Signs that your unit might be Adult Led

[fred johnson 936]

Perfect timing. 

 

http://scoutmastercg...-boy-led-troop/ 

 

Good article.  Nice and simple.  How it should be.  

[Stosh 3452]

Still some gold nuggets in this ground, stosh. 

 

Barry

I've visited this issue with the moderators in the past.  Hasn't really been all that effective.

 

How's about sticking to the topics on the forums and leaving the personal attacks out of it.  Let's work on the Scout Spirit kind of thing for a while and see how that works out.  I really can't see how the comment made here really moves the topic along any.

[Hedgehog 334]

My favorite one was from somebody on this forum, sorry I can't give proper credit....

but it was a story about scouts on a hike, and the SM was pulling up the rear, following the troop.....  and he had given the map and compass to the SPL.  I like the reactions I get from that story.

 

 

That was my story.  I started when the boys were doing an orienteering course.  Told the adults that the boys were in front, adults in back.  Started doing it on backpacking treks.  I've trained the guys based on my favorite Baden Powell quote -- "the best way to avoid getting lost is to always know where you are."  The stop and look at the map at every landmark -- cross trail, stream, change in elevation (valley or top), service road, etc.  They locate where they are, figure out what the next landmark is and how far away it will be.  Once, I let the boys go about a mile past the trail we were supposed to take. They eventually noticed and asked why I didn't tell them.  My response -- I'm not in charge.  The refrain fo the next year was, "Don't trust Mr. Hedgehog when your hiking, he won't tell you if you make a wrong turn."  Let's just say that they paid a lot more attention to the map after that.

 

This weekend, we were on a short hike from camp.  The scout leading the hike, stopped the group and told everyone that he thought we were going the wrong way since he hadn't seen a blaze since we took a side trail to get to a vantage point  and because the trail was going east when we should be going south.  We obviously on a trail and it was going straight just like the map showed.  I didn't have a map and really wasn't paying attention to the route they chose or where we were.  The scout suggested backtracking until we found a blaze.  His buddy agreed with him.  One of the other adults insisted that we were going the right direction.   I looked at the scout and said one word... "lead."  We backtracked, found the baze, went back to the intersection and confirmed that we had been going on the wrong trail.

 

OK, full disclosure... the scout is my son and he has hiked / backpacked over 200 miles in the three years since he joined Boy Scouts.  His buddy has been along for alot of those miles, included the 50 miler last summer.  Knowing how well they had been trained, it was easy to trust them. 

[Hedgehog 334]

What are things you see that might be a red flag that adults might be over stepping?

 

I think you may be looking at this from the wrong perspective.  The question really is what do you see that provides the boys with real opportunities for leadership.  

 

The refreshments at our Courts of Honor are organized by parents (for one a parent purchases the refreshments, for one an e-mail is sent out by a parent assigning a catagory of dishes for pot-luck and for one the parents do the cooking on grill).  However, the Court of Honor is run by the SPL and the other scouts.  Where the SM and ASM used to talk about outings, the ranking leader on the trip talks about it (an adult used to do this).

 

For outings, the PLC comes up with ideas for activities and I find places we can do that in my role as the ASM in charge of outings.  I make the reservations.  I send out the e-mail to scouts and parents and prepare the permission slip.  The SPL announces the activities at the meeting and collects the permission slips and checks (an adult used to do this).  On outings, we have a PLC meeting when we arrive on Friday night and discuss the plan for the weekend.  The adults to off to our own campsite and the boys are in charge for the rest of the weekend

 

For PLC meetings, the SM and ASMs guide the boys as to what they need to do to select themes and guide the SPL as to what should be covered.  The boys run the meetings and the adults only chime in when asked.  The adults publish the calendar which has the monthly themes, the COH dates and the dates of the outings. Our weekly meetings are run by the SPL (for the beginning) and the PLs (for the breakouts) and one PL and his patrol for troop activitiy. 

 

I could be and very likely am wrong, naive maybe, but I believe that while it might seem that much of this is a continuum, it really doesn't have to be.  It does seem to me that the transition could be much shorter, 

 

 

The length of the transition would depend on a lot of factors.  You identified a large factor -- leadership buy-in.  You need the SM, CC and ASMs on the same page.  Next, you need parent buy-in.  One factor is the number of scouts in the troop and their ages.  Much easier for a smaller group of younger scouts.  A lot more difficult for an existing troop with a variety of ages and over 50 scouts.  In those circumstances, I can tell you that it is a transition and the goal is to keep moving along that continum.

