Troop Competition

[Stosh 3452]

An interesting issue came up last night that might be good to open to the forum.

 

At what point does negative recruiting practices become contra-indicative to the Scout Law?

 

For a while now we were wondering why our recruiting practices were not very successful until we recently found out the tactics applied by the other troop in the area. That troop has consistantly recruited 99% of all the other Webelos scouts from three different troops growing well beyond it's ability to handle that many boys. Eventually about half the boys drop out of Scouting because of this practice.

 

We were informed last night that yet another group of Webelos will be going en-mass to the other troop because the boys and their families were told that our troop never goes camping and doesn't get involved in any of the camporees, etc.

 

Well, we don't attend the local council summer camp because of former problems, yet we with our 9 boys vs. 45+ of the troop had more boys in attendance at the Winter Klondike than they did, we have half our boys attending the National Jamboree and they can't boast that statistic, we've produced 3 Eagles over the past 3 years, and yet somehow it seems to be acceptable for other troops to perpetuate such devious recruiting practices to insure their position as a troop in the community.

 

I kind of like the smaller boy-led program we promote, but it is difficult to compete with with an adult-led program that promotes it's program by running down such troops in the area.

 

At what point is it acceptable to promote one's own troop by running down another?

 

Stosh

[Oak Tree 15]

My policy is to describe what our troop does, and not compare it to other troops. In general, I don't think that it's acceptable to run down another troop.

 

That's especially true if you're talking to people you don't know. If I had a good buddy ask me to identify the strengths and weaknesses of different local troops, I might give him some more information. If a new parent asked me "Why should we choose your troop over another?" I think I'd go into some general differences that you might see between troops (some do more camping, some less; some do more backpacking, others do more car camping; some are big, some are small; some are more adult-led, some are more boy-led; some focus on advancement and uniforming, others focus on participation and fun; some are disorganized, some are very organized; some have mostly younger boys, others mostly older boys, and others have a mix; and every Scoutmaster has strengths and weaknesses.) And then I'd say - "I'll tell you how our troop fits in that picture - I'd advise you to talk to the other troops about their program."

 

Did the Webelos group talk to you and your troop? I'd think that would be the time to correct any mis-information. Maybe give them a hand-out that shows how much camping your group did in the past year. Include some of those statistics that you're using here. At least - that's what I would give the parents. Your Scouts can talk to the potential recruits boy-to-boy.

 

[Stosh 3452]

As a boy-led program, the recruiting is done by the boys unless I or another adult get a direct question addressed to us.

 

It would seem that of the three packs in the area, Pack A went 100% of the Webelos boys to the other troop, Pack B all but one boy (a younger brother of two of our boys) went to the other troop, and Pack C was recruited (per FC requirements) by the lone Webelos boy from Pack B. He has a friend in Pack C. He was told by his friend that all the boys from Pack C were going to the other troop because they were told we weren't organized, didn't do any camping and were having adult leadership problems and the reason we were so small is because we weren't a good troop.

 

I guess if one is going to run a boy-led program, one has to put up with such perceptions. Two parents from Pack B did check us out. Two Webelos boys from one of the packs came to visit because they needed it for AOL requirements and missed out on the visit to the other troop. We requested an opportunity to come visit their den meetings but no invites ever came.

 

We were hoping to have a NSP this year, but with only one boy, it's not going to happen. With the exception of this new Webelos boy (already T-foot), the whole troop is FC to Eagle in rank so we're planning on doing some more challenging activities this year.

 

The really strange thing in this whole process is that the small troop is located right in the middle of town and the larger troop is 10 miles out in the country. Those parents don't want to make the drive don't enroll their boys in Scouts because of this negative recruiting practice.

 

Stosh

 

 

[SMEagle819 10]

This has been an issue my troop has dealt with in the past. We have recruited, sponsored the Weblos den at a camporee, held the crossover ceremony, and even designed and made their Arrow of Light plaques,. Somehow, one of the parents convinced all of the other parents (please note I'm using the word parents, not boys) to go to another troop. Our SPL at the time went to the next CS Committee Meeting to find out what happened. He had a list of questions, and not one person could even look this young man in the eye and give an answer. Later on, I heard the reason the group went elsewhere is that we camp too much! I tried to get help from the DE and our UC, but did not get any help, or even feedback, there.

