Chartered Oraganizations/Chartered Organization Reps

[Beavah 205]

I have asked to IH for someone who could act as an adviser to us on how to be more a part of the parish community. She pointed us to our Tiger Cub Den Leader, one of our two families that are members of the parish.

 

Yah, tryin' to troubleshoot this a bit for yeh, but I'm confused, SP.

 

Yeh said your CO is a Catholic parish, but then yeh mention in the quote that your IH is a "she". Did I get that right?

 

In da Catholic units I know that would be ... odd. Someone who knows the church well might be able to say better, but as I understand it the IH of a Catholic parish is the pastor, and he's a he . He's also da only fellow who can legally sign the paperwork. So it might be that yeh need to find the real IH . My understanding is that like most pastors, da Catholic clergy is pretty overworked, underpaid, underappreciated and spread thin. So yeh probably can't expect 'em to do too much.

 

Some thoughts for yeh...

 

Consider whether the elementary school principal or one of school teachers from da parish school could/should be COR. They're often more in tune with youth work and might have more time and willingness to engage with yeh. The elementary school might also have a gym teacher / coach, and he or she might make a good contact, if not as COR then as an added MC. Odds are yeh also have one of the Knights (can never remember what they're called... Malta or Columbus or somethin') mens' groups. They're a bit hit or miss in our neck of da woods, but I understand that their national leadership is pushin' 'em toward being more heavily involved in youth work, includin' Scouting. The Knights youth outreach person could also make a good COR, and plug yeh into that resource as well as the parish.

 

Yeh might not get to ScoutNut's level of relationship, but yeh can do pretty well if yeh just find a few key people who have da time and commitment to interface with yeh. A conversation with the pastor about who he'd like/suggest might be a good way to start. Your DE or UC could/should help.

 

Beavah

 

[Oak Tree 15]

I'm with SeattlePioneer on the base premise here, which is that the forum often directs people with problems to go talk to their CO, despite the fact that it's a minority of the time that the CO would be a meaningful place to go.

 

We have a good relationship with our CO. The church gives us space, signs all our forms, sometimes helps out with religious awards, works with us on Scout Sunday, lets us do service projects for them. Even so, I don't think I'd ever expect to go to the COR or CO with a problem like not being able to find a Cubmaster. In fact, I'm hard-pressed to think of a situation where I'd go to the CO for any leadership issues. I could conjure up one, but I've been around the units for over a decade and it's never happened that I'm aware of.

 

So we have a relatively engaged CO, and we would not normally go them with this type of issue. Most units seem to have less involved COs, and so they wouldn't go to them. So most of the time I do find the advice to go talk to your COR or your IH to feel like the official but useless line. (or your unit commissioner, but that's another story).

[shortridge 184]

"I'm with SeattlePioneer on the base premise here, which is that the forum often directs people with problems to go talk to their CO, despite the fact that it's a minority of the time that the CO would be a meaningful place to go."

 

That doesn't change the fact that it's the right place to go.

 

Telling people to go to the DE - many newbies' first response to a problem, as they don't understand the Scouting structure - will just frustrate everyone and waste time.

 

Telling people to go to the UC may be less productive than going to the CO. At least every unit has a COR on paper. How many times have we heard of nonexistent UCs here?

 

After that, who else is left? You want everyone with a complaint about unit leadership to call the council offices or the district chairman? Just because the Scouting-CO structure is broken doesn't mean it can't be repaired.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

[UCEagle72 10]

Telling people to go to the UC may be less productive than going to the CO. At least every unit has a COR on paper. How many times have we heard of nonexistent UCs here?

 

While this may be true in some locations - we have worked very hard to ensure that is not the case here!

 

I have made sure that all our unit leaders know who their Unit Commissioner is -- and I frequently check -- Roundtables, Camporees, etc. -- just to make sure our Commissioners are there to assist.

 

Plus, we have developed a system for Units to be able to check that information:

http://www.rbb.me/who.html

 

And any unit currently listed as "Not Assigned" is handled by me (as DC) -- and they are each contacted once or twice a month just to ensure they are having no issues.

