What BSA Rules get in the way of a Good Program/Image?

[Eagledad 2783]

>>If the only thing we can come up with is Laser Tag, contact sports,(that are certainly available outside scouting) there doesn't seem like there's much that really prevents a high quality program.

[Gold Winger 9]

Traditional capture the flag can accomplish the same goals as Laser Tag.

 

 

[OldGreyEagle 5]

Barry, I don't understand your comment on football. This is the passage from the G2SS

 

Varsity football teams and interscholastic or club football competition and activities are unauthorized activities.

 

So unless your troop wanted to play in a league, I don't see an issue. The youth can still pay flag, two hand mug, or whatever version they want in pick-up games. Do you want your Patrols to play each other? Would Soccer work just as well? I am not understanding the opposition to the football prohibition

[Eagledad 2783]

>>Traditional capture the flag can accomplish the same goals as Laser Tag

[Oak Tree 15]

I don't think too many specific rules get in the way of a good program. I do generally agree with Barry that it would be nicer to have Cubs camping as dens, Scouts playing laser tag, and allowing for some amount of retesting.

 

The place where I think that the rules interfere is where they take things that should be simple and make them hard. We get people posting on the forum in a panic that they haven't filed the right tour permit and might have to cancel a trip. We have people saying that if their BALOO leader cancels, they'll cancel the trip for everyone.

 

"Mr. Scoutmaster, we've had a long, hot day working. Can we take a quick dip in the stream?"

"Sorry, we don't have a 100-foot 3/8 inch rope to use as a lifeline. You'll have to stay out of the water."

 

We were at a Cub camporee. A woman from district walked through and starting quizzing us - "Where's your locked, ventilated container for your fuel?"

 

I remember Kahuna saying he stayed away from the waterfront after getting chewed out for walking in to the deserted beach to ask the director a question.

 

I think that when people focus too much on the rules, that detracts from the program.

 

Does it dramatically affect my ability to offer a good program? No, I don't think so. But then again, I'm the guy who has a favorite passage in the G2SS: "A responsible adult supervisor, who understands his or her responsibility and the elements of safety, can exercise discretion regarding certain procedures while maintaining safety."

 

I think there are a lot of other things that affect the BSA's image more than the rules.

[Beavah 205]

Yah, I think it's more misinterpretation and misuse of da rules that does harm to progam, not so much the real strictures themselves, eh? Worst are usually district level folks who aren't workin' with kids. Unit Scouters usually have a practical perspective, higher levels usually have more wisdom and less need to feel important.

 

But if we're makin' a list:

 

* BSA model Council Bylaws. Amateurish document, as the Chicago Area Council mess has demonstrated.

 

* Emphasis on regulation rather than screening/alertness for Youth Protection. Kids need hugs. Kids need to be able to have one-on-one conversations with adults sometimes. Teen suicide is a far bigger risk than teen sexual abuse, eh? Tryin' to hang sheets from da rafters in a youth hostel or a church basement or whatnot is just silly, and discourteous to other guests.

 

* Safe Swim Defense, in its NCS full throated glory. Way overkill for little benefit. Nuthin' sillier than units tryin' to do full SSD at the local pool or waterfront and gettin' in the way of the paid lifeguards. Nuthin' worse than da cold lake swim check hazing ritual for some new lads. There's a reason no other youth or waterfront program anywhere does it that way, eh?

 

* Cub Scout campin' rules. Very harmful to developin' an effective cub camping program.

 

* Cub Scout paddling rules. Restrictions are less safe in states where rivers are flat but lakes are big.

 

* Chainsaw/logsplitter restriction is unnecessary for high-school aged OA youth, who would both learn a lot and contribute a lot if da restriction weren't in place.

 

* Da summer camp medication tango.

 

* Some restrictions are unnecessary - go carts for Boy Scouts, Laser tag, Paintball, tethered hot air balloons, huntin' for older boy scout aged youth, low limits on monkey bridges, not allowin' the local farmer to drive kids on a tractor hayride, experimental-class aircraft, no Boy Scouts on general aviation flights to destinations, nonswimmer canoeists must ride with a certified life guard, etc.

 

Is any one of these restrictions a big deal? Nah. Just that every unnecessary restriction is one less way we have to reach a kid. More disappoinin' is the exponential growth of restrictions in recent years, none of which have really addressed da BSA's real risk profile.

 

I'm leavin' off things that everyone automatically ignores like no drivin' at night, no swimming in greater than 12 feet of water, or that we must be carryin' a copy of da BSA Wilderness Use Policy with us on a backpackin' trip. I'm also leavin' off da odd fictions that too many rules generate, like no cookin' veal marsala.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[evmori 11]

If I can't have veal marsala after going through the summer camp medication tango, I quit!

[Bob White 20]

It would seem these longer lists come more from lack of imformation than from actual barriers to a quality program.

 

As examples:

The problems in Chicago came more from not following the bylwas than from the quality of the bylaws thenselves.

 

Screening of adults and barriers to abuse are the biggest part of the Youth Protection program.

 

Sexual abuse and sex related problems with teens affect far more teens than teen suicide. BSA cannot effect teen suicide directly, but when you look at the major causes of teen suicide you fine things that the BSA programs do address such as drug and alcohol abuse, sexual abuse, and personal responsibility.

 

Safe Swim Defense was designed and implemented because water related activities were for many years the most common cause of fatal and near fatal accidents in the BSA. The BSA does not select leaders, and not all leaders are as careful with the decisions they make in protecting other people's children as they are with their own.

 

Safe Swim Defense and the other water related regulations are there to save childrens lives. To be willing to put scouts in an environment that we know is dangerous without being willing to take a few basic steps to provide a safe and controlled activity would be irresponsible and as proven by past experiences it can be fatal.

