ASM's feel SM is not contributing enough

[Crossramwedge 10]

I am CC of a troop and have a son in the troop. After having a talk with the ASM I find that they do not believe that the SM is performimg his job. These ASM are there for every campout if possible and contribute more money, ideas, time and resources individually than the SM. The ASM and SM all have boys in the troop. What really got them upset (among some other things) was when the SM was asked if he was going to be able to make it to summer camp and his reply basically was that he was not going to waste one of his weeks vacation to attend and besides it will be to hot. Earlier in the spring he had informed the troop that he was not going to be able to go on any summer camp outs until the fall. No real explaination. The SM is a good guy as are the ASM's. The SM son is the SPL and does a very good job. Even with this problem the Troop is stable. The ASM have not asked me to talk to the SM. I believe that the SM will be gone in another year on his own accord. So I think the best thing to do for now is to just keep an eye on things and if it starts to effect the Troop negatively then step in. SO guys what do you think?

[PeteM 10]

How is the troop functioning?

 

Is it Boy Run or do you want it to be Adult run?

 

Are the Scouts advancing and are they enjoying being part of the "Game with a Plan"?

 

What do the Scouts feel the role of the adult leaders should be?

[scottteng 11]

Sometimes the more hands off a SM is the better. We have all run into the control freaks that want to gravitate to that position. If everything is running smooth let it be. Sounds like a good delegater to me. Have a coffee chat maybe something else is going on that he does not want the boys troubled with that is causing the no camping for him. Added work pressure a new commitment to something else.

[Oak Tree 15]

Given the information that you've given us, your approach sounds pretty reasonable. Waiting is certainly the least divisive short-term option.

 

My sense would be that the only other option you might consider would be to get a new Scoutmaster. If the current SM is basically retired on the job, he might be willing to step aside if there was someone else who was ready to step up. For that to work, though, you'd want to talk to the SM and see if that's his opinion, and you'd need to have someone else who was willing to take on the job.

 

Since you're the CC, it would be reasonable for you to have some conversations with the SM about how things are going. How's the troop doing? How's he doing? Is his work making it hard for him to devote the time he'd like to?

 

Tell your ASMs how much you appreciate them and the work that they do.

 

A system like this can actually work just fine. There are troops where the SM is something of a figurehead and the ASMs do the actual work. Really helps if the ASMs understand and are ok with the model.

 

So, I'd say wait, but keep talking with everyone.

 

Oak Tree

[ScoutNut 147]

You stated - "I believe that the SM will be gone in another year on his own accord."

 

The best thing to do is to clarify that "I believe" part. Have an informal chat with your SM. Find out how things are going, how he feels the Troop is doing, and what his plans are for the future.

 

If he is indeed planning on this being his last year, then you should start NOW to think about his replacement. Ask him his opinion on his ASM's. Are there any who your SM & you feel would do a good job as SM? Perhaps the SM would be willing to delegate some of his SM duties (summer camp?) to see how the potential replacements work with the boys.

 

I would not act like you are kicking him out, but if he is planning to leave you should not wait until he is gone to start to look at replacements. The SM might like being in a mentor role. If might rekindle some enthusiasm.

 

[John-in-KC 311]

How often do you have a quiet cup of coffee with your SM, away from Troop meetings and Troop Committee? The two of you need to have a common vision of what the Troop should be in 6 months, a year, and two years!!

 

Then you need goals...

 

Finally you need ways and means...

 

Input from your ASMs can be useful, but it does not replace your own eyes, ears, and judgment. Your SM may have a new day job, and may only have a week of vacation. I'd be wont to give that over to Scouting and forfeit time with my wife and kid (if I still had a wife).

 

What PeteM, Scott, and Oak Tree all said applies!

 

[scoutldr 732]

We are talking like the CC hires and fires the SM. Did I miss that memo?

[Crossramwedge 10]

The troop is Boy ran and the Scouts are advancing and enjoying themselves. The adults mainly advise. I do believe that the SM has job pressure as well as other types of pressure. As far as him moving on in a year or so , I heard it from 2 or 3 sources from in and out of the troop. Not him personally.

