re-inventing Boy Scouts

[Bob White 20]

"Eagle scouts that don't camp? Boy leaders that don't lead. Eagle projects designed, directed and implemented by parents. Eagle projects that are basically a total waste of time."

 

Where does the BSA allow that except for scouts with extreme medical conditions?

 

Where does the BSA teach or support Eagle projects being developed and lead by parents?

 

It doesn't. You are railing at the BSA when you should be condemning adults who do not follow the program, because that is where the problems you point to come from.

 

The Patrol Method is still taught and supported by the BSA and buy many unit leaders, just not by all (a an unusually high number of those who do not use the Patriol Method seem drawn to this particular forum.)

 

But this is nothing new, The BSA never had a point in its history when every leader knoew and followed the program...NEVER. I remember as a scout in the 60s being in awe at district and council events at the number of units that were adult commanded, and camped in nice neat squares while the troop I was in was being led by the patrol leaders and we camped and functioned as patrols and not one large troop.

 

So the fact that some troops follow the progran and some don't speaks to the ability or lack of ability of the leaders.

 

Use some common sense here. If the problem was that the program didn't still teach what you call "the old ways" Then NOBODY would be using the patrol method and youth leadership and all those traditional skills that are still in every handbook.

 

The fact that we all have the same BSA resourcesa and the Same BSA training courses psroves that the inconsistencies are found in the skills of the leaders and not the content of the program.

 

">>> If a patrol wants to go to summer camp, 1) they can't register at camp as a patrol, 2) they need 2 adults and 3) I don't think this is boy led, patrol method, being promoted in any sort of fashion."

 

Certainly stosh you have a more mature understanding of the world around you than that? The BSA did not create our litigious society they are just another organization that must operate with its rules. Just because you have to have adults present does not mean they have to be there telling the scouts what to do. The best things an adult can bring to any camp is a chair and a coffee cup.

 

Their work should have been done long before the cars were loaded up, in the coaching and mentoring of the junior leaders.

 

Again your grievance should not be with the BSA. They asked for just two the adults to be present not oomnipresent. Units that choose to take a swarm of adults and allow them to supercede the Patrol Nethodf do so because of their own lack of leadership skills, not because they were instructed by anything in the BSA to do so.

 

 

">>> I hear people complaining about electronics the boys are glued to. I hear about the parents that force their boys to get their Eagles. I hear about all this crap and yet very little about the boys that want to be there and want the program and don't get it because some bozo adult leader can't reliquish responsibility to the boys to run their own program as they have theoretically been taught"

 

Where does the BSA talk about the use of electronic equipment or ban the use of it? No where. How can you noy understandt that that is the personal behavior of some leaders and has no relationship to anything taught in the BSA.

 

Take Eagle92's comment abount not doing Patrol Activities without adults back in the late 80's or 90's because it was not allowed then.

 

YES IT WAS allowed. I know because not only was I a Scout leader in a troop at that time but I was training Scoutleaders and Patrol Activities without adults leadership was in the handbook and in the training syllabii just like it still is today and has been since 1911.

 

The program has not changed and neither have some leaders, they either do not know or do not follow the program. Eagle92 was not aware of it today or that it is supported in multiple handbooks and even in the Guide to Safe Scouting and Youth Protection.

 

So the program did not change. Its just a newer batch of leaders not following it.

 

"#1 thing I have learned in my journey was that kids will hang around a program as long as the program provides what is promised, they will hang around. As soon as it doesn't, they're gone."

 

Finally a glint of understanding. Not all units ignore the program, or every unit would be losing scouts, and that simply is not true. Units that don't deliver the promise of scouting lose scouts, not every unit. And the promis is still there. Take a momemt abnd actually read the first few pages of the Scout Handbook. The actually read a Scoutmaster Specific Training Syllabus. On for the very first sections begins with "ARE YOU KEEPING THE PROMISE" it then instructs that the promise of advebture be read from the handbbok and the question is asked agaain, "re you keeping the promise?" it then goes on to spentd the longest segment of the training on the outdoor program.

 

You DO NOT KNOW what the BSA says the Scouting program is. You do noy know the content of its training. You SEE others not following the program and you assume that the BSA has chaged it.

 

You are right that not not all leaders are following the program, you are wrong about who is responsible for that.