 

But, we have 40 registered unit commissioners -- and conduct a continuous recruiting campaign. We currently have three "prospects" and two leaders who have committed to being a unit commissioner, but cannot start that position until June. Plus, we have added 5 new active Commissioners in the last two months.

 

(We have more than 12,000 scouts and scouters in our district, so yes, we have a lot of people we can recruit from -- but we also actively contact NESA members, adult OA members, and former Scouters to see if we can get them to be active.)

 

We only have three commissioners with more than 2 units (including myself) and our goal is that by Dec 31 we have 0 commissioners with more than two units.

 

And just to show how well this is working - we already have 42% of our "traditional units" (Packs, Troops, Teams, Crews, Ships) that have 6 or more contacts in the Unit Visit Tracking System (UVTS) -- and we should reach the District JTE Gold level for Unit Contacts (50%) this month. (BTW - our goal is 10+ contacts for 100% of our units.)

 

[SeattlePioneer 144]

Congratulations on a fine Commissioner program, UC Eagle!

[Eagledad 2788]

>>In answer to your question you either live in a council that is in perfect working order, which I highly doubt, or you base your statement on your own unit or very limited exposure to other units. The truth is most units want a cordial relationship with their CO just as long as the CO allows them total control in running the program and "interfers" as little as possible.

[Lisabob 13]

Oak Tree has a good point, but here's the problem I see with that line of thinking. While it is true that most of the time, units with disengaged COs can probably handle most problems on their own, every once in a while something occurs where the CO is actually going to have to be involved - or at least, be aware of the problem (scandal, meltdown, financial crisis, serious complaints, etc.). If that's the first time the CO puts your names and faces together in their mind, then you have a real problem. You have to have some kind of relationship, even if it is only a vaguely positive warm & fuzzy feeling (maybe along the lines of "oh yes, we sponsor a scout unit - nope, don't know the leaders very well, but they report in occasionally and seem like they're on the up and up").

 

Without that base relationship or generally positive awareness, the CO is much more likely to just dump the unit, or take unnecessarily harsh steps, when a problem arises. Better to lay some groundwork in advance, really.

 

Having said all that - maybe the advice to people who post here should be two-pronged: long term, build your CO relationship; short term, do X to address the immediate problem.

 

 

[Hawkrod 10]

Lisabob makes an excellent point. One that has become all too commonly missed. I am fortunate in the fact that our CO BOD is very involved and is seeing what goes on first hand. Members of our BOD will occassionally drop in on meetings and expects a monthly report. Most CO's won't go that far but I am working with several COR's in our district to get them to better understand their part in this and help them improve Scouting in our community. We do have some people who would rather see things remain the way they are both because it is easier and also because they "have done it that way forever" but in this day and age we need every bit of support we can get and if getting the CO involved gets the program back to the forefront then it will benefit all of scouting not just that unit. An active CO promotes their units among other like minded members of the community and through this we are seeing more youth interested in the units and more community involvement. I will admit to being biased but it has worked well for us and also for the units that our unit has mentored.

[BadenP 93]

Barry

 

Thank you as your last post, it just goes to prove my point. Hands off is the way most unit leaders like it and the flip side of that is their relationship with their CO is minimal at best. As long as no major problem comes up this relationship works fine, but a unit with a history of problems this type of relationship can be disasterous. Infighting among leaders, money problems, leaders not following YPT, are just a few examples where the CO might have to step in as it is their reputation on the line as well as the units.

[Beavah 205]

Yah, da problem is one of adult behavior, eh?

 

We could wish that most folks would realize, as we try to teach the scouts, that it's up to them to behave like responsible and reasonable human beings and resolve their own disputes equitably among themselves, eh?

 

But when adults start bashin' each other around the head, one or both or multiple sides want to win, and they try to do that by running off to mommy and daddy to complain about what Johnny fellow adult did. Mommy and daddy being the "Ultimate Authority" to appeal to to get their way.

 

Da proper advice on da forums is probably the same as da proper role of a UC, and that's to try to get 'em to understand where da other side is coming from and get 'em to sit back down and work their problems out like adults, eh? It's probably not to give in to their desire to find an authority figure to take their side so they can win in da game of bashing their fellow adults.

