Help! My Troop Has Fallen and It Won't Get Up!

[elizdaddio 10]

Hi All,

I have an issue and I'm looking for any suggestions about how to handle this tactfully. My son crossed over to a troop over a year and a half ago. We thought we were making the right choice, especially with the exciting scouting experiences we were promised.

I grew up in scouting and have been fortunate enough to have traveled both nationally and internationally through scouting. Most of my childhood was spent in the outdoors thanks to my scouting experience. My son had a great cub scouting experience and was very excited about Boy Scouts.

My disappointment with our current situation arises from the simple fact that our troop simply doesn't do much of anything. In the past year and a half, my son has set up a tent only three times and has only cooked outside once. As a troop, we go to only 2 campouts a year, one of which is summer camp. Majority of our "campouts" are held indoors, where the boys end up watching movies and eating ice cream. I've brought my concerns to the scoutmasters and the committee, to little avail. I have served with the troop the since my son crossed over, as both a committee member and "unofficial" asst. scoutmaster. All I want is the best scouting experience for my son and the other scouts. Transferring to another troop in our town is unfortunately not an option. Other parents along with myself have volunteered to take kids on overnights elsewhere, to only be told "no" by the current leadership. We do not have a unit commissioner at this time. I've even gone as far as to contact my council about starting a new troop. I guess the questions I have are; Has anyone ever experienced anything like this before? How have you dealt with this type of situation? Has anyone started a new troop? I have a group who would like to serve as our chartered organization, but I want to make sure I'm not going from the frying pan into the furnace. Any helpful suggestions or comments would be great. Thanks!

[Beavah 205]

Yah, elizdaddio, this happens occasionally, eh?

 

Sometimes a troop with a reasonable or strong program has a lot of leader turnover, and goes "dormant." Usually these inactive programs don't stay around too long; either they heat back up or they die.

 

I'm wonderin' who your "primary" leaders are and what they're like? (SM, key ASMs). Inactive programs usually have very reluctant leaders who would be happy to pass the baton to anybody else willin' to give it a go. That is by far the first choice. Get some of those other interested parents and choose lots for SM, sign up 'em all as ASMs, and get crackin'. I expect the only reason current leadership says "no" is because they feel they have to go and don't want to.

 

You can also turn to the COR to try to "goose" a transition along, eh?

 

But if for some reason you can't finesse a transition because a few egos are highly invested in an inactive program, then you can always fall back to "start a new troop," recognizin' it will kill the old one. If you've already ID'd a CO that will be supportive and active, next step is to identify some seed money/gear, and then yeh might make a go of it. It's hard startin' from scratch, though. Yeh need to try to find at least one "old hand" to help out, and a successful "partner troop" to really make a good go of it.

 

I'd look to tryin' to transition your current troop as a first step.

 

Beavah

 

[John-in-KC 311]

Welcome to the Forums.

 

Beavah and I were writing almost simultaneously. He has much in his post worthy of careful and prayerful consideration.

 

Allow me a moment of blunt speaking: Whether you decide to rebuild your existing Troop program or start a new Troop, expect to put in several years of dedicated service. You may even have the job beyond your own sons' time in the program!

 

If I understood what you wrote, and can summarize it in a sentence: Your son (with you as a Scouter) is in a Troop which is just not delivering the promise of Scouting to its youth. You do not think the existing leadership will hand over the reins.

 

Further, you do not have a second Troop in the town. You are contemplating opening a second Troop, one which will deliver the program and allow the young men to grow and develop.

 

Those are the messages I intend to address. If those were not the messages you sent, please clarify.

 

Let's start with basics: A new Troop needs:

- 5 youth members. That's the floor to charter.

- A Committee Chairman and at least two other Members of Committee.

- A Scoutmaster.

- A Chartered Partner who will live up to the tenets of the BSA Charter Agreemnt.

 

If you have those, you have the potential to open up shop.

 

I urgently recommend:

- Scouter Training for all adults as you start this. Set a standard of commitment to the BSA training regimen for adult leaders: Fast Start, YP, Merit Badge Counselor, New Leader Essentials and either Scoutmaster Fundamentals or Troop Committee Challenge. Learn what right looks like, make "delivering the promise" be the touchstone for all Scouters.

 

- Your proposed Chartered Partner commit to really fulfilling his side of the charter agreement: Facilities, leader approval, support!

 

- Work with the District Committee to leverage the opportunities of the scheduled program: With Camporee, Klondike, and LT summer camp, you just reduced your own planning burden for outdoor activities to 9 months from 12.

 

- Get with the Packs in the area: Send out a Den Chief as soon as you can. The best way to get boys for your Troop is to provide reachback program support to one or more Cub Packs.