 

And you are wrong anbout the content of the program and you cannot identify an "old way" that is no longer in the program which is responsible for membership loss as you stated.

 

You are worse then those who think the sky is falling, You think it already fell, despite the fact that it is still over your head. Or maybe because it is.

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[BadenP 93]

jblake

you need to take whatever Bob says with a grain of salt, he is a "corporate BSA man", and in his eyes they can do no wrong. The problem is not with the basic BSA program but the rather ludricous ideas coming out of National today.

 

IMHO National has lost their direction and is flaying away aimlessly in all directions instead of standing on the core program of the BSA, which are timeless on the skills and values it teaches at its foundation. The accusation that the BSA has gone soft in recent years is not without merit, eagle scout troops and merit badge mills are all too common today. That is one area I agree with Kudu and others. "If a boy doesn't become Eagle he is not a true scout", hogwash. In Nationals recent attempts to "modernize" the BSA program all they have done is continue to lose more support and more boys. Lets get back to the basics.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

[pinkflame 11]

It seems the thread is a little dereailed.

 

On the issue of Hispanics in Scouting, from my vantage point in San Antonio it is definitely NOT just a few token Hispanic units, although maybe I should better say units with Hispanic Scouts and Hispanic Scouters. As someone stated, "Hispanic" is a fairly broad term for people from a lot of different places, including many people from the USA for amny generations. Here in San Antonio, Anglos are the minority, so maybe that just makes us different altogether. I have been trying to think of Anglo and Hispanic Scouters I know and I'm pretty sure I know lots more Hispanic Scouters than Anglo Scouters although I usually don't think of peopple in those terms. People go camping and to summer camp and have boy leadership and all the other stuff everyone else does or should be doing. In fact, of the two troops I am most familiar with, the one with predominately Hispanic Scouts and Scouters is much more boy led and travels much more independently than the otehr one ever thought about doing.

 

Some people have some language issues, but since there is usually someone else (Anglo or Hispanic, since you can't assume a person with a Hispanic surname necessarily speaks Spanish) around to translate. We have been in both affluent and lower-income units with Hispanic Scouters in all of those situations. I have heard some deroggatory statements from youth in an affluent unit I worked with (something about yard men) but it was not supported by the other Scouts.

 

I went to the link "Scouting Vale la Pena" and it is really pretty innocuous. The only new information is a section devoted to parents about how Scouting will help them help their boys grow up with good values and another place with more emphasis on the 12th Law. Maybe National needs to come to a pluralistic city to see some ways it already works.

[Bob White 20]

"Maybe National needs to come to a pluralistic city to see some ways it already works."

 

Do you know for sure that they haven't?

[evmori 11]

"Eagle scouts that don't camp? Boy leaders that don't lead. Eagle projects designed, directed and implemented by parents. Eagle projects that are basically a total waste of time."

 

Where does the BSA allow that except for scouts with extreme medical conditions?

 

Where does the BSA teach or support Eagle projects being developed and lead by parents?

 

I don't think anyone has said the BSA allows or teaches these things. But the BSA does let them happen!

[SR540Beaver 116]

Actually Ed, if you read back thru this threadand other threads back over time, you will find those who firmly believe that the BSA has changed the program over time. They believe that the BSA program does not include an outdoor program or the patrol method. As Bob and others have repeatedly pointed out, these elements have always been and still are verymuch the base of the program. The BSA makes tweaks here and there, but the basics are still the basics. Has, the oath, law, motto, slogan, handshake, salute, scout symbol, etc. changed? Have the ranks, being a uniformed movement, rank requirements, etc. changed? Some, but much. While some folks do a lot of hand wringing and moaning, the majority of the changes are merely tweaks. Personally, I think that the Cooking MB should be Eagle required, but the world isn't going to end because it isn't. As I've stated before, I work with new scouts, so I know the Tenderfoot thru First Class requirements backwards and forwards. I have access to a few old handbooks from back from the old days like the 50's for instance. While the wording and orgaanization of those requirements have changed, the base of thos requirements are the same.

 

The real finger of blaqme lies within the individual units and it's leadership. Scouting has always suffered from well intentioned adults who either thru ego or laziness, change the program to suit their needs. If they will follow the training and the program as designed by the BSA over the last 100 years up to the present, they will provide a robust outdoor program that is boy led and will deliver the promise.

