Scoutbook logging for Advancement

[InquisitiveScouter 1656]

3 minutes ago, HashTagScouts said:

SM can get their QA check at SM conference

That is too late.  SM & ASMs should be doing "random sampling" of sign-offs to gauge instruction and completion of the requirements as stated.  That is, they mentor the instructors and evaluators...

[Eagledad 2779]

2 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

That is too late.  SM & ASMs should be doing "random sampling" of sign-offs to gauge instruction and completion of the requirements as stated.  That is, they mentor the instructors and evaluators...

I find SM conferences are fine for random sampling and quality checks. The SM only needs to check a few Scout Books to see a trend. More than that has the appearance of checking up on the scouts. 

Barry

[InquisitiveScouter 1656]

2 hours ago, Eagledad said:

I find SM conferences are fine for random sampling and quality checks. The SM only needs to check a few Scout Books to see a trend. More than that has the appearance of checking up on the scouts. 

Barry

Although the guidelines are very loose for SM conferences, I see what you propose as out of place.

So what happens when you find out Johnny does not know a skill, but says he did it once and got it signed off?  If you aren't observing the instruction and evaluations, how do you know the instructors and evaluators are teaching correctly?

"The conference is not a retest of the requirements upon which a Scout has been signed off. It is a forum for discussing topics such as ambitions, life purpose, and goals for future achievement, for counseling, and also for obtaining feedback on the unit’s program. In some cases, work left to be completed—and perhaps why it has not been completed—may be discussed just as easily as that which is finished."  G2A

[T2Eagle 902]

2 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Although the guidelines are very loose for SM conferences, I see what you propose as out of place.

So what happens when you find out Johnny does not know a skill, but says he did it once and got it signed off?  If you aren't observing the instruction and evaluations, how do you know the instructors and evaluators are teaching correctly?

"The conference is not a retest of the requirements upon which a Scout has been signed off. It is a forum for discussing topics such as ambitions, life purpose, and goals for future achievement, for counseling, and also for obtaining feedback on the unit’s program. In some cases, work left to be completed—and perhaps why it has not been completed—may be discussed just as easily as that which is finished."  G2A

There is a difference between a retest and probing with a scout about how well he knows a skill, how he learned it, how whichever scout worked with him played their role in testing him and making sure he had learned the skill, etc..  I never did the former, part of but certainly not the entirety of every SM conference I ever did included the latter.

Some scouts retain more some less, some scout-instructors were better than others.  SM conferences were a part of how I learned where all my scouts fell on those spectrums.  If I thought a scout really didn't have a skill I'd subtly work with my SPL and PLs to make sure the scout got the opportunity to review and work on it in the future so they did learn it better.  Same with the instructors.

For me, I always reminded myself that rank and advancement were means to an end.  I tried hard to not get caught up in "how can Johnny be First Class he couldn't tie a taut line hitch when I asked him."  I've learned and forgotten libraries full of of stuff over the years --- and truth be told to this day a taut line hitch usually takes me more than one try.

[InquisitiveScouter 1656]

9 hours ago, T2Eagle said:

There is a difference between a retest and probing with a scout about how well he knows a skill, how he learned it, how whichever scout worked with him played their role in testing him and making sure he had learned the skill, etc..  I never did the former, part of but certainly not the entirety of every SM conference I ever did included the latter.

Some scouts retain more some less, some scout-instructors were better than others.  SM conferences were a part of how I learned where all my scouts fell on those spectrums.  If I thought a scout really didn't have a skill I'd subtly work with my SPL and PLs to make sure the scout got the opportunity to review and work on it in the future so they did learn it better.  Same with the instructors.

For me, I always reminded myself that rank and advancement were means to an end.  I tried hard to not get caught up in "how can Johnny be First Class he couldn't tie a taut line hitch when I asked him."  I've learned and forgotten libraries full of of stuff over the years --- and truth be told to this day a taut line hitch usually takes me more than one try.

Agreed.  I'm more of the "How can Johnny be a First Class?? He never learned to tie a taut line hitch!" kind of person. 

[Eagledad 2779]

15 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Although the guidelines are very loose for SM conferences, I see what you propose as out of place.

So what happens when you find out Johnny does not know a skill, but says he did it once and got it signed off?  If you aren't observing the instruction and evaluations, how do you know the instructors and evaluators are teaching correctly?

Good question. The short answer is that the boys perform enough of these skills in their normal fun everyday routine activities to demonstrate the troop average level of skill proficiency.  Now, obviously including exercises in activities that require these is skills can be challenging. But, just one activity will demonstrate many skills from tying knots to leadership, and even living the Scout Law. Program activities provide the senior leaders and adults a wide view of troops skills proficiency. Skills proficiency, or lack there of, should be obvious to everyone. The program is maturing when the scouts observe trends of deficiencies and act to correct them.

Also, a scout should have more than one conference, or intimate conversation, with the adult leadership before a BOR. So, many in fact, the scout doesn't even know that their casual conversation about the family gave the adult some insight to  the scouts knowledge and experience in the troop program. These discussions can occur in the car during the drive to camp, or while backpacking to camp. A few minutes at a gas stop while drinking a coke. Scouts love to talk about themselves. Theoretically the scout could get his conference signed off during many of those discussions. The SM or adults should already know the answers to the questions in the conference the scout requested for sign off.

