Approaches to Safety

[Beavah 205]

In da parent thread, several posters shared advice or troop protocols about safety, either for specific activities or more general practices. Seems like a fine thing for us to be doin'. So this thread is to allow that sharin'.

 

One of da aspects of safety is to challenge complacency or assumptions, eh? It would be, I reckon, a service to each other if we also politely questioned, nudged, and challenged da advice and protocols that get shared. That's how we all improve.

 

So please share your insights and safety practices in support of and beyond G2SS, either for a specific area like "canoeing" or more generally - but only if you're ready to accept feedback without gettin' hot.

 

Beavah

 

[tonys 10]

It Goes in the fire, it stays in the fire.

[Stosh 3452]

Whatever the activity we do, we tend to push the envelop for the boys. Yet it's the adult responsibility to insure their safety as much as possible.

 

For example, we take the boys whitewater canoeing each year, yet there's always an adult at the top, bottom and middle of the rapids before any of the boys head down. Block/Tackle, throw ropes, etc. are all in place, but there's only so much one can do to minimize the danger. If we didn't offer such activities that have a twinge of danger, the boys wouldn't be out there pressing their limits. A challenge always carries with it a bit of danger and it's up to the adults to insure those risks don't get beyond their abilities to deal with appropriately.

 

My venturing crew is involved with extreme inherent dangers and there are those who do get hurt. Last summer I was knocked down by a wadded blank cartridge and I halted my company and had them face around and kneel to protect them. I knew immediately what had hit me and I know from experience that it came from a revolver that had potentially 5 more rounds that could be coming our way. The group involved both members of my venturing crew and other adults that I was responsible for. The maneuver looked out of place and inappropriate to what was expected for the scenerio, but when I called out the danger, many of the other groups in my immediate area did the same thing. You do the best you can given the circumstances. There's a lot one can do to minimize the personal dangers around the scouts by training them precisely correct movements, testing them annually and pulling them from the event even if it's a minor infraction that caused no one harm. My boys know this and they don't press the issue. I cannot protect my small group from any and all dangers, but an awareness of my surroundings requires me to be on my utmost alert to any potential dangers in the area. I have refused movement orders given by my commander and have overridden his commands because of some danger he missed, but I didn't. These are things that instead of being upset, generally garner praise for being alert and safe.

 

I have spent many years as an EMT-A and know the trauma that can be inflicted on a person, and I have spent a few years in the safety department of a large international manufacturing operation and know that in spite of everything one can to to minimize danger, there's always someone out there that suffers from that 1-second lapse of awareness that draws serious consequences. As a SM/CA, I can't afford losing that 1 second.

 

Stosh

[DeanRx 69]

As I posted in the orignal thread, I think communication and education is the key.

 

First - you teach the scouts to recognize a potentially dangerous situation.

 

Second - you teach them to react to it properly.

 

Third - you provide safety protocols and adult supervision that serves to minimize the risk in any activity.

 

I like the idea of not only formal safety training for a given risky activity, but a continuous classroom.

 

Example - We (son and I) went camping two weekends ago with 3 other dads and scouts from our pack. Not a pack thing - just friends getting together to camp.

 

Several times throughout the weekend, the boys were quized on a variety of safety issues - but it was a casual talk...

 

1) Why do we not take pocketknives out in the car? Why do we only unfold the blade when we are sitting at a location and going to use the knife, then promtly close the blade when finished with the task? A: Because movement in the car, or walking, running, tripping with an open pocketnife can equal big cut for oneself or someone next to you.

 

2) On our hike, as we left the car... OK, HOW would you get back here if you got turned around in the desert? A: We are parked on a dirt road with telephone poles running along side it. This is the only road in this area with telephone poles, so that will get you back to the road at least.... follow on - The pole we are parked by is the only one that has a single brace on it - all the others had two braces per pole. Additionally, We are hiking in mid afternoon, so our shadow is pointing to the south / southeast. We are walking with our shadow pretty much in front of us.... so to get back to the car, your shadow needs to be behind you or you're going the wrong way.

 

3) Back at camp - Can I put this in the fire? A: (as already stated from tonys) If it goes in the fire, it stays in the fire. And, put the marshmallow ON the skewer before you start moving it around so at least the points are covered.

