because no one has ever allowed them to have an opinion and express themselves.

 

That's why Scouting is important. A good leader can get the scouts to come out of their shells and tell them what they want to do. A good leader works with the youth, aids them and helps them to grow. And part of that is helping them to realize that they do knwo what they want to do.

 

>> The boys can't decide on anything.

 

Well if you are not giving them a chance to think about it, how can they ASIDE rest of conversation woudl eb along lines of the above.

 

>> The boys always make the wrong decisions.

 

So you are telling me that if they decide to jump off a cliff, they would all do it? Also what is wrong if they make wrong decisions that leads to mistakes that forces them to learn?

 

Example, a friend of mine went to Philmont with a SM who had been there many times, and knew very well the trek they chose. When there, the patrol missed a turning point b/c they were not paying attention, and the SM let them continue down the trail they were on until they realized they missed a turn a few hours later. Lesson learned: Gotta pay attention in the woods.

 

>> The boys always choose the same old activities.

 

If the boys like the activities, why not? Or how about suggesting ideas to expand on their favorite activities

 

Example My old troop started doing a wilderness survival weekend as a recruiting tool for Webelos and it worked so well that it became an annual event. They mix up the some of the activities and menus, but it is essentially the same trip,and the boys love it.

 

>> The boys always choose ridiculously overpriced or overly ambitious activities.

 

Have you counseled them on the activity? Have you talked about them earning their way? One of the sad things I miss in the current BSHB is the idea of the scout earning their own way. If they want to do something ambitious, make sure they knwo all the details of it and see if they still want to do it. If so, then work with them to make it happen.

 

Example I went to Jambo and Canada and paid a good bit of it. My leadership provided opportunities to earn my way, and also allowed my mom to help fundraise. And when we were short the last $100 and was backing down (and willing to forfeit all the money i worked for I might add), they were able to help out by getting me a sponsor.

 

>> The boys aren't experienced enough to work without adult supervision.

 

See above

 

>> The experienced boys don't have the right kind of experience to do that activity without adult supervision.

 

And whose fault is that? The role of the SMs is to train the Scouts. Grant you once you got a fully functional PM troop that has a tradition and expectation of the JR leaders giving back and mentoring the younger scouts, you won't have as much work to do training them, you are responsible.

 

So give them TLSC, Heck go old school and use the 3rd ed. SMHB formula to get your scouts up to par.

 

Butyou need to "Train them, trust them, and let them lead.

 

>> We'll just stand back and watch without saying anything.

 

that's not the role of a SM. You need to guide and mentor them.

 

More later

 

 

[BartHumphries 10]

For an adult-led troop to continue as it always has, the net cost is zero. To transition to a boy-led troop is going to cost both time and money. Pay for gas, pay for missed work opportunities, pay for the boys to attend a week-long NYLT... Not to mention, boys can't usually drive themselves anywhere and you're going to have to get them to come to the planning meetings even though you're already trying to balance ASM schedules...

 

"Ah, the Council's just trying to push this on us because they want more money. Do you know how much we already pay every year in FoS contributions?"

 

It's difficult to transition to a boy-led troop. You've heard the saying, "If it ain't broke, why fix it?" You have to show people how what they have isn't working (why they need to change), which if they've put a lot of effort into the program already they're not going to want to hear, so you have to be very diplomatic about it (truthful, but very kind, so kind that they actually want you to keep telling them more instead of shutting you out).

 

This is something that's going to take months of work and serious effort and money. You can't just show people a PowerPoint and fix the problem. IOLS is an introduction to outdoor skills. If you try to make it more than that, you're going to lose people. "Don't bother going to that IOLS course, they teach some useful stuff, but they're mostly just going to harp on how wrong we are."(This message has been edited by BartHumphries)

[Eagle92 110]

Powerpoint, POWERPOINT, WE DON'T NEED NO STINKING POWERPOINT!

 

 

One of the reasons why after talking about it, it was decided to do PM at crackerbarrell instead of at the beginning as in the syllabus.

 

And you are 110% correct on the diplomacy bit. The "most successful troop" with YZ number of Eagles will hopefully be there, and it's gotta be done with tact.

 

And yes it can take years to set up. In regards to money how will it be more expensive? I know food is cheaper in bulk, but one troop worked around it by having a "troop" menu based upon what the patrol brought to the PLC. But I cannot think of any other way.

 

NYLT isn't necessary to make the switch. Is it helpful, esp is the SM is on board, I would say yes based upon my experiences with BA22 and JLTC. But it isn't necessary.

 

One thing mentioned is the following:

 

You've heard the saying, "If it ain't broke, why fix it?" You have to show people how what they have isn't working (why they need to change), which if they've put a lot of effort into the program already they're not going to want to hear, so you have to be very diplomatic about it (truthful, but very kind, so kind that they actually want you to keep telling them more instead of shutting you out).

 

So how to you tell a unit with 10-15 Eagles a year that they got it wrong?

 

Do I use their Eagle Retention Rates, i.e. how many Eagles stay involved once they get Eagle?

 

Do I use the number of folks from their unit that are in the OA?

 

Do I describe the experiences of one of their Scouts going through the Ordeal who Eagled shortly thereafter ( that was not a pretty sight.)

 

The particular unit I know of is kinda standoffish. They have an active program and do lots of activities, but it is not boy led, and focuses on advancement. Lots of helicopter parents who only care about their son getting Eagle. And few of their Eagles stay in the troop after their ECOH on Scout Sunday each year.

[Venividi 35]

- The nuances of what makes patrol method work are not understood

 

Put using ad-hoc patrols in this category. Both scouts and scouters think it logical to combine patrols on a campout to have enough scouts to make a useful patrol. Not considering the subtle benefit of long term interaction and reliance on fellow patrol members. Analogy: Pick up ball game compared to an intramural team. both are fun, both help individuals improve ball skills; but the second one results in a team that works very well together because they know each others capabilities, and by extention, dependency and trust.

 

- Unit Priorities are different (Unit's focus may be advancement, which is an individual activity rather than a patrol activity)

 

If unit leadership and parents focus is on the measure (i.e., advancement), then use of the patrol method gets compromised because patrol method is typically not used as a component of that measure.

 

- Need for more focus on program

A unit program that provides increasing level of challenges that are fun and interesting, with inter-patrol competions, provide a)the enticement for higher percentage of patrol member participation, and b) a dependency on fellow patrol members to meet the challenge and win the competition. Patrol members then put positive peer pressure on each other.(This message has been edited by venividi)

[Venividi 35]

> So how to you tell a unit with 10-15 Eagles a year that they got it wrong?

 

You don't. Lead a discussion of the trade offs between various ways that patrol method may get implemented, and how each relates to the aims. Determining priorities within an individual unit is not in the purview of an instructor. It may be something that a wise unit commissioner might influence over time. Also, unit culture may change as different familes join/leave. But beyond that, its their choice as to the level of PM, etc that they implement. Not something that you can force.

[Tampa Turtle 1011]

Great discussion. Great point on ad-hoc patrols. If you think of it it is usually because an adult doesn't want to haul another patrol box or something for a 2 or 3 guys. They almost never work or are fun. I suppose it might be different if the boys came up with the idea themselves.

[Basementdweller 608]

What is "Wrong"

 

Scouting is many different things to different people.

 

To some it is only about the eagle chase. To others it is a growing and learning experience for the youth. Others it is only about camping and outdoors. Others it is a social club.

 

None are right or wrong and while we might not like what others are doing if the troop is not losing members then it is providing what it's customers want.

 

The next question is "Who are their Customers?" Boys or Parents.