Rumour Control

[WDL Mom]

Hi All,

 

I was at a meeting and "heard" that our Council is considering the following:

 

Webelos II would be "allowed" to join a Troop as soon as they turn 11 AND they would be "allowed" to also remain with the Pack and finish up the Arrow of Light AT THE SAME TIME.

 

The idea being that the WebII's are getting bored and we need to get them into a Troop sooner.... Though, I am not sure how many kids this would effect.

 

I do not see how a kid can be registered in two different levels at the same time. Does anyone else's Council or District run this? How has it worked?

[Lisabob]

I don't see how they can do this either. From whom did you hear this (ie, what position does that person hold) and are they reliable? I would seek clarification/verification before getting too worked up about it because at least on the face of it, it seems so ludicrous that someone must have (hopefully!) misunderstood or mis-stated the actual idea under consideration. Or possibly, this is something somebody said in a bull session - just "free thinking" - and not something that will actually be done or seriously considered, but you are now "hearing" about it anyway.

 

If, upon further investigation, you find that there IS a serious move in this direction then I think it would be worth talking to your district & council professional staff to ask them: "What *are* you thinking?!?" This sort of thing would look really, really bad for them if they got caught up in a membership # inflation scandal, which this could easily become. Beyond that, it is just stupidity. If the problem is that webelos IIs are bored, focus on improving the delivery of the webelos program rather than improperly using another program (troop) to "fix" it. Such short term solutions rarely work anyway.

 

 

 

 

 

[John-in-KC]

This is where you make contact with one of several people.

 

The first person you should contact would be your Unit Commissioner. One of the reasons he/she volunteers in Scouting is to help units, including rumor control.

 

If he/she and the Commissioner Service cannot help, the District Membership Chairman should be another resource. It's his job to manage the overall recruitment campaign in the district, so he/she should know the rules.

 

The third person is your friendly DE. He should know what changes the Professional Service is pushing down from the Council office.

 

As for this particular rumor, it sounds just like a ... rumor. While there can be concurrent enrollment in Boy Scouting and Venturing for young men, they are members of two distinct units under two charters.

[Eamonn]

It's been a long time since I was in Cub Scouting.

Still I thought (and I welcome any correction) Boys who are 10 may join a Troop if they have received the Arrow of Light Award or have finished the fifth grade.

If a Lad is 11 he should be in the Troop anyway?

This isn't moving them into the Troop early, it's when they should be there anyway!

In our area nearly all the Webelos Scouts cross over in the early spring, and the first year Webelos move to become Second year Webelos

School breaks for the summer at the end of May. This is when most Packs and Dens slow down for the summer.

We don't have a Third Year Webelos Scout program?So where would these Scouts go?

If a Lad hasn't reached or earned the AOL by the time he is 11 or finished fifth grade? I would want to take a long hard look at the program that is being offered.

Eamonn.

[gwd-scouter]

Our DE has suggested something like this before. Allowing Webs II boys to go to troop meetings for a couple of months before they turn 11. In those cases, these were a couple of boys that signed up on school night and the Pack had only one Webs Den of 4th and 5th graders. Also, in those cases, the Packs were struggling and the Webs Dens were folding so rather than lose the boys outright, he asked if they could go to troop meetings while still registered as Webs and then officially join the troop after they turn 11. We did not receive any of these guys so I don't know how it all turned out.

 

This past few months, a Webs II Scout from a struggling Pack our troop is working with has been coming to our Troop meetings. We have worked with him to finish up his few remaining requirements for AOL. In his case, he was the only 5th grader in a Webs Den that was having problems with consistent meetings and activities. He remained, however, registered with the Pack and did not officially register with our Troop as a Boy Scout until he completed his AOL requirements and, in fact, had turned 11 years old in the process. He joined our Troop back in March, but the troop participated in his AOL and crossover ceremony last night. We held off on his ceremony because his Dad was in training getting ready to be deployed to Afghanistan. Dad was home briefly this past two weeks and is leaving this Thursday.

[WDL Mom]

Hi,

 

I realize that this could all be rumour. I am not upset, more curious than anything.

 

I believe that our Webelos to BS transition was particularly poor this past year and this may be an attempt to address it.