[Stosh 3452]

 

 

I think you may be looking at this from the wrong perspective.  The question really is what do you see that provides the boys with real opportunities for leadership.  

 

The refreshments at our Courts of Honor are organized by parents (for one a parent purchases the refreshments, for one an e-mail is sent out by a parent assigning a catagory of dishes for pot-luck and for one the parents do the cooking on grill).  However, the Court of Honor is run by the SPL and the other scouts.  Where the SM and ASM used to talk about outings, the ranking leader on the trip talks about it (an adult used to do this).

 

For outings, the PLC comes up with ideas for activities and I find places we can do that in my role as the ASM in charge of outings.  I make the reservations.  I send out the e-mail to scouts and parents and prepare the permission slip.  The SPL announces the activities at the meeting and collects the permission slips and checks (an adult used to do this).  On outings, we have a PLC meeting when we arrive on Friday night and discuss the plan for the weekend.  The adults to off to our own campsite and the boys are in charge for the rest of the weekend

 

For PLC meetings, the SM and ASMs guide the boys as to what they need to do to select themes and guide the SPL as to what should be covered.  The boys run the meetings and the adults only chime in when asked.  The adults publish the calendar which has the monthly themes, the COH dates and the dates of the outings. Our weekly meetings are run by the SPL (for the beginning) and the PLs (for the breakouts) and one PL and his patrol for troop activitiy. 

 

 

 

The length of the transition would depend on a lot of factors.  You identified a large factor -- leadership buy-in.  You need the SM, CC and ASMs on the same page.  Next, you need parent buy-in.  One factor is the number of scouts in the troop and their ages.  Much easier for a smaller group of younger scouts.  A lot more difficult for an existing troop with a variety of ages and over 50 scouts.  In those circumstances, I can tell you that it is a transition and the goal is to keep moving along that continum.

 

The question really is what do you see that provides the boys with real opportunities for leadership.  And yet the question for me is are the items marked in red providing opportunities for the boys or taking them away?  I could have used blue, but we are talking about red flags here. 

 

You identified a large factor -- leadership buy-in.  You need the SM, CC and ASMs on the same page.  Next, you need parent buy-in.  And where's the boy-buy in?  The factors that are then listed are not as much factors as adult rationale for maintaining the adult status quo.  As long as the adults keep doing what they are doing, there's absolutely no incentive for the boys to change.

[Hedgehog 334]

 

The question really is what do you see that provides the boys with real opportunities for leadership.  And yet the question for me is are the items marked in red providing opportunities for the boys or taking them away?  I could have used blue, but we are talking about red flags here. 

 

You identified a large factor -- leadership buy-in.  You need the SM, CC and ASMs on the same page.  Next, you need parent buy-in.  And where's the boy-buy in?  The factors that are then listed are not as much factors as adult rationale for maintaining the adult status quo.  As long as the adults keep doing what they are doing, there's absolutely no incentive for the boys to change.

 

Stosh:

 

As you know, I don't disagree with your assessment.  In a perfect world, the boys would be doing those tasks.  I'd love the boys to take those roles.  However, I'm a believer in gradual change and picking and choosing how to best move the troop along the continum toward being more boy led.  

 

I'd rather have the boys packing the patrol gear for campouts (as they do now) rather then the adults packing the gear for the troop (as it was before).  Getting that done is more important then having the boys (rather than the adults)  sending out an email about who btings a main course, salad or dessert for the Court of Honor.  I'd rather have an adult led meeting at the beginning of the campout and then let the boys lead for the rest of the weekend rather then having the adults leading every step of the way for the whole weekend.  I'd rather the boys come up with ideas for outings and do research myself regarding availability and cost (as we do now) than have the adult committee decide on the outings based on what they think the bpoys would like (as it used to be).  I'd rather the boys show leadership in developing the themes and plans for the meetings than show managerial competence in typing up and e-mailing the calendar.  I realize that in each of these areas there is a next step that the  boys can take and that will come in time.