 

What gets the ASM goat is the fact that the SM does not show up for the campouts as well as other minor functions and the statement about he was not going to give up one of his weeks vacation to go to summer camp did not set well with them. Their position is that they are in the same boat vacation and pressure wise and still get the job done. As far as ego goes I do not believe that any of the ASM are aspiring to become SM probably because of some of the same type pressures that the SM has. The ASM are doing a great job and in reality we do not even miss the SM when he is not there. I do tell the ASM how appreciated they are because of all the hardwork they do. The SM is really a nice guy also. I must admit that I have better relations with the ASM because I am around them more at functions where the SM does not show up. These guys have all been in Scouting for years. I was involved in Cub Scouting (still am) but when my son moved up 3 years ago I started attending BSA functions and the next thing you know I am CC. Except for a couple of problems, things are going pretty good. I want to be open minded. I know that the SM has his side. I am just going to watch the situation and see how things develop. This problem seems to be minor compared to some of the other things I have read on ths Forum. Thanks for your advice.

[Lisabob 13]

Based on your last comment about how the ASMs who are complaining also don't want to be SMs due to other outside pressures, I suggest you remind your ASMs that they're lucky to have this guy as the SM. He was willing to do what they apparently are not, and if they don't want to step up then perhaps they should limit their criticism to that which is constructive.

 

At the same time, the SM probably could have been a bit more sensitive to how his comments would come across.

 

I'd also encourage you and your charter organization rep (if they're even remotely involved with the actual function of the troop) to start talking now about a recruiting plan for down the road. Because it sounds to me like the troop might benefit from casting a broader net when it is time to choose the next SM. Not that anyone in your current pool of ASMs is necessarily doing a poor job - but they sound like they're not interested and too busy.

[John-in-KC 311]

Crossramwedge, you said in part

 

"I want to be open minded. I know that the SM has his side."

 

Go back and look at both your Troop Committee Guidebook and your Scoutmaster's Handbook. Both talk of the working relationship between SM and CC.

 

All of us who serve as Scouters owe the youth in the program time cross-talking with each other outside of meetings and functions. I just got off the phone with my Crew Advisor not an hour ago, talking about exactly ONE young man and how we are going to handle him.

 

As far as selection and retention of leaders, there is a process from the National Council:

http://www.scouting.org/commissioners/resources/18-981.pdf As Scoutldr intimates, if the process works right, the Chartered Partner, the Committee, and the SM work together to find leaders. The COR is the approving authority.

 

And lest we forget, here are the basic duties of a SM, as defined in "Selecting Quality Leaders":

 

Scoutmaster

 

Position Description:

The Scoutmaster is responsible for training and guiding youth leaders in the operation of the troop, and for managing, training, and supporting his or her assistant Scoutmasters in their role.

 

Scoutmaster Duties

Conduct the Boy Scout program according to the policies of the Boy Scouts of America.

Train youth leaders by conducting, at least yearly, an introduction to leadership and a team-building workshop.

Conduct an annual troop program planning conference to assist youth leaders in planning the troop program.

Conduct a monthly patrol leaders' council meeting to plan weekly troop meetings and conduct troop business.

Conduct, through the patrol leaders' council, weekly troop meetings.

Provide a minimum of 10 days and nights of camping yearly, including participation in a local council resident camp.

Assist in selecting and recruiting assistant Scoutmasters to work with the new-Scout patrol and the Venture patrol for older Scouts.

Work with the troop committee chair in developing a monthly meeting agenda that will address the needs of the troop.

Conduct Scoutmaster conferences for all ranks.

Participate in Boy Scout Leader Fast Start Training, New Leader Essentials, and Scoutmaster and Assistant Scoutmaster Leader Specific Training.

Provide the necessary framework (using the BSA's Youth Protection program) for protecting the young people in your troop from abuse.

