so how much respect is due?

[Lisabob 13]

Having read the original thread, and having sat through a meeting tonight at which I personally felt respect had not only not been earned, but had been (in some regards) given away, I must ask the title question.

 

Some scenarios (all loosely based on things I've seen, but none direct reflections of anything in particular):

 

1. For whatever reason, boys return troop equipment in much less than pristine shape after a camp out. No irreparable damage, but not very thoughtful of the boys to do that. Adult takes 10 minutes to scream at them about it and threaten them that next time it happens, they'll pay for the equipment. No going through PLC or addressing only offending parties - yelling at entire troop. Is youth respect for this individual's behaviors warranted?

 

2. Youth propose a change to troop practice re: troop provision of certain equipment, to allow for scouts to use their own equipment instead. Discussion at PLC. SPL takes discussion to committee, where SPL is told "no." SPL asks why. Told - it will be discussed later, after SPL leaves the meeting. Is youth respect for lack of inclusion in a discussion warranted?

 

3. Youth complains about behavior of fellow scouts at a camp out. Adult leaders drag feet on response, and end up responding in ways the youth feels are seriously inadequate. No explanation given to youth. Is youth respect warranted?

 

4. In a "full uniform" troop, committee members seldom wear uniform, yet won't hold a BOR for a boy who doesn't have his socks, or hat, or necker, or book. Certain committee members routinely give boys a hard time if the boy comes to a committee meeting to make a report out of uniform, yet few or no committee members wear uniform to these same meetings. Upon being challenged, youth member points this out and is then chastised for lack of respect. Is youth respect warranted?

 

5. Pick a policy. Adults insist that it is so, because it is so. No discussion. General sense of anger at being questioned by youth. Is youth respect warranted?

 

6. Tired, cold, hungry youth becomes a bit grumpy on a campout. Mutters under his breath about some policy or pronouncement that an adult has made, with which he disagrees. Word gets back to the adult. Adult becomes angry and shouts at the scout. "my way or the highway" is the message. Is youth respect warranted?

 

I've seen something like all of the above over the years. I wonder what you all think? Where's the line at which respect is no longer a given?

 

[evmori 11]

1. While the adult shouldn't have gone postal, the youth did not respect the equipment he was given. Appropriate response by the adult - return it to the youth and explain it should be returned in the same or better shape it was received and tell the youth to bring it back when it is. No yelling required.

 

2. I don't see this as a big deal. Committees do this all the time. I don't see this as a respect issue.

 

3. Tough call depending on what the behavior was and what the youth thought appropriate consequences are. It could be the complaint is about snapping towels and the youth feels the appropriate punishment is permanent latrine duty on all campouts and the adults just had a discussion about this with the youth.

 

4. Yes youth respect is warranted. The committee should be setting the example in this case.

 

5. Sounds like what my dad use to tell me when I questioned some stuff. This depends on what is being questioned. "because I said so" is never the correct response.

 

6. The youth, regardless of demeanor, showed disrespect with his comments. That doesn't mean the adult should show the youth the same disrespect. The adult should take the high road & just did nothing.

 

Great questions, Lisa. Thought provoking.

[CA_Scouter 11]

Ooooh. What words don't belong in the following group:

 

Anger. Yelling. Shouting. Scout Troop. Chastised.

 

There's just a lot of WRONG going on here. It looks to me that the adults are running the show and the YOUTH are not being respected. How can you expect the youth to respect the adults when the adults themselves are showing disrespectful behavior?

 

1. Agree with Ed. No yelling, sheesh!

2. Classic adult run troop attitude. Bad news.

3. Agree. Tough call, depends on circumstances.

4. See #2.

5. See #2.

6. Agree with Ed. Adult should take the high road. Thank goodness adults never get grumpy!

 

 

 

 

[Eagledad 2779]

Well this explains why every troop is different.