 

The boogeyman resides locally and always has.

[Hal_Crawford 15]

Pinkflame:

I am pleased to hear that it's working in your area. We have a large immigrant community in Northern Virginia but I have not seen much success in our area. The latin community is heavily involved in cultural events (music and dance festivals) and soccer. There are day laborer sites, some government sanctioned and some not. There are many latino businesses and markets and yes, there is gang activity as well. What may make us different from your area is that most of our latino communities come from Bolivia, El Salvador, Peru, Columbia and Ecuador. We have very few from Mexico.

 

We have a Vietnamese troop in out district and some small but active African-American troops but no Hispanic units that I am aware of. I have seen may be a handful of hispanic scouts in mostly Anglo units but nowhere close to the proportions of the school population. I have not been involved in Cub Scouts for quite a while so it might be different at that level but I doubt it.

 

Looking at our council's website it seems that they put most of their Scoutreach effort into reaching the African American community which is huge as our council covers the District of Columbia and Prince George's County, MD. The Scoutreach page has a lot of detail about the program in our council but if you click on "Scoutreach page in Spanish" you are linked directly to the national "Vale la Pena". Hmmmm, maybe that is a clue/

 

I hope that BSA is looking at councils like yours where it is working well and councils where it isn't and trying to figure out what works, what doesn't and why?

 

BTW, and this is not directed to any one individual on this forum, traditional scouting is alive and well in our council. Our troop is boy led and I think most of the others in our area are as well. There is a lot of variety in the programs but most of the units I know are seriously outdoor units. Some do more car camping than I would like to see but others do Philmont, the AT, Seabase, Cranberry Wilderness and/or organize treks in some pretty exotic places. Our troop is transitioning from plop and drop to doing more backpacking and high adventure but it is up to the scouts to decide how and what.

 

I think most of the Eagle projects are good ones and our district maintains pretty solid quality control (including the LDS units). The scouts get out of it what they want to get out of it and I think that is what counts.

 

Its not totally like it was when I was in scouts, we don't ditch our tents or dig big ditch latrines and I never saw a gas stove when I was in scouts but we go to a patrol cooking summer camp... our scouts haven't seen the inside of a dining hall since Cubs. Actually, when I was in scouts (early 1960's) we did a lot of car camping with heavy chuck boxes and we went to a dining hall camp. If I recall the camp was whites only. I don't remember the patrol method being that much stronger at the time but we maintained better uniform standards. And the snipe hunts and some of the other acts of hazing could be pretty brutal. So some things have gotten better, some have stayed the same and others may not be so good but I think BP and Bill would be OK with the way it is working.

 

Hal

 

 

 

 

 

[Stosh 3452]

Aww, gee... What people don't realize, including BW, is I'm not trying to disprove any of his ideals as written on the pages of the BSA epistles. There are many that see only the paper and the words written therein and are myopic enough to not see beyond.

 

Yes the BSA program has always promoted the right stuff. But instead of changing things in the program, wouldn't it be a better idea to try and translate that program down to the boys in a more efficient manner.

 

As I have said over and over and over again: the boys are leaving because the units are not providing the program that BSA puts out there. If the boys are promised leadership and character development and all they are getting is patches and fun games, I'm sure it isn't going to take too many of the boys to figure out that what's shown in the ad is not what shows up in the box. Until that happens, the boys will become disillusioned and leave in droves, as membership statistics of the BSA have shown year after year. 25% attrition per year is not a number I made up.

 

The only positive thing about BSA's venture into the Hispanic culture seems to be more of a membership recruting effort than an attempt to fix the problem of program deliverance. I say go for it. Why shouldn't the Hispanics, or any other group, be as disillusioned with the BSA program as the next guy.

 

Every Webelos cross-over for me is going to be an Eagle scout. I don't buy into a 25% attrition rate, nor do I accept a 5% Eagle rate. That boy will be prepared (kinda catchy phrase) to meet the challenges of adult life, marriage, family, work, church or anything else life throws at them. As a SM/Advisor that's my responsibility to get them ready for real life. Is that learning curve going to be all fun and games? Nope, but it will be for real and that's what the boys want, they want the program as promosed.