 

My son will be 11 at the end of this upcoming August which is the beginning of 5th grade for him. He will be an "old" 5th grader. My understanding is that he could join BS in the fall and skip his entire Webelos II year. Which would be tough for him to do with me being the DL

 

I may check with my den and see when they all turn 11. Would be interesting to know how many kids this could effect. Though I don't see anyway for a kid to be registered and active at both levels. This sounds more like the LDS advancement where the boys move on their birthday, though I don't claim to have much knowledge of that program.

 

Gwd-scouter's situation sounds like a temporary fix to help a kid until they are old enough to register in BS. I am sure that this has probably happened in a number of places on an unofficial basis, not as District policy.

 

Hmmm, probably have to wait and see.

[evmori]

1st the correct term is Webelos not WebsII or any other variation.

 

2nd once an eligible Webelos registers with a Troop he is a Boy Scout he can no longer earn the Arrow of Light which is a Cub Scout award.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[John-in-KC]

OK, now I'm getting a different signal, and a different request for information.

 

Let's look for a moment at a BSA Fact Sheet. It's Bin Item 02-501F, and was last printed in 2006:

 

"Boy Scouting. A year-round program for boys 11 through 17 designed to

achieve the aims of Scouting through a vigorous outdoor program and

peer group leadership with the counsel of an adult Scoutmaster. (Boys also

may become Boy Scouts if they have earned the Cub Scouting Arrow of

Light Award and are at least 10 years old or have completed the fifth grade

and are at least 10 years old.)"

 

The following is my opinion: Once a boy migrates from Cubs to Boys, his Cub advancement is DONE. He should work on the Boy Scouting advancement system, using the eight methods of Scouting.

 

I suspect someone else here can back up my opinion with BSA policy.

 

That said, my then-bride and I held our son back a year at Kindergarten. We wanted the added maturity and socialization it would bring. This appears to be an increasingly common choice.

 

Son joined Cubbing at an age and grade appropriate level, and stayed with his class group up the line. He earned his Arrow of Light on time, and has since continued through Boy Scouting into Venturing. He's done quite well for himself: He will staff his second season at one of our Council camps, earned his Eagle with multiple palms, gone to Philmont, in short, had FUN.

 

There is nothing that says you have to follow the dictum to get to AOL. I will say that AOL is one of the few awards a youth carries into his life as a Scouter.

 

If he's ready to move up, get him engaged on finishing up Webelos badge, get the AOL, and move him across. BTW, offer that opportunity to other Cubs near his age. Nothing in the world says "February or else", or "school year end or else." Back in the day, I turned 11 in October and joined my Troop in January. That was 1967/8

[gwd-scouter]

Wow, a bit testy eh? True there is no such official term as Webs II, just as the word is Boy Scouts (not BS), helpful abbreviations though.

 

 

[mtm25653]

"My son will be 11 at the end of this upcoming August which is the beginning of 5th grade for him. He will be an "old" 5th grader. My understanding is that he could join BS in the fall and skip his entire Webelos II year. Which would be tough for him to do with me being the DL "

 

My youngest moved up to the troop in Sept of 5th grade, after earning his AOL in August. I remained the den leader of his Webelos den (and his older brother remained the den chief of that den) until they crossed over in February.

 

I didn't think it was right for me to either hold back my son (the youngest of 3 - he was more than ready for boy scouts) or abandon the den I had made a commitment to. Are you a leader just to be a leader for your son?

 

[WDL Mom]

Sometimes this mode of communication is a bit vague. Lets see if I can do a better job clarifying.

 

My question was (I thought) quite simple.

 

Had anyone seen a program where a boy was registered with a Troop and also continued to work on his Arrow of Light at the same time?

 

Apparently no one has seen this, other than trying to help a boy whose Webelos den had dissolved.

 

My Comment:

 

"My son will be 11 at the end of this upcoming August which is the beginning of 5th grade for him. He will be an "old" 5th grader. My understanding is that he could join BS in the fall and skip his entire Webelos II year. Which would be tough for him to do with me being the DL:)"

 

Was intended to reply to Eamonn whose email suggested to me that once a kid is 11 he should be in Boy Scouts. It isn't true in my son's case. Though I agree with mtm25653 and John-in-KC that there is nothing sacrosanct with a February crossover and if the boy meets the requirements, and is ready he should go on to Boy Scouts.

 

mtm25653...I tried to imply tongue in cheek, that my son wasn't going on to Boy Scouts at this time. He isn't ready. And to be honest, he wants to be with his buds. Maybe I needed to apply more smileys...

