Tour Permits & Insurance connection..

[moosetracker]

In order not to hijack the Patrol outing Thread, which is interesting in itself. I needed to continue the discussion on the Tour Permit and if it is or is not needed for insurance..

Up front the arguments Beavah and others made do make sense, but in order for my son to argue it at the committee meeting, he needed proof.. If not proof of an official statement that a tour permit is not need for insurance, an official statement of what the purpose of the tour permit is for that states what Beavah & others said but minus any mention of insurance..

My internet search pulled up may council referring to something called the Risk Management Notebook.. Unfortunately the text in that promotes the so called myth that the tour permit is tied to you being able to make a claim using the BSA insurance..

Although I could find reference to it and virtually the same information at numerous councils. I was unable to find the official Risk Management Notebook.. So the question is, How official is this? If official, why would the words in it not mean what they seem to state to me.. You need the tour permit to be insured through the BSA? And does anyone know how I can find the Risk Management Notebook (not just an excerpt from it) on the internet

 

(start of quote from Risk Management Notebook : Section 28)

Why file a tour permit?

 

The single highest number of injuries and fatalities in the United States and Scouting are caused by motor vehicle accidents.

A tour permit that has been filed with and approved by the local Scout Council prior to the activity registers the activity as an official Scouting activity. BSA's insurance coverage only applies to official Scouting activities.

 

Reinforces driver requirements and insurance requirements and encourages routine maintenance checks on vehicles prior to the trip.

What is the purpose of tour permits?

 

Provide the Scout executive with information regarding unit outings and trips - i.e. - a tour permit helps you know "what is going on".

Reinforces leader requirements, especially in regards to Youth Protection, transportation, and aquatic activities. Make sure current forms are used.

Can provide information necessary to locate a pack, troop or post if an emergency arises and lets the council know point of contact when an emergency situation develops.

In summary tour permits re-enforce planning, safety, and two-deep leadership.

 

(This ends the quote from the Risk Management Notebook)

 

 

[Frank17]

As an attorney, I will tell you the only document that really makes any difference is the insurance certificate itself. That is what will be used to determine coverage, not the G2SS, risk management notebook, or other scouting document.

 

I checked our Troop's policy. It provides coverage for any "Covered Activity" -

The "Covered Activity" is any official scouting or leaning for life activity that occurs 1) at the regular meeting place, or 2) while traveling to an approved activity somewhere else, or 3) at a remote location with a "Covered Activity". (more doublespeak). The "official scouting activity" is the tricky part. Under the policy definitions section, it states that coverage is provided for events recognized by the local council. So, presumably, if council recognizes it as a sanctioned activity (either through tour permits or other means), then you have coverage. I do not know how patrol activities are viewed in your council, but permits are required in our council for ANY activity that occurs at other than the regular meeting place. Thus, we do tour permits for everything.

 

BTW, this was our Troop / council insurance policy. I imagine it differs from region to region.(This message has been edited by frank17)

[Beavah]

LOL. Yah, yeh need to learn to read thinks like an attorney or risk manager, moosetracker.

 

I think if yeh look at the archives, there are a few dozen threads on the topic. But what the hey?

 

The Risk Management notebook, just like da G2SS or the SM Handbook or whatnot is an internal BSA document (actually more of a compilation of stuff). It doesn't have anything to do with insurance, nor does it establish a standard of care for liability purposes. It's just a council level set of materials. Yeh can go to your council and ask to see it, mostly boring stuff, but it won't answer your insurance question.

 

Da part you quote is correct, however. BSA insurance (obviously) only applies to scouting events. And yep, a tour permit is evidence that an event is a scouting event. All that is true.

 

However, a Tour Permit is not required to make something a scouting event, as demonstrated by scout meetings and your council that doesn't require tour permits for local events. Even without a tour permit, those are still scouting events, eh? And because they are scouting events, BSA insurance attaches. In fact, many councils don't require tour permits within their service area, which might take up half a state. A scouting event is a scouting event by being a scouting event. And insurance attaches to any scouting event by default.