 

But if they insist on goin' there, the truth is that da authority figure is the CO. It's not the DE, the SE, or any of the commissioner corps. It's not whomever they managed to get on da phone in Irving. The CO is their "employer". It's the parish pastor or the head of the VFW post or whatnot that is the Authority. "But I don't know him!" "But they're not involved!" Yah, they're not directly involved because they expect yeh to behave like rational adults and be able to resolve your disputes on your own. There should be a sense of barrier there, eh? It should be a big deal to have to approach the IH or COR with somethin' as petty as a scouting dispute. So directing 'em to the proper authority is honest, eh? And if it also gives 'em pause to rethink things, then I'm not sure that's a bad thing.

 

----

Aside to UCEagle72... much as I think UC visits are fine and havin' good UC assignments are fine, da struggle I have with the "numbers emphasis" on such things is that generally speakin' the quality of commissioners and commish contact is pretty low. Yah, yah, I know Irving loves da numbers games. But that push to fill slots like as not means that some Cub Scouter becomes UC for a crew, and doesn't know beans from turnips. I'm curious how you're addressin' da quality issue, or if you're even lookin' at it. UCs are only effective if they have some real depth of knowledge and wisdom beyond da trainin' courses. Probably should be spun off...

----

 

Beavah

 

[Eagledad 2788]

>>Hands off is the way most unit leaders like it and the flip side of that is their relationship with their CO is minimal at best.

[Oak Tree 15]

My last post may have been a bit one-sided. I think Lisabob captures my actual position.

 

I don't object to advice that says "depending on your CO, you might want to run this by them", or something like that. The advice statements that I find less useful are the ones that presume the CO is taking an active role in the leadership of the pack. Or as SeattlePioneer puts it, "No harm in asking about where the chartered organization is".

 

Yes, there are times when the official answer has to be the one you give. If you want to remove a CC, you have to go to the CO.

 

And as Beavah points out, advice to go to the DE or the SE isn't right, either. Normally I expect adult leaders to be able to work things out amongst themselves. I would presume that pastors don't normally want to hear about how hard it is to find a fourth-grade Sunday school teacher, or how the adults in the choir can't get along, or how the music committee can't agree on who the new pianist should be.

[SeattlePioneer 144]

At present I have a Cub Scout pack chartered by Catholic Church that has minimal contact with the CO. Only two Cub Scouts are from families that are church members.

 

What I would LIKE:

 

I'd like the Cub Pack to be a part of the parish community like the church children's sports teams are. I would like to find ways of encouraging more parish families to join Cub Scouts. Plenty join the sports programs --- few Cub Scouts.

 

I'd like a Charetered Organization Rep who 1) is a capable person 2) has a history of Scouting 3) will provide some ongoing leadership and oversight for the pack to help it keep going 4) will be a part of the church leadership structure 5) will develope a measure of expertise and commitment to doing the COR job properly 6) be a point person to help publicize the Cub Scout program within the parish and parish school.

 

 

[Beavah 205]

Yah, OK SP, that's somethin' to work with. Yeh might also want to post this to da Catholic Scouting email group.

 

I think there's a job description for COR on da National Catholic Committee on Scouting web site that yeh can use to seed a conversation with your pastor. Thing is, like Oak Tree says, it helps if yeh come with a solution as well as a problem, like some names in mind. The pastor can help with your #1 and 4, but probably isn't goin' to know who has scouting history or experience and will turn to you for that, just like he would turn to da choir director for who has experience with da organ.

 

In most churches, contacts and opportunities don't go through the pastor, they are more or less informal through a network of core volunteers. So I'd think if yeh want to be promoted like the sports teams, yeh probably just need to find out from someone how those are promoted. Are there info nights? Fliers sent home with da school kids? Parish newsletter announcements? Yeh might ask da school or parish secretary. They always know everything. . I have to believe that if yeh just ask those folks to be included they'd welcome you, and provide free backpack mail and bulletin boards and time at da sports promo, but they don't know enough to do it for yeh.