 

1. We handled it through the PLC. In our troop the scouts have the floor and run the show. If an adult wants to say something, anything, he has to get permission from the scout in charge. Adults never put their sign up first, they either waited for a youth leader to put up the sign, or requested a youth get the groups attention so they could speak. Also, we purposely did not yell or rant in our troop because we wanted the youth leader to learn how to control a group without yelling at them. I always told the scouts that yelling is a sign of lacking leadership skills and it was time to learn something new.

 

 

2. This would not have happened, or never ever happened while I was there. The scout is an to adults, so he is treated as an equal. What if this were a parent or another adult, would they have been treated the same way? Actually I found that scouts kind of got their way with the committee because the committee enjoyed them in the meeting. The adults even tended to show off a little as well.

 

3. It wouldnt happen in our troop. Also, we had a policy in our troop, if a scout doesnt understand why we do something and the adults cant justify it, they dont have to do it. This isnt quite the same issue, but the attitude to always be clear and have and explanation is the same. It forces the adults to justify their actions and not force their stature of being an adult over the scouts.

 

4. Im surprised to read this happens as much as it does. Adults must set an example of expectation. But I will admit I had to ask a ASMs once in a while to live up to the SPLs example. Never saw it in an BOR.

 

5. Refer to answer number 3.

 

6. Adults need to grow up.

 

Looking at these examples, we just had a different troop and different attitude. I look at these and realize the one big difference between Lisas troop and ours is we assumed our scouts to be adults. If you fill in adult where she has scout, I think it would change a lot. Oh we had blunders now and then, just like adults have blunders with each other. But in general we did not have the situations Lisa described.

 

Barry

 

[Eamonn 61]

Most of us adults (Well me anyway!!) Tend to think that we are right.

We shy away from things that may have been tried in the past and maybe not worked. We are then unwilling to give things another shot.

When it comes to change we all too often turn a deaf ear.

Some of the things that have worked for me over the years are.

1/ I let it be known that I'm the top guy. (SM or Skipper.) This means that when it comes to dealing with the youth members or the program, I'm the guy to go to.

2/ Before any meeting have a copy of the agenda. For Quarterdeck or PLC work with the youth leader is making the agenda.

When working with the youth leader on the agenda let him or her know what your feelings are before the meeting. That way you can allow him to present your case while you keep quiet!

3/ In a nice way be ready and willing to tell other adults that everything is OK and tactfully tell them to go away and the situation is being dealt with.

4/ Keep an eye out for what is going on.

Some kids don't always get on with one or two other kids, some leaders and Scouts are like oil and water.

Again be willing to tell an adult that you think that he or she might be being unfair to a Scout. Look for ways to solve this problem.

5/ Think things through.

We found having each Patrol having their own equipment worked for us. When it was turned in it went through the Youth QM and the adult QM. Pete our adult QM had been a store worker in the RAF. He wasn't always the most popular adult in the Troop Adult Team, but the Scouts thought he was fair and respected him. He also found ways of helping make mundane tasks a little less like hard work.

I was willing when it came to anything to do with equipment or Troop vehicles to trust him and his judgment.

6/ At Committee Meetings, I seen my role as being the Advocate for the Youth members. The Scouts knew that I was going to do my best for what they had come up with. Even if at times I wasn't really 100% behind it.

7/ Dealing with unhappy Scouts??

I'll admit that there are times when my dragging my feet is done in the hope that whatever it was will just pass and go away.

Without a specific case, I can't post how I might or would react.

In most cases I do bring all the Scouts involved together and tell them that they need to work on working it out. Having said that I do keep an eye on what is going on and am willing to step in as need be.

6/ I really do try my best to be fair and consistent.

Of course there are days when I get out of the wrong side of the bed or I'm not feeling up to par.

7/ Try to treat everyone with respect and live by the Golden Rule.

8/ Know that there is no harm in ever admitting that you were wrong and saying your sorry. It isn't a sign of weakness, in fact the Scouts and others will respect you for it.

Eamonn.

[Stosh 3452]

With a boy-led program, we get very little problems with those associated with Lisabob's comments.