 

Yeh see, insurance is governed by a contract, eh? But it's also a regulated industry. In all states, the presumption is that insurance covers. That's the "default". In fact most states have severe penalties for "bad faith" on the part of insurers - far worse penalties than the cost of just living up to their obligations. In order for insurance not to cover, the insurer must demonstrate through some reasonably high level of evidence that the insurance contract does not apply to the case. Nothing else. Not G2SS, not uniforms, not tour permits - those are just internal documents.

 

Your COR can ask your council business manager to see a copy of the first tier master contract for insurance. It's a pretty ordinary general liability policy, eh? And general liability policies are a "stock" item in da industry.

 

Now, a few things on the unauthorized activity list (like skydiving) are exclusions on the master contract, and indeed are exclusions on almost all "stock" general liability policies. So if yeh hop in your experimental aircraft and take the lads skydiving on your own then insurance coverage from da BSA might be a problem. Even if you have a Tour Permit! It used to be that was true for all of the unauthorized activities, but then they started adding silly stuff like simulated firearms and water drinking contests, which are not insurance exclusions.

 

The other thing that is never covered by insurance is deliberate acts of harm, eh? If yeh deliberately hurt a child or deliberately place a child in a situation intending the kid to be harmed, then insurance is out. For you. It would still cover da CO.

 

That's how it works, eh? Beyond that, nobody will ever give yeh a straight answer about coverage for individual cases, especially across state lines. Odds are your SE and council business manager will get cagey too. Just because that gets into the realm of offering legal opinion rather than general thoughts about how things work or what the contract says. And neither this post nor anything furry flat-tailed big-toothed critters tell yeh on the internet should ever be considered legal opinion or advice. Same with da office folks in your council.

 

If this is really eating at yeh, have your COR call your SE or your council business manager and ask to see a copy of the first-tier master contract, or sit with da DE on a call to national H&S and have 'em explain how in general you are still covered even though your council doesn't make you file a tour permit.

 

However, as stated elsewhere, your CO can always require you to fill out a TP for everything. Or sing Jingle Bells as a group before every December outing for that matter .

 

B

 

Edited to add: I believe Frank17 is quotin' the language from the HSR accident insurance policy, not the BSA general liability policy. But he's right on da general principle of course.(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Twocubdad]

"A tour permit that has been filed with and approved by the local Scout Council prior to the activity registers the activity as an official Scouting activity. BSA's insurance coverage only applies to official Scouting activities."

 

Which proves BSA can write policies with great precision when it is in its interest to do so. The way this is written encourages you to add 2 + 2, but the statment never says it equals four. Read it carefully. If the assumption were true, don't you think they would conclude the statement with, "Activities not registered by an approved tour permit will not be covered."

 

The truth is, having the tour permit is for your benefit. It is your evidence the activity is an "official scouting activity."

 

Example:

 

Your PLC decides to plan a father-son hunting trip. Hopefully, all the cross-checks of the permitting process will point out the policy violations in this and stop it before it happens. But let's say a tour permit is filed and approved by council. (Here, the scout shop clerk used to approve permits and NEVER read them. Once I joked that I could submit a permit listing Hell as the distination and she would rubber stamp it. She thought about it for a second and agreed.)

 

So we have eight scouts and eight dads in the woods, wearing cammo hunting gear. Something happens and someone sues. Da Beav will explain that there are all sorts of procedural and evidential hurdles to get this through court or even to get the insurance to pay up. But by having a tour permit, the one issue you have solved is that this trip was an official troop activity, registered with council. Without the tour permit, the lawyers and claims adjusters will argue this was just a bunch of guys out hunting who all coincidentally are members of the same scout troop and are trying to reach in BSA's deep pockets to pay for their stupidity. The tour permit answers that.