 

Then yeh find da person who seems most helpful, and yeh register 'em as an MC and make parish interfacing their job

 

Beavah

 

[SR540Beaver 116]

It's been a while since I looked, but I believe the model goes something like this. A CO decides that they would like to have a scout unit as part of their outreach and contacts the council who dispatched the DE to extoll the virutes of hosting a unit. Or, a DE makes calls on prospective CO's and extolls the virtues of having a scout unit as part of their community outreach. The CO goes about recruiting adult leadership who go about recruiting boys and a new unit is up and running and a wonderful relationship ensues and the DE keeps his job for adding another unit.....if he hits his FOS goal.

 

How many have actually seen this happen on a regular basis?

 

Me neither.

 

Our pack had a strange arrangement. Our CO was a church who let the dens meet in an outdoor annex used for Sunday School. We could not however use their multi-purpose sanctuary/gym for pack meetings. We drew kids from three different schools and we rotated our monthly pack meetings between them. Two of the schools were good to deal with, one wasn't. They would forget to have the doors unlocked for us and always had complaints that the Cubs were going donw the hallways, into the rooms and tearing things up. Strange as we had adults posted at the door who wouldn't let it happen. Still, we go the blame. I served as CC and trying to track down the COR for adult application signatures and the IH for recharter was a feat unto itself. I ended up having to go to the church one Sunday morning to cathc the Pastor to get the recharter signed. There was no relationship beyond, "we provide you room to meet" despite our best efforts.

 

The first troop we crossed to had a COR who was a long time scouter, a couple of Eagle Scout sons and his wife was a Council professional. Hands off. Within six months of joining the troop, the treasurer (SM's wife) literally threw books at the CC (one of us new parents) for "ruining their troop and trying to take over." A special meeting was called with the UC and the COR to iron out the issues. The COR's take was that he was offended that he got dragged int othis and he just wanted everyone to get along from this point forward. We left.

 

We started a "Friends of Troop xxx" charter to keep our unwelcome kids in scouting. It feel to me to go in search of a charter. Evidently the DE had already hit his membership and FOS numbers, because he was no help. Once I found a CO willing to take us, the DE showed up for one meeting to get the paperwork signed. The CO was small and struggling as much as we were. They provided us room, we did some service projects for them, but they basically didn't want to be involved. It lasted about a year.

 

The troop I'm in now has been at their CO for over 45 years. We have a strong troop and program. When I first joined in 2005, I don't believe we had and leaders or youth from the CO. We now do. The gentleman who has been our COR up until last week is a staff member who had the job assigned to him some years ago against his will. He has stated to others that he does not like children and he does not like scouting. While we do have supporters in the church and we do try to maintain a good relationship with them thru service projects and such, our COR has tried to make life difficult at every turn. Any time something gets broken, it was the scouts who did it. We meet in the basement and the boys know the upstairs are off limits. He complains all the time about scouts seen loitering upstairs in the dark. On occasion when the janitor doesn't come down and unlock the doors for us, the senior leadership will go looking for him. Ever so often he complains about our two trailers taking up "prime" parking spots in the parking loty and wants them relocated to the back of the property. The trailers are underneath a light in plain view of a major road and chained to the light post. When this item comes up, our SM and CC take an inventory of the trailers contents along with many news clipping of stolen trailers to the Church Board and show them what their insurance would be replacing if we moved the trailers to a dark parking lot behind the building. Each time the Board rubs their chin and decides to leave them where they are. To try to please the COR, we decided to move the trailers to the least two used spaces in the lot, but it required us to sink a big metal post in to the parking lot by the curb for us to chain the trailers to. The COR balked at that because, "it would endanger the children of the church". Do what? I honestly think he has been trying to build a case to get rid of us. He finally resigned last week after accusing a scout and his mother of stealing a stuffed animal from the prayer room. Our members leave thru an outside stair case from the basement. They don't exit thru the church. Thank the lord, the IH has stepped in temporarily to fill in as COR until they find someone else. He is very pro-Scouting. Perhaps things will turn around and the relationship will get better. lord knows the troop wants it to.