 

Needless to say, we have used that as a learning tool. We explain to the parents that we go camping once per month (except December due to the holidays, and July because many families go on vacation, and our Summer Camp week is the last week of June), we are boy led (letting the parents know that the PLC plans the destinations, and an adult will assist with any paperwork and/or fees involved), and the scouts advance at their own pace.

 

Our recruiting efforts are getting better; gained 6 at crossover time this year, with a bigger crop next year. What has also helped is having an active COR, and re-establishing a relationship with the Pack sponsored by our CO. They are appreciative of the help our Den Chiefs provide, and some of the leaders that will cross next year sit in at our monthly Committee Meetings to get a feel for the troop. One piece of advice I can give is continue the positive attitude you have. Do not take it personally, and try to get an adult on the committee to becaome a Recruiting Chair.

[moosetracker 132]

If you don't go to the council's summer camp.. Do you go to a different councils camp? Or vary between camps in other councils.. Or do you have a different activity for a week during the summer (like a week long hike). You may not care for you council's camp, but, it is something most scouts (plus parents) look forward to..

 

Getting that many boys is not good. The troop can't handle that many recruits on a per year basis.. They would grow to a 100+ troop, and the council would look to splitting them up (I would think, they wanted to split up our Pack due to size).. The drop out rate is probably due to them discouraging the scouts they feel are not top notch. Yet by the next year when they canvas for the new weblos, they can show off scouts that are the 'cream of the crop'. Parent love the thought of someday thier child being such a model scout (not realizing that they don't mold them, they select them from the group and dispose of the rest.)

 

What to do about it..? Can you get some of your boys to be Den leaders? Offer to help the Pack nearest you with one or two community projects? Get an Adult leader to work with the Pack by going to the committee meeting to help with crossover, or Weblos meetings to help them with arrow of light.. Our troop holds a Thanksgiving campout that we invite the weblos to.. We feed them real good, and do some fun activities. (Don't need to do that all, those are just a list of suggestions.)

 

Like Oak Tree states, you would then have time, to let them know about your Troop, your scouts, your leaders.

 

You may then get some staight from crossover. If they do choose the other troop, still be friendly and tell them if it doesn't work out, your door is always open.. If they know you, and they feel they haven't burned their bridges, by choosing the other troop, you may then start to get those that did not "fit in" to the other troop's agenda.

 

 

 

 

[artjrk 11]

We have 3 troop within 2 miles of each other and 5-6 more within a 10-mile radius. Recruitment can be hard. But the first thing I tell prospective parents and Scouts. Go with a friend and the odds are much better that you will stick with it. Also, I have gotten to know all the other local leaders. We all agree that each of our programs are of quality. And that a Scout can't go wrong with any choice they make.

 

A few years ago our numbers of new scouts started dipping and we kind of lost contact with one of two basic feeder packs for our troop. At first I was worried about our reduced numbers. But this last two years we started getting a couple of boys from a different pack. There reason for coming to us was that we WERE smaller than the other and they liked that. It was then that I realized that we had filled a niche and that not all troops had to be the same. This year we received 6 new boys from 4 different packs. I like the new diversity that is growing in our troop.

 

Since our Troop (1570) is a spinoff of the neighboring troop (157) our SPL at the latest openhouse joked that our Troop is 10 times better than them but followed up with the same statement that I use that all the local Troops are good and that our main goal was to get the boys to move on to Boy Scout, whereever that may be.

[OneHour 11]

I would have a heart-to-heart talk to the other troop and focus on the purpose of scouting as well as the survival of the troops. We all are trying to teach the same messages and ideals. This is what I am trying to do with our brother troop. Our troop cannot afford to grow any larger (86 and counting)while our brother troop dwindles away. We are trying to come up with a strategy to divide the incoming webelos for next year (45 of them) and years after that. So ... buy 'em a cup of coffee and figure out how to div up next webelos.

 

Good luck Stosh.

 

1Hour

[ScoutNut 147]

You have to be 21 to be a Den Leader, but getting Den Chiefs into some of the Packs is a good idea.

 

You stated that all recruiting was done by the boys. What exactly do they do to reach out to the Packs?

 

Do you have any Troop/Webelos campouts? Do you attend District Camporees? While at Camporees and Klondikes, do the boys talk to any the the visiting Webelos?