 

Because the myth connecting tour permits and insurance coverage works in BSA's favor, I think they let it roll, if not out-right encourage it. If the false threat of losing insurance coverage is what it takes to get units to file permits, then it's a good thing, right?

 

The converse applies too. My soon-to-be-former outings chairman is somewhat of a flake and only pays attention to activities his son attends. A couple months ago we were loading up for a campout and I realized the outings guy wasn't there and we didn't have a permit for the weekend. What should I have done? Cancelled the activity and sent everyone home? Maybe I could have emailed or called the council office and left a voice mail stating for the record that we were going on a troop outing.

 

But I really didn't worry about it because there was clear evidence that this was an official troop activity -- the troop had all sorts of planning documents, agenda, sign-up sheets, PLC minutes relating to the activity; we were all in in uniform(not a requirement, but another point in our favor); we left from and returned to our scout hut; we were going to the council scout reservation for the weekend. Clearly, this was an official scout activity, tour permit or not. Yeah, without the tour permit I'm going to pay Frank or Beavah or one of their bretheren for a few more hour to make the point, but given the remote possibilities of that outcome, it was no big deal.(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

[Eagle92]

Whether or not the Tour Permit is needed for insurance or not, I'd file one as a CYA. Heck I did it as a chapter adviser, and if you look at the Tour permits, their is place to put OA bodies, i.e. Lodges and Chapters.

 

Again I do it to CMA.

[moosetracker]

Well it does eat at me for two reason..

 

1) Is my son would have to do the proving to make the arguement to our troop..

2) As District Training Chair, I would like my trainers to state fact, not fiction.. If I can work fact out of fiction. I was not present at the paperwork part of SM specifics this Fall, so I am unsure what they stated or did not state.

 

I would be very happy had I come up with this Notebook that many councils live by with this whole piece missing the sentence about the insurance.. It would have been in my mind an open & shut case.. But, with it included I don't feel comfortable going into a training session and stating "Your BSA has posted that Insurance is tied to the Tour Permit.. But I say they are lieing to you based on a conversation I have had on a forum with a furry flat-tailed big tooth critter"..

 

If it is a false statement, seems like us little pe-ons are not the ones spreading the falsehoods to give it teeth.. Rather, our Councils and National have documentated this falsehood in order to put teeth into the tour permit.. Now how much can I get my DE or anyone else in my council to help me debunk the myth, if they are the ones wanting it in place?

 

True Home Insurance won't pay if they find you burned down your own house.. But they also don't pay for flood, acts of God.. I question the car insurance commercials that state other insurances wont pay if the xmas tree falls off the roof of your car & causes damage, or you watch the silly jogger instead of the road and have an accident. But I do know there may be trouble with your car insurance if you let someone borrow your car and they get into an accident.. A young college student had this happen.. His insurance didn't pay, her insurance didn't pay, nor the the "friend" do the right thing and personnal pay for the damages.. Just left her with a car that was totalled.. Also I remember my mom falling in my house, her insurance thought it should be my home insurance, so refuesed & sent the medical claim to me, but my mom was using my home as permenant residence at the time, so we proved that and kicked it back to them.. My feeling is Insurance companies try to find reasons not to pay. I could see them pointing to the lack of proof that this was a scouting event and using it to get the wiggle room to get out of paying.

 

If you state your troop meets Monday night at Church A located in at address xyz.. You have written proof of the scouting activity at that location at that time. The fact my council doesn't force in-town events may prove what you say, but that is the whole reason our CO doesn't trust that, and wants to ensure we have insurance coverage by forcing us to do the Tour Permit in-town & out.

 

Well I will see what my DE will do for me in the spirit of offering correct information to those in our district.. But, although you make logical sense Beavah.. I just would feel wrong to change the information about tour permits to people taking a course, based on your statement that the BSA is writting a bunch of incorrect crap.. Until then I just can't risk that I am telling them something that could put them at risk one day. Better safe then sorry especially when you are gambling with other peoples risk.