Though I find "Are you a leader just to be a leader for your son?" a bit harsh and certainly unnecessary.

 

evmori... I am well aware of the correct spelling of Webelos. Had you read my second post, you would have noticed I managed to use it corrctly TWICE! Apparently I managed to hit a nerve.

 

I apologize for my lack or clarity and I would respectfully request that folks be a bit kinder in their responses. This form of communication more than other types requires it.

[SSScout]

Not only should the Ws' get a program that will involve them and lead them on to being "loyal Scouts" (where did I hear that?), a creative CM will know to include his Ws in the leadership of the Pack. The younger Cubs should be able to look up to the Ws as examples (Wow! I'll get to do XY and Z when I become a W!), but the Ws should be encouraged to take on some leadership roles in the Pack. Good flag ceremonies, skits, knot tying demos, uniform wear, etc.

Don't let them become a CS elitist group, which only says to themselves (and as read by the younger Cubs) "Hey, when can I get out of this kiddie play group?" Include them, use them, appreciate them.

 

Let's see now, it was only sigalevety ump years ago that I was a Lion Cub and then a Webelos and then...

 

I seem to remember that when Lion Cub was eliminated, the graduation became Wolf, Bear, Junior Webelos , Senior Webelos. Am I remembering that right?

[RangerT]

As others have stated you CAN NOT be dual registered as a cub and a boy scout, period, BSA policies will not allow it nor are SM's allowed to let a boy scout earn the AOL once he is registered in the troop. Once he joins a troop he is no longer eligible for any cub scout advancement. Thats the way it is! My two sons, one got the AOL the other did not and at 11 yrs both crossed over to a troop and both are advancing well.

[Eamonn]

Help!!

I'm really confused!!

WDL Mom, you posted:

"Webelos II would be "allowed" to join a Troop as soon as they turn 11"

I get that!

In fact I thought it was ten and a half.

You went on to say:

"The idea being that the WebII's are getting bored and we need to get them into a Troop sooner.."

This I didn't get. As I thought most 11 year olds would already be in the Troop.

Scouts that had been held back a grade would more than lightly be in the Den with Scouts in the same grade as they are? Not always!! But most of the time.

As I understand it once you move from one grade to the next. You move -Ready or not!!

That is to say if you are in the Wolf Den and the Den moves on to become Bears. You start working on the Bear Book, even if you haven't completed all the Wolf requirements.

The same is true of the AOL,once the Den graduates you are done.

Advancement in Webelos is signed off by the Den Leader, Scoutmasters and ASM's shouldn't be doing Cub Scout advancement.

In many ways this teaches the young Lad a life lesson about setting and meeting goals.

There are of course exceptions to every rule.

While I didn't and don't agree with it, our one time Field Director started a "Pack" in a Day Care facility that cares for mentally handicapped adults. His argument was that they hadn't completed 5th Grade. While this might well be true, I know he only started the unit for the numbers.

But to answer:

" Had anyone seen a program where a boy was registered with a Troop and also continued to work on his Arrow of Light at the same time?

No.

He is either a Cub Scout or a Boy Scout, he can't be both. Once he is no longer a Cub Scout he shouldn't be working on Cub Scout advancements.

DE's and Councils have a lot of authority, but they can't rewrite the program!!

Eamonn.

 

 

 

 

[Beavah]

Yah, everybody's goin' off tellin' people they can't do this or that, it's not da program, yadda yadda yadda. I wonder if we'll ever get tired of it?

 

A boy can join a troop without earnin' AOL once he turns 11.

 

That same boy can choose to stay in his pack with his buddies to finish up AOL.

 

So aside from bureaucratic and computer issues why can't he do both? What's the reason in terms of what's best for kids and our service to them?

 

Yah, I can't figure any real reason not to, provided the troop is comfortable with acceptin' him out of season, so to speak. A few troops aren't, but most are pretty accommodatin'. I think we also have to remember that Council SE's are permitted to pilot program adaptations with National's blessing, and to waive some registration requirements as well. For example, I know a group that's currently workin' on a Varsity Team program for 11-14 year olds.

 

Practically, I'm not sure if ScoutNet automatically flips the registration out of Cubbing when a Boy Scout App. comes in, but that's administrivia for the council registrar to work around.

 

So I'm back to "Why not?" Why would this be bad for kids?

 

Beavah