 

All those answers came from the boys after thinking about the question posed. These are cubs in their wolf and bear year. The goal is to get them to THINK for themselves about safety and be proactive in their approach.

 

Finally - letting them know its OK to question an adult if they think the adult is about to do something unsafe. Showing they that you can still question others and be respectful at the same time. Lastly, that THEY are responsible for their own safety and if they are confronted with an unsafe environment, then THEY have the right and responsibility to "LEAVE THE SCENE" no matter who's in charge and go tell a trusted adult, and keep on telling them until you get them to listen.

 

Also, one thing I drill into my son - LISTEN TO YOUR GUT. It is a hard-wired 'fight-or-flight' response that has been ingrained into humans via natural selection for millions of years. It is seldom wrong. If you EVER get that gut feeling that something is not right - it probably isn't. Don't be afraid of offending anyone when you listen to it. This works for fire safety, risky behavoir safety, stranger danger, safety online, etc... (it also serves VERY well in playing poker, but thats another thread). If you get the 'fight-or-flight' feeling, run, scream, kick, bite, until you get into a situation you KNOW to be safe with a trusted adult. The last thing you ever want to do is talk yourself OUT of listening to your gut. No one ever died from being too vigilant, many folks have died because they convinced themselves they were being hypersensitive or over-reacting to a situation.

 

The G2SS is a great resource, but all it really does it help mitigate risk. Untimately, the individual is responsible for their own safety. The earlier a kid learns this, the better prepared they are to react to a potentially dangerous situation.

[Crew21_Adv 25]

Fellow Scouters,

 

 

I actually like Tonys safety practice and I've echoed it many times.

 

"It Goes in the fire, it stays in the fire."

 

Kids (and even adults) enjoy fire and what it can do, but sometimes a little too much.

 

Now, years later, I can find the humor in it. But I tell this story during training how a regular event can quickly become dangerous.

 

Many years ago during a Cub Scout Pack family camp, after the day was over and the families were making smores around the campfire. One of the young sister siblings Marshmallow caught on fire. You can probably imagine it in your mind, it was like she was casting a fishing rod, she was rapidly swinging her stick and flaming marshmallow between the 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock position. Suddenly it came off, arched over the campfire, and landed on youngest Crew21_Adv son's cheek and face.

 

I was standing right next to him at the time. I think my son did an entire flip, I hit him so hard. But, the fire was out. Within seconds, he was covered with first aid ointments and cremes from about 10 different first aid kits.

 

More recently.

Regularly during campouts, I've known Scouts and patrols that loved to cook bacon on the flat skillet over their coleman stove. I continuously recommend canned corn beef, since there is less grease; but they love bacon and the grease flash. They even love it, when the can tip the skillet just slightly to accidently let the grease fall into the flame causing a sudden huge firey flash. And I've often heard "Dude, That was cool, do it again! Do it again!" Once nearly catching a Scout ball cap on fire, and another time, burning a small hole thru the canvas dining fly. Sorry, but I personally think bacon should be banned from boy scouting.

 

But back to the post, I certainly like Tonys, comment. "It goes in the fire, it stays in the fire".

 

Scouting Forever and Venture On!

Crew21 Adv

[packsaddle 753]

To me the rules are one thing. However, if the boys don't understand the rationale behind the rules, they may be tempted to break them. What am I saying, that's going to happen no matter what. So I offer the advice a surgeon once shared with me, "if you think you can get away with it, don't do it."

 

I often repeat that on outings. In our area it is common, on a hike, to encounter a small memorial for someone who died tragically (often having been swept away on a river or over a waterfall). I stop and inform the boys of what happened, and the consequence of a poor decision is right there in front of them. Sometimes it works for a while and sometimes it doesn't. If my memory serves me well, and it does in this case, some of us are still around through sheer luck and not because of the set of rules we were supposed to obey.

[Buffalo Skipper 13]

"if you think you can get away with it, don't do it."

I really like this one.  I will need to start using it.

[Eamonn 61]

"if you think you can get away with it, don't do it."

 

I used to use:

"Only the mugs get caught"

The best way not to get caught, is not to do it, but if you are going to do it don't get caught.

A few of my pals thought that this wasn't in keeping with the Oath and Law.

When OJ was younger and with younger Scouts I used to use:

STAR

Stop

Think

Act

Reflect.