 

Do all of the area Cubmasters and Webelos den leaders have contact info for your SPL? Does the SPL regularly contact them to offer Troop assistance in activities?

 

You said that there are 3 Packs, and 2 Troops in your area. Do either of the Troops share a CO with a Pack? Or are you all chartered independently?

 

[moosetracker 132]

Oops, Scoutnut.. Den Chief was what I meant.. Thanks

 

cub scouts is long ago & far away.. All those terms are not as easy as they once were..

[Stosh 3452]

One of the three packs shares the same CO as us, but still sent all their boys to the other troop as well as seek DC's from the other troop. It would seem that the WDL from 2 years ago went to the other troop and spends a lot of time sending back DC's and keeping tabs on all that the pack does. The other two packs are independents.

 

We did have a DC in one of the packs, but the other troop recruited him away after a year.

 

I try not to take it personal, but I used to be an ASM of this other troop and refused to encourage any of the scouts that wanted to leave with me to jump ship. I had been ASM for many years and wanted a shot at SM and the troop was struggling.

 

"You have to be 21 to be a Den Leader, but getting Den Chiefs into some of the Packs is a good idea."

 

The other troop needs a lot of POR so they flood two of the packs with DC's so they get credit for advancement. It's hard to break into that cycle.

 

"You stated that all recruiting was done by the boys. What exactly do they do to reach out to the Packs?"

 

They request an invite to come in and put on a program of knots, compass, etc. to get to know the Webelos boys. Some dens extend the invite, others don't.

 

"Do you have any Troop/Webelos campouts?"

 

Fall Camporee and Winter Camp are both Webelos invited events in our troop.

 

"Do you attend District Camporees?"

 

Yep, about 85-100% participation on the part of my boys.

 

"While at Camporees and Klondikes, do the boys talk to any the the visiting Webelos?"

 

In our district, these Webelos invited boys are usually paired up with a host unit and so it's difficult to visit with these boys when they are camping in a different site.

 

"Do all of the area Cubmasters and Webelos den leaders have contact info for your SPL?"

 

SPL regularly attends the Roundtables and knows the CM's and DL's quite well.

 

"Does the SPL regularly contact them to offer Troop assistance in activities?"

 

Yep

 

"You said that there are 3 Packs, and 2 Troops in your area. Do either of the Troops share a CO with a Pack? Or are you all chartered independently?"

 

See above.

 

"If you don't go to the council's summer camp.. Do you go to a different councils camp? Or vary between camps in other councils.. Or do you have a different activity for a week during the summer (like a week long hike). You may not care for you council's camp, but, it is something most scouts (plus parents) look forward to.. "

 

The summer camp that the boys attend is a boy-led, patrol-method camp that caters to that philosophy. There is no mess-hall at the camp. The boys found this camp, registered and went for the first time last year because they had a difficult time with the council camp the year before. They voted unanimously to go again this summer. Remember, this is boy-led and so they decide where they want to go. I'm must along for the ride.

 

Basically, it's very difficult for a boy-led, patrol-method, troop to compete with a polished, adult-led/recruiting organization.

 

The issue is basically the message that is being promoted in the community. Adult-led is growing, exciting, dynamic, and well-run. Boy-led is dying out, disorganized, no opportunities, and the leaders don't know what they're doing.

 

Of course that spin doesn't support the fact that we're having a double Eagle Court of Honor next month.

 

As far as dying out, we are twice the size we were 2 years ago and I'm having the time of my life with the boys. The boys are 100% sold on the program we are putting out there for them, but they are frustrated to be foiled by the negative message being promoted by the adult-led program of the other troop.

 

>> forgot to add

 

Of the 6 registered adults:

 

5 are SM trained. The 6th is taking it this spring, just turned 18.

 

3 are Eagles

 

3 are WB trained 2 are thinking about taking WB this summer.

 

4 have SM experience.

 

I'm thinking the adult leadership isn't too shabby, but then I'd have to blow my own horn about how well I got a good crew of adults together.

 

Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

[Eamonn 61]

When I left the Pack I was CM of, my replacement was the fellow who was my ACM.

A nice enough fellow.

When his son was about ready to bridge over. He along with a few other parents started a new Troop. I was overjoyed. The Troop was part of my church.