 

As SM I try really hard to keep the issue of respect in the forefront of any situation. When I address the boys, I always use their last name with the "Mr." preceding it. The boys do the same for me.

 

When I address the troop/patrol I don't use "sign's up". I simply wait for the group to quiet down. Interrupting the boys with "sign's up" is just as bad as their interrupting me when I'm trying to talk.

 

If the equipment comes back in bad, it goes out the next time bad. When they complain, it is addressed as, the patrols need to address their problem. It's not something the SM is involved with. However, they did come to me last week with a number of old cast iron fry pans that were in terrible shape from having set in the storage closet for many years. They knew I had cast iron at home and asked me if there was anything that could be done to fix them. I took them home and they look brand new now. That's the first time in 3 years I have had such a request and it was my experience with cast iron.

 

When I talk to the boys for any "infraction" whether it be safety or one of the 3 troop rules, I talk quietly to them, kinda "in their face". This holds their focus, emphasizes the importance of the problem and keeps the issue "private".

 

What goes around comes around. Lead by example. I don't think I or the boys need to earn respect, it should be an assumed given for everyone equally regardless of whether or not they are entitled to it. Giving of respect is a reflection on me, not the other person receiving it.

 

My boys are all taught early on the phrase, "With all due respect....". This means they can address anyone in the troop, whether it be youth or adult, with their concerns without being insolent or insubordinate. That phrase also settles the person down to carefully phrase their concerns in a thoughtful and respectful manner.

 

Stosh

[Beavah 205]

Yah, I think respect has to be earned, and deserved. Up until that point, yeh give people da benefit of the doubt based on their claimed experience. Or you at least pay lip service to the concept because it's good tactics or the best thing to do for the group. Often times kids and adults both don't "get" the second part, eh? That yeh show respect to others as a sign of good faith even before they've "earned" it, or just because it's the best thing to do for everyone.

 

1. Yah, hard to say, eh? Sometimes it's OK to speak to da whole troop about a common bad behavior, like bad language being used in camp. I don't much like yelling and such, but yeh still should respect a fellow who brings a legitimate problem to da attention of the group and is tryin' to address it. Then yeh work with him to develop better tactics .

 

2. Why is this a Committee issue? If the PLC wants to authorize boys to bring their own equipment, they should just do it. I could see the PLC, for example, wanting to allow boys to bring their own tents, but the committee still providing tents for lads who don't have their own. As to da committee's inclusion/exclusion of da scout, that's a local thing, eh? While I certainly would encourage a committee to fully include a lad who was bringing a proposal, sometimes that doesn't fit with an agenda or da way some people operate. But I'd at least let him present his best case and let the members ask him questions.

 

3. Yep. Yeh respect da system, even if yeh don't like the outcome. Good lesson as a citizen.

 

4. When I'm workin' with kids, I guess I'm too busy paying attention to who they are, what they're doing, what they're learning, how they're growing and all that. I honestly don't have enough brain cells left to pay attention to what they're wearin'. Unless it's something that they clearly want me to pay attention to - like a purple mohawk haircut So I just don't get committees that get all bent about clothing. At da same time, I think if a lad wants folks to respect him for who he is rather than what he's wearing, he should give the same courtesy to others.

 

5. Nah, I don't care for that response by adults. At the same time, the lads aren't always great about timing such inquiries, eh? Or phrasing 'em in ways likely to get a fair hearing!

 

6. Respect? Can't say. Maybe some understandin' that adults get tired and grumpy on campouts sometimes too .

 

Yah, as an adult I'd do things a fair bit differently than what's being described, eh? At da same time, it does strike me as being a long list of teen whining. Yeh can find such things to complain about in any group, in any job, on any committee or project or case. Complainin' about 'em says a lot more about you than about them. Most mature folks learn to accept such occasional things as the normal foibles of people and work around 'em, forgive 'em, and soldier on.

 

Beavah

 

[Eagle92 110]

Lisa,

I'msurprised you have stayed as long as you have with your ttoop from everythgn I hear.