(Sad to say with the older Ship members this became "Don't be an idiot"!!)

Eamonn.

[AK-Eagle 19]

We have a simple rule here.

 

Get hurt on a scout event doing something stupid the newest scout is doing the first aid on you. Anyone seen trying or plotting something stupid is reminded.

 

AK-Eagle

 

 

 

[le Voyageur 72]

 

I for one don't believe in safety. I prefer to look at any activity in the terms of risk management. Programs range between low risk, to high risk and everything in between,be they subjective, and/or objective. Thinking a program as safe is in itself a subjective risk, meaning that there be other elements of risk hidden in the program which have been overlooked, or not considered.

[asm 411 10]

Whenever possible let the Scouts handle the safety. I have found that if I can wait just a little longer than I normally would to put a stop to something a Scout will. The difference is that when a Scout tells a another Scout that what they are doing or about to do is stupid he only has to say it once.

 

For instance we were camping last spring and one Scout announced he was going to jump over the fire. I sat quietly ready to put stop to it. As I was choosing my words another Scout says "Only an idiot would do that. Besides it is not much of a challenge anyway." That was the end of it. I still had plenty of time if the other Scout had not intervened.

 

I have held myself back like this several times since on purpose when similar issues have come up and in most cases the Scouts will police themselves. So I realized that my safety switch pops quicker than the Scouts. If I hold off for just a short period of time the Scouts will watch out for each other. The side benefit is when I do speak up the more impact it has.

 

[Eagledad 2779]

>>Whenever possible let the Scouts handle the safety. I have found that if I can wait just a little longer than I normally would to put a stop to something a Scout will. The difference is that when a Scout tells a another Scout that what they are doing or about to do is stupid he only has to say it once.

[Gunny2862 11]

The problem isn't the bacon - it's tipping the pan to cause the flare-up.

Which is the safety issue, the bacon or the inappropriate practice?

 

Don't get me wrong, I like Hash Browns - but I also like teaching the boys how to cook things at varying levels of "doneness". And very little works for that like Bacon does.

 

I am also very, sometimes overly, safety conscious. OSHA regulations and being the Safety Rep. for Large organizations will do that to you.

 

But what is the risk involved - what is the reward? If we actually understood the risks very few of us would drive - Conversely, it's safer to drive on the route available to me than to ride the Bike - but the reward in time saved is HUGE.

 

Protocols are fine but also lead to complacence. "Well, we followed the protocol, it looked wrong but who knew catastrophic failure could occur like THAT?"

 

Vigilance and Awareness of what you are doing are better - constantly examine what you are doing.

And as the poster above noted, paraphrased, Everyone is responsible for their own safety, then for that of those around them. Even Lifeguards evaluate their risk before going after a swimmer in trouble.

 

Build this into your Scouts, mindfulness, and they will always be safer than others who failed to learn this one thing.

[tonys 10]

I was quick to put my quote it goes in the fire it stays in the fire my experienced scouts normally are the first one to tell another boy that one liner,so I guess it works.

 

What I want to talk about now troubles me. I was invited to a cross over ceremony at a pack I don't usually get kids from it was a great ceremony obviously lots of committed leaders what bothers me is they have a tradition they tell the Webelo 2's that a neckerchif that burns without being consumed means the boys are ready for boyscouts.

when they put a match to the neckerchief (on a music stand )there was a 3 foot+flame and burning fuel (acetone)dripping on the school stage this was indoors!! I told several leaders that I felt the display was not in keeping with the spirit of the G2SS. I'm not sure they saw it my way as I was told "that's why the boys don't light it". have any of you guys heard of this tradition? after reading of the NJ tragedy I didn't sleep well last night. I'm not sure what else I should do I don't want the reputation of a trouble maker. I've told the leaders go to the commissioners all would know it was me? go to the DE? what do you all say

[packsaddle 753]

Not in keeping the G2SS..DUH! that means I agree with you. Assuming this video is the ceremony you're describing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWvpyUTScD4

Run it by the local fire marshall as a hypothetical. Then quote the fire marshall to them...to the school prinicpal if necessary.

If the above video is the right one, let the fire marshall take a gander. It is better to take the heat (pun intended) by stopping this than to have to live with knowledge that you could have prevented a tragedy.