[Beavah]

Hiya Moosetracker,

 

In terms of trainers, my advice would be that you tell the trainers to follow the training syllabus and not say anything more than that about insurance, eh?

 

I know that following the training syllabus is a kind of novel notion, but it does work OK. Certainly it's better than having every Tom, Dick, and Harry makin' something up about what they feel should be right about insurance.

 

Of course, if you're acting in a district or council capacity as you suggest, just get on the phone and call National H&S or do so with your DE. That seems a better way of goin' than using a random quote yeh got from some other internet document. Just remember da cagey bit; nobody wants to give legal advice across state lines. So ask your question directly: "Is a Tour Permit required for BSA general liability coverage to attach for a unit scouting activity?"

 

The answer is "No." In fact, we pay claims like that all the time. But Tour Permits are still worthwhile things to do for planning, program, CYA, make you feel good and official, whatever. That's why we have 'em.

 

Now, if your COR really wants proof of insurance, then he's usin' the wrong document. A Tour Permit isn't it. He wants to ask the council for a certificate of insurance listing the CO as "additional insured" for each event. That's the definitive document, not a tour permit.

 

All your other musings are just hard to comment on, eh? Yeh really don't have any idea why someone else's auto coverage "didn't pay". Might be as simple as the car owner didn't have collision coverage, or the homeowner's policy had an exclusion (as most do) for flood or acts of war. If yeh really feel insurers are slimy, then yeh know they could try to argue that something wasn't a scout outing even if you have a Tour Permit.

 

Da only thing yeh got wrong is the last bit. You don't need to prove that it was a scout activity for insurance to attach. The insurer needs to prove that it was not a scout activity. Such a claim can be refuted any number of ways.

 

Did yeh collect permission slips? Take payment? Use scout account money? Run two-deep? Did registered leaders supervise? Was it advertised as such? On a calendar approved by the committee? On and on.

 

Mostly, with da SM, CC and a bunch of kids and parents standing there saying "it was a scout outing", yeh won't find anybody likely to buy an insurer's argument that it really wasn't. And the penalties for such "bad faith" by insurers are severe.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Twocubdad]

Yeah, Roger what Beavah says about following the syllabus. And if some specifically asks the questions, answer honestly: "I've personally tried to research that question and have not been able to find a definitive answer in any of the BSA literature. But since you are going to file a tour permit for every activity, it's a moot point."

 

As for your son trying to make the point with the troop, it doesn't really matter. If your COR has said the troop will fill permits for all activities, that the end of the story. He gets to make that call for the unit, right, wrong or indifferent.

[moosetracker]

His beef is really filing a faulty Tour Permit..

 

.. Just having his and his fathers cars to put on the tour permit as drivers when neither are going.. (No one else will give him the info since the SM sees it as unneccessary.)

.. Stating parents are driving their own children to an event when that is not true..

.. Listing his father or him on the tour permit so they state someone with Hazardous weather is on the trip when neither are going.. (Since no one else will get trained)(One of them tries to be there, as they feel obligated, but life outside of scouts does happen.)

.. Guessing at who the leaders of the trip will be when he doesn't know.

.. Putting the tour permit in the night before the event in hopes some of the unknown will be filled in by then, but sometimes Leaders are still unknown.

 

 

They don't care that the info is not accurate. They don't care that no one has planned anything for the trip until the night before the trip. All they care about is putting something in so that they are covered by insurance.

 

Makes him a) want to do as few tour permits as possible because it makes him feel like a criminal (and considering that he is only 20 years old this is a heck of a position to put him in, and a heck of a thing to be insisting that he do.).. Therefore he would prefer at least not doing the in-town trips. Tour Permits are his most hated thing of the job, due to the uncooperative attitude by everyone to make it easier on him.

 

Why the COR, CC & SM all think filing a Tour Permit full of lies will ensure the insurance, while filing no Tour Permit will risk their insurance is logic I can not at all figure out.

