shortridge 184 Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 Setting aside the broader issues raised in other threads, I'm wondering if anyone can provide examples of successful interfaith services or elements thereof - in other words, services that work to focus Scouts' attention on the principles of the Scout Law, as is their purpose, but that do not cross the line into worship services. What works for your unit or camp? What moral lessons, stories or tales have you used or seen used that are particularly effective? I'm looking for examples of songs, stories, readings, etc., that neither proselytize nor force Scouts or Scouters into an uncomfortable situation because of their own beliefs about interfaith worship ... those things that are universal enough to stand the test, but not so generic and general as to be meaningless. (I really value and appreciate the discussion in other past threads on this issue, but am here looking for concrete examples and suggestions, not religious debate. Thanks... ) Link to post Share on other sites
John-in-KC 311 Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 At our major Council Camp (H Roe Bartle), we have: - Christian Protestant for each 500 man camp (3 of them) - Catholic for the Reservation - Episcopal/Anglican for the Reservation - Community of Christ for the Reservation. Jewish Troops provide their own coverage (but coordinate when more than 1 troop is in camp in a session). Jewish Troops IIRC do concede the Saturday Sabbath issue. I don't know if any of the area Islamic Centers charter a Troop at all. Does that help? Link to post Share on other sites
le Voyageur 72 Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 I would say their are none....there are those beliefs outside the mains that the traditionals of the major faiths prefer to ignore, and cast aside. Seen this behavior at various summer camps,camporees,Woodbadge, and as well as NCS. Interfaith services imho serves only to protect the exclusivity of the alphas.... Link to post Share on other sites
Greaves 10 Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 I recently attended Webeloree w my den, and I was impressed with the inter-faith service. It wasn't just inter-denominational/generically Christian. We opened w the 12th point of the Scout Law, then moved to a Native American prayer. We sang "God Bless America," then had readings from Jewish sabbath services and the Koran. We had a responsive reading, with Old Testament verses paired with each of the 12 pts of the Scout Law. We had a message on Leave No Trace, sang "he's got the whole world in his hands," had a prayer to "our Lord" and a benediction from "the Bahai faith, Abdul Bahai." It was a very nice service. The Pack responsible for the service did an excellent job supporting Scouts of different faiths, and exposing us to wisdom words from each other. (We were supposed to recycle the printed programs, but I kept mine, in case I ever needed to recreate the service.) Link to post Share on other sites
John-in-KC 311 Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 Greaves, You served everyone but the Christian in that. Your list mentions nothing to the New Testament. How did this service serve the Christian? Link to post Share on other sites
Greaves 10 Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 "How did this service serve the Christian?" Does the Christian not draw on the Old Testament as well as the New? Link to post Share on other sites
oldsm 10 Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 Christians also believe in the Old Testament. While some protestant Christian denominations focus almost exclusively on the New Testament, most Christians (I think) also understand that the good news of the New Testament makes sense only in the context of the Old Testament. Don't forget about all the O.T. prophecies of the one true Messiah. In a Scouting environment where non-Christians are present, I think it makes sense to stress our similarities more than our differences. At any rate, I think we all believe in one God, whether we call him(her) God, or Yahweh, or Allah, or some other name. I believe that the differences are more in the beliefs and practices that have evolved surrounding our worship of the Deity. Even so, as a Protestant preacher's kid, I can worship on occasion with other denominations, and have attended RC masses (sans Communion - I don't understand why Catholics have to be exclusive, but then I don't revere Mary in the same way, do not believe in transsubstantiation, and can talk directly with God without an intermediary). But I respect their traditions. I admire some of the practices of the Orthodox church (such as no instruments in worship, much like the early Christians -- check it out!). If I am with "those" people, I am not worshiping "their" God. He's mine, too! We just have different ways of practicing our faith. (Although I do make a very large exception for radical Muslims and anyone else who seeks to obliterate those of other faiths.) This is a very challenging topic! I look forward to more discussion and some more concrete examples of what works in interfaith situations. Link to post Share on other sites
John-in-KC 311 Posted November 4, 2009 Share Posted November 4, 2009 oldsm, Yes, the OT, the Law, has prophecy and foreshadowing to NT. That's a pretty advanced topic in apologetics for an 11 year old. He needs to be hearing basics "I Am the Way, the truth, and the life...", clearly and simply. So, I ask again: How does this service serve, rather than confuse, the Christian Boy Scout? Link to post Share on other sites