 

As for boy buy-in, they buy into the idea of being boy-led and are developing the skills needed to implement it.  The SM and I noted on a past campout how different it was from three years ago in that most of the boys who were there don't remember when we weren't as boy-led on outings.  Our troop sells itself as boy led.  The boys like that the weekly meetings are completely boy led.  The new crossovers are amazed that the adults camp away from the boys and that the adults dont tell them when to go to sleep, when to wake up, when to cook or when to do dishes, etc.

 

What I"m trying to get across is that incremental change toward being more and more boy led is possible and that it is an alternative to announcing that the troop is all of a sudden boy led and having the adults suddenly step completely out of the picture.  I suspect that for many troops, a sudden change would collapse the troop and cause boy-led to fail -- giving a pursuasive argument to those that want an adult led troop.  Instead, my approach offers a list of victories for the boy-led philosophy which then allow the adult leaders to move the troop even further on the boy-led continum because it creates more buy-in among the adult leaders, the parents and provides confidence to the boys.  And yes, I said that the adult leaders move the troop to more boy-led.  That is the contraction -- having a strong boy led troop takes strong adult leaders.

 

Much of this dicussion reminds me of the quip "it works in practice but doesn't work in theory...." (attributed to Former Fed Chairman Bernake).  What we are doing with out troop does work in practice, but fails in theory ("your not boy led because the adults still do things for the boys").

 

 

 

 

Edited February 8, 2016 by Hedgehog

[Stosh 3452]

@@Hedgehog

 

I wasn't trying to be judgmental, just point out areas that are obviously noticed and need work on.  In another thread I took heat for suggesting that the Scribe work with the Committee Treasurer so as to involve the POR more closely to a boy-led operation.  Finances should not be the exclusive domain of the adults.  So here one has a boy and an adult associating together on a common task.  The committee treasurer is doing more than just keeping the books, but is also involved in teaching the boys how to keep the books.

 

Everyone of the highlighted areas I pointed out seemed to imply an adult was currently doing these tasks, and my highlights were there to simply ask the question WHY?  Why aren't each of these currently adult tasks not being introduced and worked with a corresponding youth component so that the boys get a chance to see how these often back ground tasks get done in a troop.  Then after the training is done, then turn it over to the boys completely.  This fits very well into your "change comes slowly" emphasis that has been occurring in units moving towards boy-led.

 

It is totally unfair to all of a sudden wake up and without any idea of what is expected, get a job out of the blue.  As an adult, I wouldn't like it, as a youth, it's a recipe for failure.

 

It's rather ironic that we spend a lot of time in Emergency Prep MB setting up lines of communication in case of an emergency when it is only simple logic that that same system can be used to set up a COH pot luck!  Instead we have adults doing their own thing and the boy designing systems that will never be used.  Seems kinda strange from where I sit.  Your mileage may vary. 

[Hedgehog 334]

@@Hedgehog

 

Everyone of the highlighted areas I pointed out seemed to imply an adult was currently doing these tasks, and my highlights were there to simply ask the question WHY?  Why aren't each of these currently adult tasks not being introduced and worked with a corresponding youth component so that the boys get a chance to see how these often back ground tasks get done in a troop.  Then after the training is done, then turn it over to the boys completely.  This fits very well into your "change comes slowly" emphasis that has been occurring in units moving towards boy-led.

 

 

Again, I'm not disagreeing with you.  We've talked about this before and I think you understand where I'm coming from.  I also understand that you are pointing those items out to have me (and others) think about what more can be done.  I realize there is still a lot of work to do but for me, the "WHY" is a matter of focusing on what are the most important changes and then accepting that some functions will still be handled by adults -- at least in the short term.

 

The next change is to have the older boys work with the younger guys in developing menus for campouts.  After that, it is having the boys do the research to find the outdoor adventures -- where to camp and what activities to do.  After that is to get the other POR positions better defined and have an ASPL work with the boys in making the most of those positions.  I've got a list with ten more priorities.

 

Somewhere in there, we get 10 new crossovers which makes the PLs and APLs jobs more difficult.  Then we have elections and start the learning curve again with a new SPL, new ASPL, new PLs and new APLs.  Fortunately, each year the starting point is a little further ahead the start point for the prior year (but well behind the ending point for the prior leaders).  Oh yeah, we also get a new group of parents and adult leaders which need to be indoctrinated in what it means for a troop to be boy led  -- otherwise, a well meaning adult can trample years of work by trying to be helpful.