See that activities are conducted within BSA safety guidelines and requirements.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[Crossramwedge 10]

The CO rep is very involved troop member for several years himself. He is very aware of the situaton and we have chatted about it. Just do not want to lose any good men over this. SM as well as ASM. But as far as the ASM stepping up, in my opinion from what I see they (in their Position ) have stepped up and continue to step up. They just would like the SM to step up more. After all he is the SM. Delegation goes so far, but the one delegating also should get his hands a little dirty every now and then. They just would like a little more physical participation from the SM. As far as taking over SM, the ASM guys are covered up with OA, District functions, and volunteer for all sorts of Community service and still are their at every BSA meeting and try to make every camp out possible. If they can do that, they are wondering why the SM is not able to do so. To step up and become SM may mean their reinquishing what they do in other areas of community service thats just as important to them and the community. On the other hand becoming SM and giving everything else up to do so may be like a vacation to some of them.

[John-in-KC 311]

BTW, welcome to the campfire!

 

Now I see the challenge a bit more clearly.

 

The cross-talk between the SM and the ASMs is thin. It hasn't hurt your Troop ... yet. It may, someday, bite you on the backside, and eventually to hurt the program we are here to deliver to the youth. There are hints of this both in your initial post and in your most recent post.

 

It sounds to me like a good old-fashioned cracker barrel is in order. I'd recommend the players be you, the SM, and the ASMs, and perhaps the COR. A neutral person such as your UC or one of the ADCs (you want someone well-qualified to draw folks out and get the challenges, as well as brainstormed solutions onto the table) would be a handy person as well.

 

Two starting points for tools to help guide the cracker barrel are:

 

The Unit Commissioner worksheet:

http://www.scouting.org/forms/34126.pdf

 

The Troop or team Self Assessment:

http://www.scouting.org/forms/33618/33618-27.pdf

 

I say starting points very deliberately. I'll bet dinner what will arise will include "How YOU should be running things" (mutual expectations), "how YOU should be doing things" (division of labor), "I ONLY HAVE two hours a week" (abilities to serve), and levels of training. Someone who can actively listen, who can manage issues (eat the elephant one bite at a time), who can refocus YOU to I or WE and who can keep the "storming" group dynamic in check will be a huge aid to success.

 

Finally, manage the time. I don't think you'll come to resolution on everything in 1-2 hours, but after a couple of hours, folks are going to hit the wall. Manage the issues, manage the time.

 

Beavah, you got anything to say???

[scottteng 11]

More communication is always better than less. You may not like what you hear but at least you know. A lot of things cause people to be not as involved as others would like. For example I had always wondered why the family of our most gung-ho scout was not more involved well at summer camp parent visit I got my answer he has been battling cancer while working and has not felt well enough to be involved and he envied all of us for being able to go on trips. Get away from the hustle and bustle and have a frank discussion rather than relying on hearsay. The I don't want to burn a weeks vacation may sound more like my boss said I can't take vacation because it's our busy season. Hopefully if he is planning on leaving in a year this will be shared with you as well so appropriate steps may be taken

[BrotherhoodWWW 10]

You've read plenty of good advice so far. The ASM that is also very involved in the OA perhaps may be doing all he can already and to have him change to SM could possibly result a negative impact on the youth. Despite the fact that "An arrowmans first responsibilty is to his own unit." I think sitting down with all involved first seperately and then as a group would be best and it may be the time to start looking for a new SM, but perhaps recruiting another ASM to fill in for the SM during camping may also help. Thus spreading the burden more than it is now. If the program is functioning fine with the SM's absence from camping trips your Youth deserve much credit for doing a fine job of running the program.

 

I personally would want a SM that is more motivated than the one you have but camping is only one part of the program. I belive it is this part that sets Scouting apart from so many other youth movements.

[MarkS 11]

To me Summer Camp is one of the big events of the year that needs at least some SM involvement. If his sked won't let him attend the entire camp, how about a compromise? Is the Camp close enough and does he have time to help the troop get to camp and check-in on arrival Sunday? What about helping the troop pack up and check-out on get-way Saturday? Does he have time to come to one day of camp mid-week? Maybe supervise OA elections if those are done in camp, or perhaps bring a treat for family dinner night if your camp has one of those. Nothing like ice cream at Summer Camp... etc, etc.

 

He should at least be making a phone call or two during the week to see how things are going.