 

As stated I don't know what the trainers did say as I was monitoring between cub specifics & Scout Specifics, that day. But, I do know that Paperwork is in SM Specifics & Baloo (not sure about CS Specifics.. SM Specifics reads like a book not a syllabus. Impossible to memorize & would take twice as long as recommended time to read, But you can at least make sure things are not brought up that are not in the syllabus.. Baloo & CS Specifics & IOLS are more like syllabus's.. But syllabus's give you guidelines and expect you to fill in, They wouldn't give the times suggestions they do if they didn't expect you to fill in. Both would take about 1/4 the time listed if you just read them, and really leave the participant feeling he didn't get anything worthwhile.. Luckily I don't do the training, I just set things up and depend on my trainers, Over time I hope to learn from them so that I can help out.

 

 

[ScoutNut]

I third what Beav, and 2Cub are saying.

 

BSA wants trainers to stick with the syllabus to help stop, or at least cut down on, "Urban Scouting Legends". As for insurance, and any other policies that varies by council, simply tell them WHAT YOUR COUNCIL REQUIRES. Also, let them know that THEIR CHARTER ORGANIZATION might require more, and that it is THEIR RIGHT TO DO SO. No lying, no fudging, no spreading rumors - just the facts.

 

If someone asks the purpose of filing in a Local Tour Permit, this info in the Cub Scout Leader Book might be helpful -

 

Your council is always concerned with the health, safety, and success of Scouting groups wherever they are. This permit and its application are designed to help you plan a safe, interesting, and enjoyable trip.

 

In case of emergency, calls might come to your local council service center, so the office should know where your pack is.

 

Your council would like to have a more accurate record of local tours and short-term camps in order to give each pack proper credit in its records and in news releases.

 

Tour leaders take satisfaction in the fact that their tours are officially recognized and that they are responsible Scouting groups.

 

Local officials in state and federal parks and forests can be assured that touring and camping groups have official status.

 

Often, certain courtesiesnot privilegesare extended to Scouting groups when official status has been determined.

 

 

Moose, I would recommend that your son stop fighting with his Charter Organization over their requiring a Tour Permit. It is their call. Even if their reasoning behind it is incorrect, and it makes life extremely inconvenient for your son, it's still their call to make.

 

If he wants to fight over something, he should press his CO about REQUIRING correct information from the Troop members (especially the SM), in a timely fashion, in order to process the Tour Permits that THEY REQUIRE. He can emphasize the fact that having incorrect information on the the Tour Permits MIGHT not be a good thing if they are worried about insurance coverage. Especially if the adults trained in specific things, and listed on the permit as attending, are not actually going to be in attendance. He should be able to use their own insurance coverage paranoia to get them to lay the law down to the SM. If that does not work, he can always cancel an outing because of lack of leadership, and an approved Tour Permit. Just as when we let the boys mess up in order for them to learn, it would be a simple consequence to bad planning.

 

 

 

[Eagle92]

What I was told is that the Tour Permit is a good faith type of thing in that it makes sure that you do have a copy of the G2SS, have people with the proper certifications for activities, etc. If you have the wrong person's name, or incorrect amount of insurance, and it was not deliberate, then you are good to go.

[Beavah]

Yah, I think your son just has to live with da expectation, eh?

 

Unless he just wants to ask for a certificate of insurance for each outing instead . Probably less work for him.

 

I don't like what we've done with the Tour Permit. We just keep addin' more paperwork for volunteers. Seems like the whole thing could be streamlined pretty easily online (with a real ScoutNet training records system). I particularly find the auto insurance information to be overboard, especially in the many states that have insurance requirements for drivers anyways. Really just a waste of volunteer time. Even in other states, you're really just takin' people at their word. Nobody is lookin' at insurance contracts.

 

Now if we had an online system where yeh could check where you were goin' and what you were doin' and it popped up a few reminders / flags specific to that location or type of activity while it registered your trip and checked training, maybe that would be nice. Otherwise I don't think there's much real benefit to all the other dross we collect. If one council in 10 uses the TP information well I'd be surprised. Mostly they rubber stamp and have done.