 

It is a gradual process and we need to recognize the progress we make along the boy-led continium but not forget that we have more miles to travel.

[Stosh 3452]

Somewhere in there, we get 10 new crossovers which makes the PLs and APLs jobs more difficult.  Then we have elections and start the learning curve again with a new SPL, new ASPL, new PLs and new APLs.

 

  Knowing this occurs every year should be an indicator that this process is not the best.  I my troops the 10 newbies would be put into two patrols with a TG and a couple experienced boys who step up to help.  This isn't all that difficult because it usually is an APL who isn't getting POR credit and would like a chance to PL a patrol.  It also means that whoever steps up to PL the new patrols assumes one of the top positions in the troop.  This of course is the case if that's what the boys want, but this way the impact of new people affects just the new patrols and not everyone in the troop.  Boys tend t like things to stay pretty much the same.  One or two boys moving around doesn't really disrupt much.  Then we aslo don't do elections either so that "learning curve" is never a problem, especially at the transition time of cross-overs. 

 

Is this cycle of new boys and learning curve elections something that is etched in stone for the unit? or can the boys go with something less disruptive?

 

I kinda prefer the less dramatic approach. 

[blw2 433]

This thread really took a turn from what my original thought was.... but hey, that perfectly ok with me.  Maybe it was my fault for not presenting my vision well, or maybe not.... either way it's just natural conversation shift....

& Regardless, it's still very useful!

 

I attended my 1st committee mtg recently, and I'm very encouraged.  It very much is a transitional thing as people shift at different rates in getting on the same page.  In my case there's still some adults doing what a scout could do (and perhaps should do), but it's clear that the SM has a great vision and the committee is on board with the idea.... 

 

The boys are having their elections tonight, on a 6-month cycle.  I'm not sure how I feel about that exactly, but as with most all of this I'm seriously reserving judgement.  Overall my troops seems to maybe be more or less where hedgehog's is regarding all of this.

[Hedgehog 334]

  Knowing this occurs every year should be an indicator that this process is not the best. 

 

 

The boys tried the NSP last year and decided that it didn't work.  The new scouts cross over at different times, so it was difficult for the older scouts to teach any skills because in two weeks three more scouts would arrive.  Also, the new scouts kept asking why they weren't allowed to be with the rest of the troop.  The new scouts want to hang out with the older boys -- that is the fun part of joining boy scouts.

 

The PLs and APLs have to adjust a bit to accomidate the new scouts.  It becomes a little bit more difficult to keep the patrol focused and on task.  It seems like the guys who have been around for a year and have matured just revert back to being Webelos.  We now have the older boys who are in the JASM and ASM (18 year old Eagles) roles provide coaching and support to the PLs and APLs so that they have strategies for handling the addition of scouts to their patrols.

 

Then we aslo don't do elections either so that "learning curve" is never a problem, especially at the transition time of cross-overs. 

 

Elections are in June, at the end of the school year.  So it isn't at the same time as the crossover, but three months later.  In the progression of leadership, the Assistant Patrol Leaders tend to become Patrol Leaders and the Patrol Leaders tend to become SPL or ASPL or Guides.  The SPL and ASPL usually become JASMs.  

 

Is this cycle of new boys and learning curve elections something that is etched in stone for the unit? or can the boys go with something less disruptive?

 

The crossing over is set in stone based on the four Packs Blue and Gold ceremonies that send us scouts.  We can change how we integrate them and that is a problem the boys are working on (as noted above with them trying the NSP last year and deciding after three weeks that it wasn't working).

 

Elections and patrol composition are another issue all together (although I suspect you would say and I would acknowledge that it is very intertwined with boy-led).  The way those are done are sacred cows on our troop.  As long as I'm only an ASM, I can only lay the foundation for a change in the future.

[Eagledad 2779]

 

The boys tried the NSP last year and decided that it didn't work.  The new scouts cross over at different times, so it was difficult for the older scouts to teach any skills because in two weeks three more scouts would arrive.  Also, the new scouts kept asking why they weren't allowed to be with the rest of the troop.  The new scouts want to hang out with the older boys -- that is the fun part of joining boy scouts.