 

A few comments.

 

A) Respect is a two way street. Yes the Scouts need to give it to the adults, but the adults must also give respect to the youth.

 

B) Problems need to be resolved through the "chain of command" i.e. SPL, PL, Scout. Adutls shouldn't get involved unless I) the SPL asks for it or II)It is serious enough to warrent an adult's involvement i.e. safety issues

 

C) While there is a time and palce for shouting, i.e. Games, campfires, safety, etc. Shouting for discipline is not appropriate.

 

Now to the scenarios

 

#1 yes the Scouts did not take care of the equipement properly, shouting should not haev taken place, nor and adult's invlvement. Dependign upon how the your troop does it, eithe the QM should handle it (if the troops assigns gear to buddies) or the PL should handle it (if QM assigns gear to the patrol and they are resposnible for it all the time.) Adult shouldn't havebeen involved at all.

 

#2 Why is this a committee matter? This is a program element but an explanation is warrented as this is suppose to be a yuouth run program and explanationare are due youth not only as a sign of respect, but also to show WHY soemthign is done.

 

#3 unless it is a VERY serious matter, the SPL and PLs should administer punishement, not the adults.

 

#4 this is a tricky one for me. In my old troop growing up ALL parents were considered part of the committee, registered or not, and they did sit on the BORs. While those registered in the positions did have uniforms, most parents didn't. That said, the PLs and SPL were the ones enforcing uniform policy, not the adults. While a full uniform was required, if someoen was out of uniform, usually the patrol would help the guy out, i.e. lend a necker and woggle, EXCEPT if the book was missing. Had to have the book to get signed off. Also we cut some slack for the new guys who had just joined.

 

#5 Usually the adults were happy to explain the rationale behind the policy. For example when YP came out and we got our physicals from our ASM (or MC he had both roles during my tenure) who was aslo a MD and we had the CC in the room with us. Lot of us older guys questioned Why, was told the reason, and turned it into a good natured joke about the MD ("like Doc would do anything. He's a good Irish Catholic with 11 kids and one on the way.")

 

#6 Sicne the troop whould be youth led, why is the adults making policy? Now I do knwo that it happened one time in my troop, we had families with us for a special trip and due to the weather the parents decided not to let ANYONE hike inthe cold wet weather, despite the PLCs objections. Plenty of muttering and complaints, and the PLC solved the problem for next time: No families allowed on camping trips.

[Gunny2862 11]

How much respect is due?

 

Enough so that when I DO get involved, the discussion ends until their parent or the SPL or their PL contacts me.

 

Should what was described in the Parent thread have happened? Not in my opinion. But that is based on only one side of the story...

 

Based on what we've been told:

Should the adults have had cooler heads, Yes.

Did a teachable moment get passed and turned into controversy, Yes and Yes.

Should any of the adults have been making the statements they did after the SM said not to, NO.

Should the CC be looking for a new SM if he's going to listen to this Committee Member/Council volunteer instead of his SM - he better if it's me as SM...(This message has been edited by Gunny2862)

[Scoutfish 16]

I think respect is something that should be expected to be given to a person ina position of leadership. By being in that position, you must have done something to have earned respect.

 

BUT... that respect can easily be lost and thrown away too. Seen it at my own comapny when somebody is a great worker, has pride in their work and then gets promoted. Somehow, their heads swell up, arrogance starts growing in their attitude, and before you know it, you have a "I'm too important to work, and how dare you question me " attitude!

 

 

1)Complete and Total lack of respect.

Why not tell/show them what should be done and give them a chance. At the very worst, say you are dissapointed in the conditon of the equipment. But I think another adult should ask the adult when and where did he get that decision making authority?

 

2) Lack of respect.

The answer itself isn't so important as why. And the why should be explained at that time, then in turn, the SPL reports back to the PLC as to why.

 

But I'm also under the understanding that "That kind of decision: is actually the PLC's to make. Yes? No?