shortridge 184 Posted November 5, 2009 Author Share Posted November 5, 2009 John, Part of what I was hoping to get at by this thread is the answer to the question of what would constitute an acceptable interfaith service in the eyes of those who have objections to interfaith worship. The training syllabus recommends focusing on the Scout Law and its principles ... but how can a service coordinator best bring those up? Are there ways to serve people of all faiths and beliefs by focusing on what we have in common, or are separate services the only option from your point of view? Link to post Share on other sites
John-in-KC 311 Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 Make it not be worship. Period. Share tenets of our faith. Share "scripture show and tell" -- this passage is important to me and why... Share what's our worship day back in the city... Say "You may now pray in your own fashion." The instant you say "let us pray", I will get up and walk away. ChaiAdventure, I think, got it in the other thread. His faith does not declare Jesus as Messiah. For me to say "let us worship the Christ" in a Scouting context is for me to directly, overtly insult his faith. Equally, should he say "Torah is what matters", he's doen the same to me. Any interfaith service has the potential to do that. In my denomination, after the 9/11 Yankee Stadium interfaith worship, there were folks who wanted to tar and feather a certain Pastor and District President for having participated. In the Scouting context, at the unit level, our job is to support families of youth members in this. At the District and Council levels, there are common things faithful men and women can do in the Scouting context to serve our churches and synagogues--that we better support Scouting. Link to post Share on other sites
BDPT00 41 Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 I happen to lean toward John's argument on this particular service. I've experienced the same thing. There's no need to say who we believe Christ is, but there are some wise words in the New Testament ... lots of valuable lessons and teachings. It seems that those who put together these services think that the New Testament is off limits. Why? If we can so openly use teachings from other religions (even though there's a good chance that nobody from those particular religions are in the audience), why can't we use something that is familiar and significant to what I'll bet was 90% of that audience? 95%? It's no wonder that John gets upset with this. It's OK to express beliefs and teachings of other "prophets," but not the teachings of Jesus Christ. Where's the sense in that? Is someone trying to say there are no intelligent words to share from the New Testament? What is upsetting to me (and I presume John) is that somebody is boldly saying that Christ (and Paul and others) have nothing of value to say to young people. If we're going to call it inter-faith, then don't skip over Christianity so that we can include prayers to mother earth. BDPT00 Link to post Share on other sites
John-in-KC 311 Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 That's part of it. The other part is I shall not prosletise or evagelize in the Scouting context. That's a two-way street. If I refrain from proclaiming my God in environments where I do not know the full nature of the audience, for Scouting's sake ... please reciprocate the kindness: Refrain from proclaiming your God to me. What has happened in too many of these service is folks who do not understand Scripture go far and wide to make it acceptable to everyone. It's not, it cannot be. I'll gladly sit across the campfire, you with a Quran, me with a Bible, and we can talk Islam and Christianity. I'll gladly sit across that same campfire, you with Torah, me with a Bible, and we can talk about Law and Gospel. I will even go with Scouts to synagogue, as I do annually in helping them earn their religious emblem, that they might see how another faith community worships. Please just don't Mixmaster it. Link to post Share on other sites
Oak Tree 15 Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 The ones that I've seen as least likely to cause problems are services that are not really "worship" services, but more like thoughtful meditations on life, ethics, morals. What do the twelve points of the Scout Law really mean? Sort of a character development lesson. Look to the ant, thou sluggard! Consider her ways and be wise, which, having no guide, overseer or ruler, provideth her meat in the summer and gathereth her food in the harvest. How long wilt thou sleep, O sluggard? When wilt thou arise out of thy sleep? Yet a little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the hands to sleep" so shall thy poverty come as a marauder, and thy want as an armed man. Just one of my favorites :-) Another good one for teen-aged boys is "As a dog returns to its vomit, so a fool repeats his folly." Those fit right in with the items "A Scout is hard-working" and "A Scout is wise." Well, I'm half-joking here. You can find more constructive items on-line. There are examples all over. Link to post Share on other sites
John-in-KC 311 Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 Oak Tree, I can live with a discussion around the campfire. Just end it with nothing more than asking folks to quietly pray in their own tradition. Link to post Share on other sites
GKlose 24 Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 I'm a little confused (and I'm not trying to be contrary here, I'm honestly listening) -- The very first time I attended a Roman Catholic Mass, I was at a Scout camp. Same thing, for a Mormon service. Perhaps one of the most moving services I've attended was a friend's ordination as a Presbyterian minister. He was my den chief and my first patrol leader. I'm sure that every one of these services included "Let Us Pray". None of these were billed as an Interfaith Service...is that the distinction? Guy Link to post Share on other sites
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