 

Anyways, the way most troops handle it is to collect DL's and insurance information once a year and put down a good guess as to numbers of participants a few weeks out. Your son can try those things to streamline. Nobody is expecting perfectly accurate numbers, eh? Lads and adults get sick at the last minute all the time.

 

B

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[Twocubdad]

Time out.

 

If I'm reading correctly, Moose, your son is responsible for completing tour permits for the troop and is being asked to falsely include himself and your husband's info even if they aren't going on the trip?

 

That's a whole different deal. Whether or not, if and how the tour permits affect insurance coverage is immaterial. Clearly, filing false permits isn't a good thing. I'd rather go to court without a tour permit that with a deceptive one.

 

If your son is the one completing the paperwork, he needs to simply quit doing it. If someone else is doing the forms, your son and husband should politely ask them to please not include them on the permit if they aren't attending and responsible. If it continues, go to the COR, since he's such a stickler for details. If it still continues, bring it to the attentiion of the Scout Executive, who countersigns the permits (here, at least, the SE's signature is rubberstamped on the tour permits.)

 

But all three of you already knew that.

[moosetracker]

That's the thing the COR is at all the committee meeting, and has been included in the emails where my son has complained about the whole process. Our Old COR would have had the other volunteers hand the info over to my son and enforced as accurate as possible Tour Permits. Our new COR, still abides by the tough rule of our old COR about Tour permit on everything. But, when son complains he gets told nothing wrong with falsify the documents as long as they are in so the insurance is covered.. Don't hassle the SM..

 

The last time he made a stand he tried to rattle their cages about their fear of lack of insurance by stateing no one whos car is not listed on the tour permit, should not be driving kids other then their own since if they got into an accident the they were not listed on the tour permit, so the insurance wouldn't cover them.. There were not enough seat belts in the 2 cars, and they really don't want my son driving anyone until 21.. COR & CC just said list their two cars, and say everyone else was driving with their parents (even though not true.).. Also that he did not see where the computerized version let him split for some going in their two cars & some going in parents cars.. It was not as flexable as old paper forms.. (I did not check, so not sure if what he said is true or not.) They insisted he just write in into a comment line or something.

 

I use to do some of the Tour permits under the old COR.. I had all the car insurance for anyone who drove the kids the majority of the time. Like Beavah and other stated I put them all down, even if their were more cars then scouts.. I forget how we did it, but we somehow made a copy of the TP with all the cars listed on the back page, so I didn't manually fill it out each time. I knew 2 weeks in advance who the leaders were (different SM).. and I was pretty proud of my guestimate of scouts based on the popularity of the event, and indications throught the pre-planning.. My son has none of that..

 

We have asked him to step down from Outdoor coordinator position since he gets no support.. He is stubborn, and doesn't want to give up the job. I dislike them teaching someone so young to falsify documents because they are too lazy to do it correctly (especially with them telling him it is something equal to or as important as insurance documents.)

 

Great way to teach our youth.. Huh??

[Beavah]

Yah, yeh have to love falsifying a meaningless document in order to ensure insurance coverage yeh already have.

 

Sounds like your son wants to help out but is running into the reality of lots of paperwork. Personally, I'm a "rather yeh didn't do it than deliberately falsify it" sort of fellow, but some folks swing the other way ("just give the paper pushers what they want so they go away"). That is the problem when yeh put too much paperwork burden on volunteers, eh? A few do it well, but most either blow you off or feed yeh crap.

 

Honestly, though, I'd suggest just spendin' a bit of time at the next committee or parent meeting and collectin' the info and then pre-printing a whole mess of forms the way you used to.

 

As a side note, for automobile stuff BSA insurance is always excess, eh? The car owner's automobile policy & umbrella always covers first. So it's really no different than drivin' the soccer carpool and yeh shouldn't worry about it any more than that. Even less with da BSA coverage there as a deep backup.

 

B