A program that operates this way is a lot of fun for the both the adults and scouts because the constant maturing is rewarding. Even parents notice it.

Barry

Edited August 18, 2023 by Eagledad

[InquisitiveScouter 1656]

26 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

The program is maturing when the scouts observe trends of deficiencies and act to correct them.

LOL.  This is a rare occurrence.  They keep observing the trends, but usually take no action to correct.  They talk a good game about how to fix something, often coming up with good ideas, but hardly ever implement their fix.  This is very annoying, but, in our Troop culture, the adults know not to step in and do it for them.

I have seen this malady in many organizations, including the military.  In exercise, after exercise, after exercise, you'd see the same "deficiencies".  They are supposed to be "Lessons Learned"... we often joked (on the inspection teams) that they were simply "Lessons Repeated"    We even implemented this in a Department of Defense-wide system: the Joint Universal Lessons Learned System (JULLS).  It's a database of "Start-Stop-Continue" if you will. Or, sort of a wiki on what went right, what went wrong, and how to correct.  But few military organizations (at least in my 26 years) seemed to have the bandwidth available to study them or learn from the successes and failures of others.  Often, it was just "Lessons Repeated."  Those that did study JULLS were often wildly successful.

Considering the age groups and stages of mental development we deal with in Scouting, I expect exactly what we are getting... a lot of "Lessons Repeated."  The mantra among our leaders is "Remember who you are dealing with."

I fervently hope you all reach a "mature program."

26 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Also, a scout should have more than one conference, or intimate conversation, with the adult leadership before a BOR.

Agreed.  Adult Association at work!!

Edited August 18, 2023 by InquisitiveScouter

[Eagledad 2779]

2 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

LOL.  This is a rare occurrence.  They keep observing the trends, but usually take no action to correct.  They talk a good game about how to fix something, often coming up with good ideas, but hardly ever implement their fix.  This is very annoying, but, in our Troop culture, the adults know not to step in and do it for them.

Yes, true. But often the adults expect action quicker than the scouts maturity allows. They just go a little slower because they don't yet have the life skills of acting on discovery. Or the scouts may not yet feel enabled to act freely. That happens a lot and youth learning to trust adults takes a while. Adults can say it all day long, but it's their actions that take to the scouts.

Mentoring is the skill of guiding the mentored to discover the problem and create and action. Those kinds of mentoring skills take a lot of practice and risks because human nature doesn't change until annoyance drives us to make the effort to change. But, sometimes the mentor has to cross the line to know the limits of mentoring discovery and change to pushing so hard that the mentored quit having fun and would rather stay home to play video games. 

Scouting for adults in a "scout run" program is a lot harder than in a "adult run" program because the adults in the scout run program mentor each scout individually. Where as adults in the adult run program guide, coach, and mentor by groups, leaving out individual decision making. For example. Scouts in an adult run troop tend to all dress exactly alike because that is no tolerance for individual choices in wearing the uniform. Adults in adult run troops tend to measure their program by how the scouts behave and look as a group.

On the other hand, the adults in the scout run program want scouts to discover their the value traits that lead to their choices by providing a safe environment where scouts aren't intimidated to make choices based from their personal values. We humans don't feel motivated to change our values until we find ourselves annoyed by our bad choices. The adults have to let the scouts make choices that end up as an annoyance to them. The parent in us adults struggle to watch scouts screw up.

Scout run troops eventually function better and with higher maturity than adult run troops because the scouts have disciplined themselves to serve each other, which results in fun program with great leadership. Youth run troops tend to have older scouts and have more fun. The scouts have learned and practiced the skills of planning fun activities and following through to make them happen. That takes a while, but when it happens, the adults struggle to keep up.

Barry

 

[curious_scouter 134]

On 8/2/2023 at 9:29 AM, Delphinus said:

when a Scout achieves the rank, the Troop Advancement Chair just checks the completion of that rank in Scoutbook.

this is what we do.  We have 50 active scouts.  They use their books to track advancement and honestly it's good because we allow any ASM to sign off requirements and we also allow Star Scouts who have been trained by the SM to sign off for First Class and under.  No way with that number of scouts and that number of authorized signers that we'd get everything via online SB anyway.  Keeping SB updated from their paper books would be a full time job.  I have considered finding a volunteer to do it though - it would be amazing to have data to give to the PLC that X Scouts need a certain set of requirements.  It's just not practical for us.

The ONLY time I make an effort to load every single requirement from the paper book to SB is for Eagle Candidates.  At the SM Conf I take a photo of their book and before they request their application from council I make sure Scoutbook reflects the dates exactly as signed off.

On that note, one other thing I might start doing is retro-filling Star and Life MBs in Scoutbook.  Otherwise Scoutbook "just decides" which MBs were used for which ranks and that puts the online info completely out of sync with the paper handbook and it makes the eagle application, signoffs, etc. a lot harder as the official individual advancement record from SB is completely different than their handbook.