 

- Understand that in creating a start-up, you and your proposed CC are making a five year committment (my opinion) to a new Troop. I've seen the consequences in a start-up with the founding SM steps aside at the 3 year mark because "he thinks he can." You want good systems and good people in place before you move along.

 

Others will discuss other things. I hope collectively we give you food for thought.

 

YIS(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[anarchist 10]

elizdaddio,

 

If you want to, we can talk "coup d'etat", but we need more info on your troop...numbers. patrols, age ranges...and more importantly the thinking behind such a lack luster, dying program? What do the old guys say in defense of doing nothing? Why do they turn down your efforts to do more? It's information needed to brain storm....

 

But basically the best way to work this might be in short; first you get your SM leader specific training and continue to suppliment with CPR, Safety afloat, safe swim etc...become a strong ASM- not committee member. That is, If you have the gumption and the will to stick it out for the long haul ....

 

Then you simply embrace the patrol system...talk to the CO/COR and let them know that you want more for your son and that YOU are willing to do the heavy lifting. Tell them that you respect the "old stick in the muds" but your boys want even more...who can resist that? Let him (COR) know that you are going to work within the troop system but your patrol will suppliment its activities. If this goes over ok...then let the Scoutmaster know that your sons patrol wants to do more on it's own no skin off his nose.... (your DE or Unit commissioner can help here if needed...visit a few roundtables get their insight on your troop's situation...you might get some idea as to why the troop is so weak).

 

And then work to get your son's patrol really active...you do not need a troop for campouts...do your own as a patrol...make them fun and scout skill effective. Go on patrol hikes, patrol raft trips, patrol canoe trips, patrol fishing trips, support your district camporees (if they are good) by getting the patrol to represent the troop...and be sure to invite other patrols to come along...

 

BTW with the COR on your side (and how could they not want you to help your son and his buddies and how can you possibly be a threat to the old guys?)The SM should not then be in a position to say "no" to anything that does not conflict with his anemic program...In any case he has no right to say that like minded families can not take their children camping.

 

As you do these things have the patrol give reports during troop meeting complete with pictures (I LOVE DIGITAL cameras) to the boys "left" behind...you may be surprised to see more folks tagging along on your activities to see what the fuss is...and before long, if done quietly, helpfully and insidiously the old guy just leaves and the troop has a new lease on life.

 

I have been down this road -it can be very effective...but you have to be willing to stay to the finish...you will need the help of a few other patrol families and you can't leave the other families in the middle of the river when you get tired. Building or rebuilding a quality program is hard work. Doing it from inside is almost as hard as starting a new troop maybe harder, sometimes. The big difference from starting a new troop is you start with warm bodies and a structure and perhaps some equipment...no recruiting 'fight' and no splitting up of friends...but it has to be done with finnesse.

 

let us hear how you do...

 

anarchist

[jambo 10]

Dear " eliz -daddio ", It hurts me to hear that Scouting, you and me have experienced, is not happening today. With all the training courses,(basic,start ups and even woodbadge ) they are not teaching the most important element, that is to have an active,adventurous,interesting, challenging program for the boys. The philosophy of " Boy run troop ", without the experienced guidence, is not working. By the time boy leaders find out what they are doing and learn from their mistakes. Half of the troop will be joining another unit next door to you. I feel sometimes, units should be consolidated, so as to maximize the adult help and leadership. What you need is a young energetic man ( preferably with scouting experience) volunteer to lead the boys. He should be able to ignite and motivate them becoming scouts, and guide them to adventure. If he becomes a Scoutmaster...then get out of his way...and let him run the Troop, the way he knows. And.you will see the troop grow, like our Baden Powel did , would have done it in the old days. Read my comments on other sites. Wishing you Scouting...jambo

[ASM59 10]

Welcome!

 

I really would like to add my 2 cents here, but I am also of the opinion that we need more information.

 

Let me summarize some of the questions that have been asked:

 

What kind of response did you get when bringing your concerns to the Scoutmasters?

How about the committee?

How do they justify the current way things are being run?

 

Does your existing Scoutmaster or Assistant Scoutmaster(s) act like they want to be in their positions? Is there an ego problem with these leaders (gotta be done "my way")?

 

Have you talked to your COR (Charter Organization Representative)?

If so, what kind of response do you get?

Does your COR understand how things are supposed to be run?

 

Have you talked to anyone at the Council or District level regarding the situation?

 

Let us know...

 

ASM59

[local1400 10]

But what do the boys want? Perhaps in the past some Scouts didn't want to camp so the leaders didn't want to waste their time planning events. But the PLC should be doing the planning. Good luck elizd.

