thriftyscout Posted November 27, 2010 Share Posted November 27, 2010 Several commenters on the 300 feet thread mentioned independent Patrol Outings. I have heard this can be a BSA sanctioned event but I don't see how that is possible. My understanding is that there must be a Tour Permit to be BSA sanctioned and any Tour Permit Application I have seen requires two deep leadership at least 21 etc. etc. I don't see where there is anything to stop a group of older Scouts from going on an outing independent of adults, but I question how it could be BSA sanctioned. I would appreciate a little more information on how a Patrol would set this up as a BSA sanctioned event. I think it is a great idea, but would like more information before proposing it to our Scouts and Committee. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle92 Posted November 27, 2010 Share Posted November 27, 2010 From the online version of the Guide to Safe Scouting (G2SS) http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/GSS/gss01.aspx#c Leadership Requirements for Trips and Outings 1. Two-deep leadership: Two registered adult leaders, or one registered leader and a parent of a participating Scout or other adult, one of whom must be at least 21 years of age or older, are required for all trips or outings. There are a few instances, such as patrol activities, when no adult leadership is required. (emphasis mine) Coed overnight activities, even those including parent and child, require male and female adult leaders, both of whom must be 21 years of age or older, and one of whom must be a registered member of the BSA. Yes tour permits say that "Boy Scouts of America policy requires at least two adult leaders on all camping trips and tours." But look at the dates on the form, 2009. If you look at the printed version of the G2SS, it states, Get the Latest Information! The online version of the Guide to Safe Scouting is updated quarterly. So the online version of the G2SS was last updated this year. Also if memory serves, older forms of the Tour permits stated a patrol could go out without adults. As I stated over there, there was a nasty rumor that national was going away with the patrol outing. Apparently the Health and Safety folks started looking at removing the patrol outing exemption in 2008 after an incident in which a summer camp left a bunch of scouts out by themselves. Bug difference between an organized patrol that the SM knows going out with his/her approval, and a bunch of scouts who just met doing the same. Even the troop created for my Canadian adventure met regularly, trained, and was organized by patrols. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPL1Warwick Posted November 27, 2010 Share Posted November 27, 2010 I didnt know that Eagle92, thank you maybe my patrols can do more things without adults Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thriftyscout Posted November 27, 2010 Author Share Posted November 27, 2010 Thanks Eagle 92 that should be enough to broach the subject locally. So what is a typical Patrol Outing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle92 Posted November 27, 2010 Share Posted November 27, 2010 Folks, A few things 1) I did something stupid, I asked for clarification on this topic at Myscouting.org. A wise poster here has stated ' be careful what you ask for from national." and I have heard that national was thinking about doing away with it. 2) The SM has to approve of the activity. Also the parents will need to be OK with it too, and that may be a hard sell. 3) I admit I've never done a patrol only activity without an adult. When I was a PL, I only did one activity, and had to have 1 adult with us (pre YPT, yes I am old). closest thing was backpacking 2.5-3 miles on a scout reservation away from adults with my Brownsea 22 Patrol (Brownsea was the original NYLT course, and I am a Cocky Curlew) We did have older scouts about 1/2 mile away, and another patrol 1 mile away. I had a hard time scheduling the hike, having to deal with multiple school schedules and the troop schedule. the troop was very active and gave the patrols a lot of freedom. 4)Patrol outings can include hikes, camp outs, field trips; anything except the regular patrol meeting and shopping trip. Question do patrols have patrol meetings outside of the 'patrol corners" of their troop meetings? I'll be honest once I joined the Leadership Corps, what is approximately the Venture patrol today, we didn't really meet outside of the patrol corners. he could get business done in the 10-15 minutes we had, and we didn't do the group shopping, placing it all on one person for some trips, eating as guests of the patrols on other as the case may be. EDITED: You really need to PM KUDU as he is the Patrol Method expert. Some say Green Bar Bill was his SM (This message has been edited by Eagle92) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knot Head Posted November 27, 2010 Share Posted November 27, 2010 When we have done overnight