 

 

Of all the problems that were created from the induction of NSPs, this was my number one struggle. See, I came from the sixties and seventies where scouts joined a troop as soon as they qualified by age or Cub scout advancement, so troops received new scouts 1 or 2 at a time all year long. It wasn't a hardship on the patrol because they started teaching the new scout skills as soon as he joined. As new leaders starting a new troop in the 90s, we were trying to build our troop from the memories of our youth experiences and the Webelos crossing over by Dens threw a huge wrinkle at us. After a few years and loosing a lot of first scouts, we eventually figured out how to make it work for a boy run troop. I know it can work, but the NSP is a challenge for the boy run program. The NSP system changed a lot of traditions that are here to stay even if troops don't use the NSP in their program.

 

Barry

Edited February 9, 2016 by Eagledad

[Stosh 3452]

 

The boys tried the NSP last year and decided that it didn't work.  The new scouts cross over at different times, so it was difficult for the older scouts to teach any skills because in two weeks three more scouts would arrive.  Also, the new scouts kept asking why they weren't allowed to be with the rest of the troop.  The new scouts want to hang out with the older boys -- that is the fun part of joining boy scouts.

 

It sounds as if the boys are coming at different times and from different packs.  The dynamics of a cohesive existing den then doesn't apply.  At that point whatever works would be the better option.  Hanging out with the older boys means less work for them as well.  The older boys are seen as a more "adult" like figure at that point.

 

The PLs and APLs have to adjust a bit to accomidate the new scouts.  It becomes a little bit more difficult to keep the patrol focused and on task.  It seems like the guys who have been around for a year and have matured just revert back to being Webelos.  We now have the older boys who are in the JASM and ASM (18 year old Eagles) roles provide coaching and support to the PLs and APLs so that they have strategies for handling the addition of scouts to their patrols.

 

    Yeah, the older boys reverting back is just as popular as the younger boys stepping up.  Varies from one group to the next.  I have only on a rare occasion used an SPL and I have never had a JASM.  The use of the JASM here sounds like an older scout taking away the duties of the TG and SPL...  The young ASM's are still just that, adults and need to appreciate their roll in working the boys into leading, guiding and mentoring themselves just like any other adult.  It's really difficult to break these boys away from their buddies and not just see themselves as another one of the boys.

 

Elections are in June, at the end of the school year.  So it isn't at the same time as the crossover, but three months later.  In the progression of leadership, the Assistant Patrol Leaders tend to become Patrol Leaders and the Patrol Leaders tend to become SPL or ASPL or Guides.  The SPL and ASPL usually become JASMs.  

 

Sounds more like a forgone conclusion rather than an election...usually.    My boys serve in these positions if they deem them necessary.    The highest position in my troops have been the PL's.  They hang on to the PL position and the best route to getting a position as to being a PL themselves has been to make oneself available to the new patrols needing leadership.  When the PL's felt it necessary to have an SPL, surprisingly they were most often selected from those serving in the APL position.  After all they were the PL's right-hand man in the patrol and if they served the PL well, he was recommended to be the SPL to continue that service to the PL's but in the liaison be PL's and SM rather than PL's and patrol.   On the surface it looks as if the PL's were the leaders in the troop, but some of the best leadership came out of the LC of support roles.  Those that were Eagles got to make themselves available to whatever position they wanted.  It was easy to place them.  A new group of Webelos boys shows up, There's an Eagle available to be their PL, or TG.  Or the Eagle could simply stay with his patrol and hang out with his buddies.  Of course once a couple of Eagles make it to the LC for a permanent position, the buddies aspired to Eagle to get back into their little grouping.  It was the one area the boys found that they could operate without the younger boys.

 

The crossing over is set in stone based on the four Packs Blue and Gold ceremonies that send us scouts.  We can change how we integrate them and that is a problem the boys are working on (as noted above with them trying the NSP last year and deciding after three weeks that it wasn't working).