[Pack378 10]

Sounds good to me:

 

1. talk to SM

2. talk to committee

3. talk to charter rep.

4. talk to council

5. talk to new charter rep.

6. talk to surrounding packs for recruitment

7. Get Trained

8. Go camping every month like you are supposed to!

 

Ready...... Set............. Go.................

 

I have always said "If you don't like the way your unit is being run, change it, or start your own" .

[Gunny2862 11]

elizdaddio, as you can see from the above comments we really want to help you but we need some clarification about the situation.

 

Does the current Scoutmaster crew: a)have what it takes? b) still want to do the right thing? or c)just want to hold on to their positions?

 

Are the boys misguided and think this is how it should be? Do they as a whole want something more but are living in an adult run Souting world?

 

Really won't let parents come along on campouts - at all? Danger sign to me. Is the leadership in question just the Scoutmasters or the Committee also or does it also run up into the District or Council levels where you are?

 

The suggestions given by the other posters are good but we can all give better if you can shoot out a few details. Good luck and Good Scouting!

[ASM857 10]

Elizdaddio

 

I feel your pain, our troop had a similar situation due to lack of intrest on old leadership. We just pulled up our bootstraps and got going,I would say it's easier to fix than start new. Starting at the patrol level is truly boy lead,get another parent and show the rest of the troop how much fun outdoor outings can be. Have them capture the flag take pictures on the hike or outing to share at troop meetings.

Thats my two cents

YIS

Doug

[acco40 95]

I vote for "fix" and not for "new."

 

A word of caution about patrol outings. One, they need Scoutmaster approval. Two, once Scoutmaster approval is obtained, they don't need adult leadership at all (may have, but not required).

 

One "sneaky" way if your SM puts the kabash on your plans it to have a "non-scouting" outing. Nothing prevents your son getting together with his friends (who happen to be in his patrol) and going camping (and following BSA guidelines). Just make sure the boys and parents know that you are doing this on your own, not as a troop or patrol. My son has organized many a laser tag outing in this way. I don't help him do this and make sure the boys and adults know it is a non-scouting event.(This message has been edited by acco40)

[jambo 10]

To Beaver Scouter:

 

I had so many hits, that I just did not have the time to answer them all . I am in a rush, since I was invited to attend one of our local scouting events. Most of the time , I keep my opinions to myself, because I don't want to argue with inexperience people in Scouting. jambo-www

 

Please forward this to our forum readers, Thanks . jambo

 

Wow !What a reply , from so many of you, Thank you ! I barely have enough time to answer you all.

_________About our glorious UC commissioners ? I will withhold my comments until further notice. I will tell you stories later on , that will curl your hair.(ha,ha)

__________Did you ever see the BSA national by-laws ? Well, you should...it is as large as the Bible, and it deals about every subject imaginable. It took me 3 hours to read it, since it was written in legal language, and I still could not comprehend it.

________Our bus at first was owned by the Troop, then we had the title transferred to our Church, We had 3 adults, who had CDL licenses, and one father was a mechanic. Our Insurance was not a commercial one , but a Non profit one, limited driving type.Oh, yes we still had our BSA decals, we sort of disobeyed DE request to remove them.Every one thought it was our Troop's bus .

_______The Charter organization usually does not want to bother with this equipment left behind by disbanded unit. They call the council to get rid of it.

______Clarification on my opinions ? Well, you see the BSA does not tell about these so called "odd and geeky "stories, you usually hear them , at the coffee clutches, at roundable, scouter dinners,camporee/jamboree ,from Scout leaders who have left Scouting or got dismissed by an over bearing Committee Chairman, who most likely had a personality conflict with this unit leader.

________I have to talk to my ex chairman,who was much more involved with OA, then I. He is the one who told me about the OA chapter that got disbanded ! He was pretty high in the professional leadership at the regional office. ( that is above the Council and below the National hierarchy ) He was my friend,and we discussed many good and bad attributes of our organization. He also, indicated to me that he had very little input to change, correct certain BSA policies. I as a volunteer, I could do much more then he did,. because he had to tow the line, for he could be fired. He had a nice house and a family to look after , and he could not afford to go against some of the policies.