They started with a great group of Lads, nine of them who had been all the way through Cub Scouts from Tiger.

They managed to pick up a couple more that first year.

The following year there were nine or ten more Lads crossing over. But one Webelos Den Leader just didn't like the now SM.

She never really had any time for this fellow. Kinda an oil and water thing.

No real big reason, no big argument or fight. She just didn't like him.

So with her help all the boys went to another Troop.

Five or six years went by and then much the same thing happened, only this time it was the Troop that had received all the new crossovers that was by-passed and the Webelos all went to the Troop that hadn't got them, so many years back.

Den Leaders play a big part in where the Scouts in their Den land.

Many feel that because such and such a Troop is where their son is going this has to be the best choice.

As a SM I was never sure what to do when Lads from a struggling Troop wanted to transfer to the Troop I was in.

I really do hate to see a Troop fail and would hope that I never played a part in helping it fail.

But all to often when I tried to talk a Lad out of joining us, he said that if he didn't he was going to quit.

All Troops and Packs have peaks and valleys. What might not seem "Cool" to a group of Lads this year, very well might seem the cats whiskers to a group of Lads next year.

All we can do is what we do and do our best to do it well.

Ea.

[moosetracker 132]

Oh I was not condeming you not going to your councils Summer Camp, Just making sure you did offer that to the boys.. My son went to different camps. And one year he got the whole troop to go, the council went NUTS.. The boys did want to return to the other camp, but with the stink the council made, I'm afraid the adults tabled it for "a few years down the road".. (Yes slap our hands).. Now we are so small, they wouldn't notice us going to a different place. Then we were big and a leading force in our district.. (It sent shivers up the Councils back).

 

It would be nice if you could find out the boys who leave this massive troop within a year or two.. That way you could find out if what they didn't like about the program, your program could offer. With the privacy & security though I don't think you could get this info from district, although they probably would like a chance to retain these boys.

[ScoutNut 147]

If even the Pack that is under your CO is taken in by the tall tales about your Troop you have a big PR problem. You need to really put yourself out there in the community more and let them see the "real you".

 

You say you are having a double Eagle ceremony next month, why not invite the Pack from your CO to attend? Maybe the boys would be interested in incorporating a Cub from each level into the ceremony in some way.

 

Would the Boys be interested in doing a service project for your CO, jointly with the Pack?

 

Anything you can do together (whole Pack & Troop, not just Webelos) helps form a connection between the CO's units.

 

Does anyone have little brothers in a Pack? How about big brother bringing his little brother to his den meeting a bit early and talking to the den leader personally about running some programs. Big Bro could look thru the Cub Handbook in advance and have ideas ready to run past the leader. It is harder to say no in person, especially when one of your Cubs is pushing for it.

 

How involved is your CO? Your COR? One way to handle the lying and backstabbing is to have your COR give the other Troops COR a call, or corner him/her at the next District Committee meeting.

[AKdenldr 33]

Some great feedback, here are some other ideas,

 

When we were looking for a troop for son and his webelos buddies I looked at the websites. (Pretty common, I think.) Do you have one? Is it up to date with the plan? This might be a great place to brag about your program and the boy's successes and present your troop's philosophy. Pictures of you camping and at the camporee....

 

Also, as I'm planning the Webelo year I would love a troop to invite me to a first aid demonstration or many of the other requirements in the Webelo book. Become familiar with what a WDL (or even Bear leader) needs. Don't ask me to invite you, you invite us!

 

Have you thought about recruiting 11 year old boys who are not in scouts?

 

Best of luck as you address this problem.

[Oak Tree 15]

I hate to say it, Stosh, but I think that recruiting is one place where adults will be more effective than the Scouts. Well, ok, the adults would actually be more efficient than the Scouts at pretty much any given short-term task, but for the most part we decide to sacrifice short-term effectiveness/efficiency in order to develop the boys and the troop. However, if you sacrifice the short-term effectiveness of recruiting, you're not going to have too many boys for the long-term.

 

You don't have to change anything. But if you want things to change, you might have to start the change. It doesn't sound like they're going to just turn around on their own. Webelos' parents have a large say in what troop their sons go to. Like it or not, a successful recruiting effort is typically done by troop adults reaching out to those parents in one way or another.