patrol activities we have two deep adult leadership. Depending on the ages in the patrol you can adjust your level of "oversight". As an example at Philmont the three adults always hiked in the back, We had a map but when they took a wrong turn we kept silent and hoped they'd figure it out sooner rather than later. During the "after action" phase of the wrong turn we'd ask questions to help them see what they did wrong. Both times it was using the map and not map + compass. It happened twice, was caught after about 1/2 mile and then never again. On patrol backpacks (which are great fun, kinda like mimi-Philmonts) we hang at the back. I went on one patrol outing with a patrol that had been to Philmont. They showed us the route and we gave them a 15 minute head start. We go to camp (12 miles) a good bit after they did and camped off to the side to give them some space. We planned to keep to ourselves but they insisted we come hang at their campfire (which did make us feel pretty good). Patrol backpacking, canoeing, fishing trips (or any good camping based activity) are great bonding experiences for a patrol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle92 Posted November 27, 2010 Share Posted November 27, 2010 One of the things my troop did was give patrols some freedom. When we could we camped away from each other, do their own activities for a while, etc. Depending upon the trip, the older scouts would go do their own thing with minimal to no adults around. By minimal I mean a 18-20 y.o. ASM who was still considered "one of the guys" by the older scouts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loneranger Posted November 27, 2010 Share Posted November 27, 2010 Sad, what a bunch of nancy's. When I went to Philmont in '68, my patrol and all the patrols in our dual council contingent had ONE adult. ONE. As my patrol trek progressed, our adult became more absent. He allowed us to do an overnight backpack up Mt. Baldy without him. Side hikes, bush-wacking no problem. We had the outdoor skills, it was time to let us strike out on our own. Adventure. We encountered a bear nosing in our tent, walked next to a rattlesnake, survived a bad lightning storm. Some adventure. My son is leaving Boy Scouts. He hunts and backpacks but he can't do that in scouts without all the "risk manager" adults. Scouting has lost the principle that in teaching boys to be men, you have to allow them to become men. If you boys get lost in the woods and a young man comes to your rescue that might be my young man. I'd listen to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thriftyscout Posted November 27, 2010 Author Share Posted November 27, 2010 I'm surprised that with all the complaints about how limited Scouting has become that many, if not most, units don't seem to be operating to the extent of those limits. How much of "vintage" Scouting is actually against today's rules? It's like complaining about the lifeguard when the reality is that we are afraid of the water. As I see it, today's leader training does a poor job of explaining the full potential of Scouting. I may be singing a different tune if I'm told there is no way to get a tour permit for a patrol outing but it looks like it is allowable under G2SS. I may have a tougher sell with the parents but that is not the fault of Scouting. I'm still waiting to hear of a Troop doing this sort of outing with a tour permit. It would be interesting to hear what others are doing and what a typical patrol outing might be. Has anyone been turned down for a tour permit on a patrol outing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle92 Posted November 27, 2010 Share Posted November 27, 2010 Thrift, My understanding is that a tour permit is for the UNIT'S planning purposes, not the patrols. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosetracker Posted November 27, 2010 Share Posted November 27, 2010 The tour permit is needed for BSA Insurance, for the outing, not for planning purposes. This I think is an "Ask your council.." But, it was discussed somewhere recently what I got from it was.. 1) don't try to set you Tour Permit using the electronic Tour Permit, because it is not set up to do so, it will check for age of the leader & throw it out... So use the old paper tour Permit. 2) Put the PL signature as leader. 3) Get the SM signature. 4) Somewhere on the form you state it is a Patrol outing. (Someone stated you need Parents permission, but I don't know where that requirement is stated, and if you need to acknowledge it with the tour permit. I know it is sound advise, but just don't know where it is stated in the rules.) I would though ask the person at your council if they have dealt with them before, rather then just send in a form cold.. (Unless you are hoping they don't notice and you can sneak it through.) I have never done one, so this is just what I read elsewhere, and others can correct or add to it as they see fit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thriftyscout Posted November 27, 2010 Author Share Posted November 27, 2010 Thanks, I found the recent thread. Sounds like a definite maybe... depends upon your Council. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beavah Posted November 28, 2010 Share Posted November 28, 2010 The tour permit is needed for BSA Insurance, for the outing, not for planning purposes. This statement is FALSE. But like all of the many "insurance rumors", it does seem to get passed around a lot. Tour permits are not required for insurance coverage. Insurance coverage attaches any time you or the CO gets sued under some theory of liability for anything involving scouting or scout activities. Period. No paperwork is required, no uniforms are required, memorizing and following every jot and tiddle of G2SS is not required. Only paying the unit annual registration. A Tour Permit is just a helpful planning document.... Helpful for you, and helpful for the district/council. Tour permits are not required for meetings, yet if a lad gets hurt at a meeting through negligence, or yeh accidentally smash the window of someone's car with a baseball at a meeting, insurance covers. Many councils neither require nor accept tour permits for outings within their council service area, eh? Yet insurance still covers on those outings and events. In short almost any time anyone tells you that "BSA insurance won't cover" they are spreading an urban legend and yeh should at least ignore them, if not correct them. Most of the time they've just got the urban legend bug, but sometimes it's people who think they need to make stuff up to sound authoritative. So now, goin' back to the original question, yes by all means run patrol outings! Whatever your patrols can dream up. Weekend backpack trips, hikes, geocaching, ski trips, patrol shoots at da camp or local sportsmans club, on and on. Look over their plans, review for safety and experience of the kids, and have at it. Easiest beginning steps for adult-less outings is to start with a simple overnight campout or a day hike. Somethin' that the boys are clearly familiar with and comfortable with, in decent weather. It will be a new adventure just being on their own. And that's the key, eh? Make sure they have all the other things down so that the only new component is being on their own. Another thing to try is to go somewhere the patrols can hike in different directions and send each patrol off on it's own. Yah, sure, the patrols can do this outside of scouting, but why would we give it up? By doing it within scouting, we make scouting special for the boys and we get the chance to give advice and consent on their plans. As for fillin' out da paperwork if your council requests it, I think yeh fill out the tour permit as usual, eh? List the adult(s) who approved the boys' plans, list the drivers, etc. Beavah(This message has been edited by Beavah) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FScouter Posted November 28, 2010 Share Posted November 28, 2010 "The tour permit is needed for BSA Insurance, for the outing, not for planning purposes." That's like saying you must carry your driver license to be covered by car insurance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosetracker Posted November 28, 2010 Share Posted November 28, 2010 Really? This was hammered into us from our old COR who was very in active in scouts from childhood, and very powerful in our Council, and had been a DE years back in a different state. Our council always did have a policy that you need the tour permit unless meeting at your normal weekly meeting place, or within the city/town of you meeting area. Our COR insisted that we put in a tour permit for any in-town event that was not at the normal meeting place, or normal meeting time.. Why? Because she did not believe the Insurance was covered if we did not do the Tour Permit every time we met as a scouting unit when not in our weekly scheduled meeting. Council tried to tell us we did not need it for in-town events, but when stating our COR required it and why, they never stated the Tour Permit was not for the purpose of insurance. They just would then process the paper work. My son at the last meeting again tried to discuss only doing tour permits for out-of-town events per the Council rules.. Our new COR will hear nothing of it.. We must guarantee that we are being covered by insurance for every event.. So, do you know where the proof the tour permit is NOT for insurance purposes is in writing? It is something I am sure my son would love to have. Problem is that our SM insists the scouts can not possibly know if they can go on an event until the Troop meeting before the event. So my son only can do a tour permit at the earliest around 10pm on the Thursday night when the event will start either that Friday night or Saturday morning.. Makes the tour permit for him the worse part of his job. The fewer he has to do, the happier he will be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now