Thanks for your opinions fellow Scouters,.." live and learn " jambo

 

 

[elizdaddio 10]

Thank You All so much for the replies. You've given me a lot of useful and insightful information to ponder. I'm at the point now that I REALLY want to make this troop work. Many of you asked for clarification so, I'll do my best. The troop was started over 30 years ago. The SM who started the troop is still the current SM. In his mind, this is "His Troop". He has a great deal of knowledge about scouting although he was never a scout himself. I feel he genuinely loves the troop, hence why he's still there. The CC is one of his former Eagle Scouts, who's son is currently in the planning stages of his Eagle Project. He is VERY protective of the SM. If you have an issue, you need to speak with him, not the SM. This makes the situation VERY tense. The Asst. SM's son is also in the planning stage for his Eagle Project as well. Both boys will have their Eagle within the year. My wife and I have already had several meetings with the CC and the Asst.SM regarding our concerns. Their response has been a lot of promises with virtually no follow through or support. Our concerns range from things such as no real outings, to more serious things such as alchohol being sold by our CO at scout fundraisers. Although a few families boycotted the fundraiser this year, because of the alchohol, the event still continues. When I've brought up my concerns to the leaders, I was informed by the CC that I was being too "critical" of the troop. I am the "unofficial" Chartered Organization Representative, which provides me with virtually no "pull". Due to lack of leaders, I'm the recently drafted COR, and a CM. The current leadership has no plans in the future to leave, so in essence, I'm in a bind. As long as the CC and SM are in charge, I firmly believe that things will remain the way they are. They haven't been open to any new ideas and don't seem interested in changing at all. Last year, the SPL wanted to go to the council Klondike Derby and brought his request to the Committee. The SM denied the request because they haven't had enough "winter camping experience". I asked the SM "How are they going to get experience if they aren't allowed to do anything?" The SM informed me that it was his decision and it was final...end of story. The kids always enjoy the events that we do have. We get together about every 3 months for the troop version of an "outing". Who wouldn't like ice cream and movies while sleeping indoors? My sixth grade students do that same thing every weekend! Most of the parents don't seem to mind because their kids are having "fun". Unfortunately most of the parents have no experience with what scouting is supposed to be, so they have no reason to be upset. Since most of the boys joined scouting, these events are all they've known. When we joined a year and a half ago, there were 8 boys. Last year, my wife and I took on the job of recruitment. We planned open houses and get-togethers for the packs and troop. We now have about 20 boys in 2 patrols with one group desginated as the "leadership patrol" which consists of 3 boys of higher rank who used to be PL or APL. As of now, there has never been a PLC to plan events. Until now, all events have been planned, at the last minute, by the CC and Asst. SM with the approval of the SM. The SM never attends overnights due to health concerns. The CC truly is the acting SM although the SM still has final say over everything. Neither the SM or CC see anything wrong with the way the troop exists now. Unfortunately, neither do most of the parents since they have no idea what their boys are missing in the real world of scouting. Myself, another frustrated leader (another CM) and a parent are taking our sons and a group of scouts on an outing this weekend to try to show them what scouting is supposed to be. It is an international camporee, so here's hoping. This event was literally planned without the approval of the SM or CC. I don't want the troop to be like this and I don't want my son's, or any other boy's scouting experience to be this. So, I guess I'll ask a couple of more questions; How can I handle a situation where the SM and CC want little or no change? How can I show the other parents what scouting is supposed to be? Should I involve the council at this point? I have been in contact with the council and a local organization about starting a new troop. Both have been very receptive, but the idea of leaving this troop sickens me. I need to make this work. Some have suggested training. I've taken every training I can fit into my schedule, but nothing has prepared me for this. I hope this offers more insight into my dilemna. Any further suggestions would again be most appreciated. I've read every one everyone has sent me, repeatedly. Please keep 'em comin'and I'll keep you posted. Thanks! - Elizdaddio

[BrentAllen 10]

You say the SM has a great deal of knowledge about Scouting. If he does, he sure isn't applying it. What makes you think he has a great deal of knowledge? Sounds like he has no idea!

 

We joined a Troop back in March that we have a difference of philosophy with. Nothing nearly as bad as you are dealing with, but not what I want for my son. We are starting our own new Troop. After going to summer camp with this troop, I decided the easier path was to start a new unit.

 

If I was in your shoes, I wouldn't have any trouble deciding what to do. That Troop is too far gone to rehabilitate - start a new Troop with your son and his friends, and do it the right way. Good luck!

[ASM59 10]

"I am the "unofficial" Chartered Organization Representative, which provides me with virtually no "pull"."

 

Are you or are you not the Charter Org Rep? If you are, this answers all your problems. The Troop belongs to the Charter Organization. If you are the rep, you have the right to dictate how you expect the program to run; the philosophy. If the SM and CC are not on board with your philosophy, you have the authority to replace them. This may open up a new set of problems for you, but it can be done.

 

If you have to get a new SM and CC, make sure they get training. If you keep the old SM and CC, make sure they understand the new philosophy and again get them some training.

 

Good Luck,

ASM59