 

Stosh

[roguedawg 10]

I read this thread and by the end of the thread my head was spinning. I grew up in scouts from cubs all the way to Eagle and stayed in until I was 24. Things changed both good and bad. Almost all good. Now, 16 years later, more has changed, good as well as bad. I am involved in Royal Rangers as well as getting back into scouts. Us Royal Rangers are seeing the same trends as the BSA is seeing. We are also having a lot of changes going on with the uniform and program changes. So I can relate. I ask a question for you. Why are you involved in scouting? I had to ask myself the same question. Am I involved for myself or the boys? If you are in it for yourself, you are in for the wrong reasons. Youth numbers down? If you can't keep the boys involved in scouts or royal rangers, you can't change their lives. Keep the focus on the boys. Focus on a boy-lead program. I think camping is very important, but it is only a tool. I think is would be very unwise to get away from it. But that is my opinion.

 

We are having a success with reaching the Hispanics. In our Spanish Eastern District (New York City Area), the outposts are growing. How are they doing it? I have no idea. I think it has to do with the family involvement. Boys go to Royal Rangers and girls go to Missionettes. I think that scouts is at a disadvantage with that since there are two organizations - BSA and GSA. Where RR and M'nettes are housed under the same roof. We can share leaders and resources. Perhaps BSA should work more closely with the GSA?????

 

There are some barriers though. I attended a Regional Commander's Conference last year in Bethlehem, PA. (No Mary and Joseph were not there, nor the three wise men) I sat with 4 Spanish Eastern brothers and it was a little awkward since they were speaking Spanish and I could not understand everything they were talking about. They probably felt the same way since us 4 guys were speaking English and not Spanish. BUT, we were on the same page as the program goes and the focus was to be better leaders to serve the boys better.

 

I think the decline in youth is due to the breakdown of the family and because of that, lack of parental involvement. Moral decay? How far can we down can we go as a country? I am not complaining, but stating that it is even more reason to stay involved with the youth and make sure that morals are being instilled and being passed on. Keep training up leaders and let them go lead.

 

It is a hard call for upper leadership in either organization. I guess you have to keep the the core values but be willing to adapt as time goes on. The bad aspect is that you don't want to drift too far from the core values. I can't see the BSA or RR going away anytime soon. RD

[Bob White 20]

"As I have said over and over and over again: the boys are leaving because the units are not providing the program that BSA puts out there"

 

SAY WHAT????

 

All you have done stosh is blame the BSA for not supporting the Patrol Method, and youth leaderership, and for dropping all the outdoors skills and all kinds of other fantasies.

 

If you ever believed that the problem was the delivery of the Scouting program by some unit leaders then WHY do you argue with me every time I say it?

 

"Every Webelos cross-over for me is going to be an Eagle scout."

 

Now we are getting somehwere. That's not following the program either. Eagle Rank is not the goal or purpose of scouting, and you deciding for a scout what rank he will become, and what goals he will set, shows that you are as much an adult dictator as any untrained leader out there.

 

You are part of the very problem that you rant against. How ironic is that(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Stosh 3452]

It's rather unfortunate that people read and understand what they want to read and understand. I have for many years written numerous articles on various subjects, spoken to many different groups in thousands of different settings, posted on multliple and somehow don't seem to be as misunderstood as some on this forum insist on being.

 

I'm just going to mark this up as either 1) will never understand, 2) refuse to understand 3) cannot understand or 4) are having too much fun playing Devil's Advocate.

 

Constantly having to prove every thing, belongs in a court of law not friendly conversation. When someone can tell me why they think 25% per year attrition rate, a small percentage of those actually finishing the program, and units are constantly frustrated and boys are frustrated with disillusion, and this is not acceptable for the scouting program, then we can continue the discussion. Reinventing that which does not need reinventing is a valid sign that what's on the table at the moment just isn't working. Well, it used to work and it worked just fine. If the world changed, maybe it's time to just shut the doors and forget about scouting because it no longer relates to the youth of a changed world. I guess the slogan "Timeless Values" is just one of a hundred gimmics the PR boys have tried to promote. Until then I guess I'll just have to use my "made up as I go" program because that's what my boys seem to want and keep coming back week after week to get.

 

Stosh

[Kudu 186]

pinkflame writes:

 

"It seems the thread is a little derailed."

 

The thread is perfectly on point.