 

A three week trial period is a joke for any issue, not just NSP....   It is also indicated that a new group came in about 3 weeks apart.  Doesn't sound like it was given a whole lot of effort.  I have found that if the decision to try is approved and everyone is convinced it won't work, it probably will take only about 3 weeks of effort before everyone gives up.    I have 3 packs that we can get boys from and their B&G's are all different too.  We just have them stay in Cub Scouts until after spring Pinewood Derbies are finished and then do a Boy Scout cross-over at the end of the school year.  They do participate in the Boy Scout program as guests, work on their AOL and get a feel for everything in the troop and then take over in the new patrol after cross-over.  They have then had a chance to see how things work before they have the option of how they want to run with it.  Some boys go with the older patrols if there is room but most prefer their own patrol.  There is the fact that while yet Cub Scouts, the adults do work heavily with this group of boys during the Feb-June time period getting them ready to be able to lead themselves.  This was one of the things that worked well when I was doing my WB ticket.  Adults from a troop go into the Webelos program and work with the boys in the transition period.

 

Elections and patrol composition are another issue all together (although I suspect you would say and I would acknowledge that it is very intertwined with boy-led).  The way those are done are sacred cows on our troop.  As long as I'm only an ASM, I can only lay the foundation for a change in the future.

 

Sacred cow for the boys or the adults?  That might be another area of youth/adult clash, it isn't clear from the comment.

 

One other thing, the new Webeols/AOL program seems to emphasize the same requirements as Scout and TF.  If one is working on the AOL program with adult-led learning Feb-June, the things simply are a walk through for Scout and TF after June.  But the second time around they do it as self-led...

Edited February 9, 2016 by Stosh

[Hedgehog 334]

@@Stosh, the integrating new scouts to the troop has been the boy leader's problem to solve.  We have boys coming from at least three Packs (last two years it was four Packs) from February through the end of March or even April (after the School District's spring break).  Last year the boys wanted to try the NSP idea because they thought that it would help the Patrol Leaders by eliminating a disruption. The idea was to keep the NSP until the June Court of Honor.  The leaders of the NSP was the former SPL and ASLP (who are with the troop as 18 year-old Eagle ASMs).  They found it difficult to control that much concentrated energy and excitement.  The new scouts started asking as soon as the second week they were there when they could "really join Boy Scouts" and "be part of a real patrol."  It takes a lot for a boy to admit that their idea isn't working and when they do, I listen.  They changed the idea and instead worked with the scouts for two weeks to get the Scout badge / rank.  Then the boys are integrated with a patrol.   I suspect that issue will come up at the next PLC because we are expecting boys to cross over shortly.

 

As for the scared cow of the elections and patrol assignments, it grew out of the boys idea to have mixed age patrols because the boys that were in charge remembered when they were new scouts and were treated like second class citizens by the older scouts.  Way elections are run and the way patrols are assigned is an outgrowth of that but is an adult scared cow which the boys have learned to accept as being the "best way" because the adults said so.  I've been sowing the seeds of doubt in the scouts by pointing out advantages and disadvantages.  Again, like other changes, I have a plan to make gradual changes that move in the right direction without declaring an open coup d' etat.  It's like boiling a frog.  If you throw a frog in boiling water, it will jump out.  If you gradually increase the temperature of the water, you will have very fresh boiled frog legs.

 

This seems to have gotten a little off topic.  My point was that the changing dynamics of a troop with changes in leadership, boys aging out and new boys joining sometimes will stall progress toward boy-led.  The new leaders have a learning curve where it is easy for an adult to jump in to help.  The new scouts are learning to be independent and it is easy for them to look for an adult for leadership.  Even new parents mean well but can undo progress by simply being helpful.  Boy led is not intuitive for the adults or the boys.  It has to be nurtured and encouraged and protected.  And yes, sometimes it requires adults to scheme to overthrow scared cows.

[CA Scout Mom 9]

Well, we're working toward being boy-led.  There was a crop of Scouts who Eagled out and then due to lack of recruitment, there were just 6-8 Scouts left in troop and of those, the Venture Crew keeps poaching them.  Due to some significant recruitment efforts, we just bridged over about 8 Scouts this past summer from my son's Webelo Den (helped that I was Den Leader, haha!) and now we have three or four older Scouts (including SPL and sometimes the ASPL) there to guide the new Scouts at any given troop meeting but they are outnumbered.  So, while we're trying to be boy-led, frankly, it's been a bit tricky b/c even the older Scouts, barring the SPL and ASPL, are not that much older.  But, we're working toward being as boy-led as possible.  It's a work in progress...