 

Thousands of councils and districts put on fun and exciting cub camps each year and stay within the safety precautions of the BSA. It would be interesting to know of other organizatioons resonsibible for serving as many youth that the BSA does, who put on camps with no safety regulations and can show the low accident rate that the BSA has.

 

Cub rowing and paddling is more dangerous on large lakes than on flat rivers? That statement suggests that Cubs on large lakes are able to go anywhere they want, or that flat water rivers have no currents. The BSA's regulations are simple and effective. "flat water ponds or controlled lake areas free of powerboats and sailboats. It is not the size of a lake that makes it dangerous it is the lack of control on the part of the adult supervision that creates the danger.

 

What part of Cub camping rules are prohibitive from having a good Cub program? Cubs are encouraged to camp often. District and councils are steadiling creating more opportunities for cubs to have overnight camping experiences, many councils have developed camps with facilities specifically designed to enhance the cub camping experience. Special training is provided to make more units comfortable and prepared to take Cubs camping.

 

There are rarely minor injuries with chain saws and log splitters. Accidents usually include the loss of a body part or death from trauma or arterial bleeding. There were over 40,000 deaths and serious accidents last year from chain saws. So you can see that many adults using them have little idea how to handle them safely let alone allow a teen to use them. If you believe that 1600 teen suicides is a concern we need to address then you must admit that 40,000 fatalities and injuries with chainsaws needs our attention as responsible leaders as well. Chainsaws are an unnecesarry tool for most scouting activities and far to great a risk for you to place on someone else's child.

 

Summer camp medication is handled differently in different camps depending on the the professional decisions of the medical staff at each camp. If you have concerns with a specific council or camp you should share them directly with that council. However it is the licensed medical personnel who are legally responsible and they will do what they feel is need to protect lives and stay within their legal responsibilities.

 

Many restricted activites are created by 1)they are unrelated to the the program, 2)they have a known history of high accident or fatality rate in the case of an accident. 3)they have elements that are inconsistent with the values or inage of scouting.

None of these activities are vital to a quality program and the program has survived for decades before they even existed. It's funny the number of adults who are upset that the BSA won't let scouts play an electronic game of laser tag, but God forbid a scout bring a tiny gameboy to an activity. Troop rules often have far less though or purose behin=d them than the national rules.

 

Almost every rule above exists to protect the safety of other peoples children, and they are based on the number of past incidents in scouting programs or based on recommended safegurds by experts in that field of activity.

 

Most unit rules come from an adults personal preference, and unlike the BSa rules they have nothing to do with the Methods of scouting or expert knowledge in a particular area of activity, and they are far more inhibiting in nature to a good program than the safey regulations of the BSA.

 

Not every adult will appriciate the safety concerns of protecting other peoples children, which is why training and leader selection is an important part of the program at every level.

 

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Trevorum 24]

Q: What BSA Rules get in the way of a Good Program/Image?

 

I can't think of any rules that actually interfere with Good Program, although I tend to agree with Barry that we are becoming increasingly protective of our youth. I'm not sure if this is a reaction to fear of lawsuits, or merely exaggerated assessments of risk.

 

OTOH, I can think of several rules that get in the way of a Good Image. At the top of the list are those rules that restrict membership.

 

[Bob White 20]

Wouldn't that depend on 1) what that image is 2) who gets to choose that image and 3)how that image is conveyed to and by the membership?

 

In this case the image of the BSA programs is determined by the executive board of the BSA. It is their role and authoruty not the unit volunteers or members.

 

The image that the BSA has chosen is on that sits very comfortably with the vast majority of the membership of our private organization. As well as with the vast majority of people outside of the organization.

 

It's a huge population and no decision will please everyone, so the people responsible for making the decision have selected and support the current rules. It then becomes the resposibility of the membership to understand and follow them.

[Eagledad 2783]

>>What rules of the BSA (and by rules I mean policies, procedures, et al) get in the way of you delivering a good program?

[Trevorum 24]

Yes, we all know that BSA membership policies are decided by high paid executives in Irving and not by the volunteers who actually work with youth.

 

"Image" is a slippery concept and probably means something different to you than it means to the next person. And certainly, BSA's image to the public is complex and multi-faceted. Nonetheless, one portion of that image that has loomed ever larger in the public eye in recent decades has been a direct result of BSA's discriminatory membership policies. Whether or not one agrees with those policies, it is a fact that they have created an image problem to the extent that many traditional funding sources have dried up, many traditional chartering partners have been forbidden to charter units, and many parents will not even consider having their school age sons becoming Scouts. And that's a shame because Scouting has so much to offer to those boys.

[Eagledad 2783]

>>And certainly, BSA's image to the public is complex and multi-faceted. Nonetheless, one portion of that image that has loomed ever larger in the public eye in recent decades has been a direct result of BSA's discriminatory membership policies.

[Trevorum 24]

Barry,

I did not see the statement as off-thread because the original poster asked about BSA rules affecting "image". Nonetheless, this is admittedly getting into Issues and Politics and so I'll defer from further comment in this forum.

[Horizon 97]

I will triple ditto that more problems come from misunderstood rules, rather than actual ones. However, the actual rules hurt us at the margins.

 

Example:

Scouts of single parents who work weekends. I hated having to tell Cub Scouts that they could not go camping since mom was working and no other family was in the area. And no, mom could not sign a legal document to allow me to take her son either. Maybe there was a way around it, but I had a lot of single parents who did not get to go camping with the Pack. Now, this was less than 5% of the Pack - hence my term regarding "at the margin."

 

There are probably others, but that is the one that I personally experienced as a Cubmaster.