 

3) I'm divided.

Youth feeling responce is inadequate is probably every other time. No biggie there. But the reason why should be expalined to show particular youth why and also for future expectations. Not really disrespectful, but lack of tact.

 

4)Lack of respect, full of hipocracy.

Leader expectations are laid out in the books. Leader expectations are not expected less than youth.

 

Not to mention it sends an arrogant " The rules don't apply to me" message.

 

5)Not only lack of respect to youth, but lack of respect to program, and to ones own position.

"It's so because I said so, even though I can't prove it!" Hey, lets just tell all the scouts do do the same! I agree if it can't be proven at some point in a reasonable time, it isn't true!

 

Sounds more like a power issue than any rules!

 

6)Respect not given, but neather was normal human understanding. I'd take that adult to task the first time he wasn't in a good mood no matter the reason,. First time he mumbles, shows attitude or has less than perfect attitude, I'd tell him that his attitude won't fly and he better straighten up or hit the highway. Then explain the whole goose/ gander thing.

 

No, I wouldn't make him leave, but maybe with the situation reversed, he might have a better understanding...especially since he is the "mature adult" and not the youth who is supposed to be learning still.

 

 

Again, certain offices have a certain amout of respect that sorta just goes with that position. But it has to be maintained and upheld.

[acco40 95]

Personally, I would love to see a Scout show up for a BOR and then politely decline aafter he has been introduced and say he will be happy to reschedule once the committe members have a chance to rectify their uniform issues. And, no, I don't think that is being disrespectful but it does drive home the point in a polite way. Again, teenagers are great at identifying hypocrisy.

 

I really liked jblake47's response wrt patrol equipment. I used the same approach and had to fight the parents because they didn't understand the patrol concept.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Lisabob 13]

Just for clarification, while I have seen similar types of behavior as those listed, I was not referring to very specific situations or compiling a laundry list of complaints about a specific troop. Some of the scenarios listed were from different troops, or were composites of things I've seen and heard over the last few years.

 

Maybe I am wrong but actually I think the list reflects many similar types of issues that we see in threads here on a regular basis, which is kind of what I was aiming for so that we might talk about the general issue of "respect is given/respect is earned/respect has been handed away" rather than becoming bogged down in the minutia of a specific act.

 

Feel free to embellish the list though.

[Lisabob 13]

Ed, could you help me better understand your position on the second situation? Why is it not disrespectful to tell a youth leader that the answer to the PLC's request is "no," and then tell the scout that the reason why the answer is "no" will only be discussed after that scout leaves. Keeping in mind that (in my constructed scenario) we're talking about the use of personal vs. troop equipment, and nothing that needs to be confidential.

 

I'm not so much challenging your response, as I am trying to see things from your view on this.

 

 

[skeptic 997]

Few thoughts and a question.

 

Adults should make every effort to be polite to youth in their interactions. And, if they over-react, or do something out of bounds, they should be willing to apologize if necessary. On the other hand, youth need to respect adults, at least partly, simply because they "are" adults. We have far too many people who seem to think "whatever 'I' want, feel, or think is all that matters", and that they therefore can ignore or disrespect anyone with whom they disagree. Unfortunately, this is the example too many kids see in many adults today, and so they model it. Over the past couple of decades, "attitude" has become a far more difficult problem with youth, and it is not missing from scout groups. So, sometimes, maybe more often than in the past, adults may not have truly earned respect; but they may also not deserve "disrespect".

Tough call sometimes; but I must still side with mature adults in most cases, given enough knowledge and perspective.

 

The question; "why is using personal equipment even an issue?" I do not see how that could even be a problem; unless somehow, someone thinks the troop then is responsible for it should something happen to it. It certainly has never been a problem in our unit. Eventually, most scouts tend to have their own basic equipment.

 

 

 

 

[evmori 11]

Lisa,

 

I read that wrong. My bad. I missed the initial "no" which makes the rest of the response a head scratcher. And like others have stated, this isn't really a committee issue.