 

It is inherently racist to "reinvent Scouting" to target Hispanic youth. The last time white BSA millionaires reinvented Scouting (in 1972) so as to dumb it down to what they perceived to be the minority level, the BSA went into a sharp decline from which the article admits the BSA has never recovered:

 

The group remains the largest youth organization in the United States, with 2.8 million children, nearly all of them boys. But that is about half of its peak membership, which was reached in 1972.

 

The Baby-Boomer's parents did not suddenly stop reproducing in 1961 so as to cause the sharp decline in 1972 as indoor modernists insist.

 

When you start with the racist premise that Latin boys are different (strong family connections and relaxed individual achievement, for instance), then you end up with holders of the Wood Badge getting all weepy about "inclusiveness" and "making ethical choices" while family camping with grandma and baby sis.

 

Last summer I was taken on a tour of a pilot project at Camp Thunder, GA that seeks to move Scouting in this direction. They have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars building upscale family camping centers in the Scout camp, including wide platform porches complete with family rocking chairs!

 

And why not? Many Councils have spent that much on summer school cafeterias to lure boys indoors away from the Patrol Method.

 

When I recruit in the public schools, I talk about bears, rattlesnakes, matches, knives, guns, arrows, Patrol camping, Patrol hiking, and learning how to be a hero in an emergency.

 

I get the same percentage of Latins as are in the school population. These are real boys, not Wood Badge "modern boys."

 

Do you want to know what Latin "family connections" means if you recruit to get ALL BOYS rather than targeting "Hispanic" boys? It means Latin boys come back with their brothers and sometimes a couple cousins, and it means you don't split them up into different Patrols.

 

The only "reinvention" that Scouting needs is to reinvent its Mission Statement, give up passive brown nose sniffing at the wrong end of popular culture, and RECRUIT with the MISSION to get back to Scouting's TRADITIONAL OUTDOOR ROOTS. See:

 

http://inquiry.net/adult/recruiting.htm

 

Kudu

 

 

[NeilLup 13]

"The Baby-Boomer's parents did not suddenly stop reproducing in 1961 so as to cause the sharp decline in 1972 as indoor modernists insist."

 

Actually, Rick, I think they significantly did.

 

Our daughter was born in 1973 which was the "trough" year -- the year of the lowest number of births. I believe that the birth rate was less than half the birth rate of some of the "peak" years in the '50s. The birth rate had, I believe, been dropping for almost a decade previous.

 

After 1973, the birth rate started going up but very slowly.

[Mr. Boyce 13]

Everyone's taking a stab at pulling out the truth. There are many trends going on. Some of these help the BSA, others do not.

 

The biggest factor is likely the sheer competition for youth's attention: from other organizations (especially the intensification/professionalization of recreational sport) as well as from other kinds of activities that better fit into personal schedules. It's easy to turn on a computer for a minute or two; hard to round up people for a game of baseball outside.

 

The Boy Scouts have a huge opportunity to market the program to single mothers. I think a large percentage of them eventually realize that they can't do it alone, and that their interests would be extremely well-served by the BSA program.

 

One abiding factor---but with a larger impact now than in the past, since we're all moving at such greater speed between places, things and relationships---is the perceived lack of coolness of scouting. But this will always be the case. What's tough now is the extreme media harping and blasting that youths have to be street fighters and sports heroes to make the cut. Unfortunately, the noise from our nonstop, omnipresent media totally overwhelms any rebuttal from parents, friends, relatives, etc.

[perdidochas 658]

It is inherently racist to "reinvent Scouting" to target Hispanic youth. The last time white BSA millionaires reinvented Scouting (in 1972) so as to dumb it down to what they perceived to be the minority level, the BSA went into a sharp decline from which the article admits the BSA has never recovered:

The group remains the largest youth organization in the United States, with 2.8 million children, nearly all of them boys. But that is about half of its peak membership, which was reached in 1972.

 

The Baby-Boomer's parents did not suddenly stop reproducing in 1961 so as to cause the sharp decline in 1972 as indoor modernists insist.

 

Well, according to the CDC (http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/statab/t001x01.pdf), we haven't had as many births in any year since 1961 as we did then.  1961 had 4,268,000 births.  Since then, we haven't reached that level. 

Demographics is one reason for the lower number of Boy Scouts today, but undoubtedly it's not the only reason.

 

In 1962, we